De-valuing live music...

[ironside1966]

I like to see talented people, whether in a film, play, original or covers band.
A good band is a good band.

A cover band as a rule tends to play songs that are popular, to eight a song that is popular takes a lot of talent, whether musicians think its naff or not.

[OldGit]

Oh and you may have been lurking for a while before joining and seen this thread but if you want to really go into the orginals vs covers you may like to spend a few weeks reading these marathons:

Function band vs integrity ramblings,
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20617&hl=covers"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...7&hl=covers[/url]

Does playing covers sap your imagination and playing
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21757&hl=covers"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...7&hl=covers[/url]

[ironside1966]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='237955' date='Jul 12 2008, 02:40 PM']To go along with my Sky music rant, I have one more that relates to music...playing it live to be precise.

"Semi-professionals" who seriously undermine and devalue live music by playing gigs (I'm predominantly talking function type gigs or background music etc, not originals) for £20-£30 each as of course they can afford to do this as they are well paid in their careers.

I did a gig the other week and the bar manager says he can get a 6 piece for the money we did as a trio (£150) £50 each for 1h 30 mins straight through, which should have been two 45 min sets (never mind the cost of getting to and from the gig) and they are ""much better". Well, everyone I played with knows that isn't true, they aren't "much better" because they can't really play very well, but yes they have amazing gear, but this is about it when it comes to their set.

It's hard enough making it as a working musician, but to be expected to do a gig for £15 and a meal is a joke to be honest.

Does this bother anyone else? Are you somebody that does this? Is it actually just bar managers that are idiots!?

Generally interested in peoples opinions from both sides of the fence.[/quote]


I worked as a sound engineer for quite a few years. I found that there are a lot of hobbyist willing to work for very little and universality grads either expecting unrealistic wages or willing to work cheap or for free to gain experience.
This didn’t really affect me, as pro units need pro people and can’t take chances, I would expect it is the same with musicians as well.

[umph]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='238173' date='Jul 12 2008, 08:32 PM']Lets all move to Canada.[/quote]
smoke lots of pot everybody move to canada right now?

[OldGit]

[quote name='umph' post='238270' date='Jul 12 2008, 11:54 PM']smoke lots of pot everybody move to canada right now?[/quote]

Will that get me out of going to 'nam?
(Chippen'nam)

[spike]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='237955' date='Jul 12 2008, 02:40 PM']To go along with my Sky music rant, I have one more that relates to music...playing it live to be precise.

"Semi-professionals" who seriously undermine and devalue live music by playing gigs (I'm predominantly talking function type gigs or background music etc, not originals) for £20-£30 each as of course they can afford to do this as they are well paid in their careers.

I did a gig the other week and the bar manager says he can get a 6 piece for the money we did as a trio (£150) £50 each for 1h 30 mins straight through, which should have been two 45 min sets (never mind the cost of getting to and from the gig) and they are ""much better". Well, everyone I played with knows that isn't true, they aren't "much better" because they can't really play very well, but yes they have amazing gear, but this is about it when it comes to their set.

It's hard enough making it as a working musician, but to be expected to do a gig for £15 and a meal is a joke to be honest.

Does this bother anyone else? Are you somebody that does this? Is it actually just bar managers that are idiots!?

Generally interested in peoples opinions from both sides of the fence.[/quote]

This sort of thing happens in most businesses, not just live music. There will always be someone prepared to do the job for less than you need to charge to stay in business. One way around the problem is to market yourself or your band. Part of that involves targeting the right customers to sell your services to, the bar manager who is happy paying £150 for a band isn't the right customer for you.

[Alun]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='237997' date='Jul 12 2008, 03:22 PM']We play British Legion and CIU type clubs for about £300 less agents fee's, for a 3 peice band. The singer can get £200 on his own on the same circuit singing the same songs and playing the same guitar to backing tracks. I dont declare it .....[/quote]

Uh, you just did. To the entire Internet browsing world

[bass_ferret]

Yes - its a good job I didn't include my NI number.

[ARGH]

Its not whats being played,its weather its got punters in the door,buying pints.

If your gonna slag off covers fair enough,but Ive seen sh*te onstage playing whatever,covers,originals,it didnt matter,it was sterile crap,and just because you play originals only,does not give you a godgiven right to an automatic audience or cash,if you are good you get rebooked,if you aint,you wont,its as simple as.

I bemoan that all I do is covers,yet one look at partysounds in my area and theres FAR more places for coverswork rather than originals bands,in fact Ive threaded about my dissapointment about 'Original' musicians,being total flakes or blowouts,with crappy gear,no idea that what sounds good in a bedroom dosent always translate to the stage......its a totally different environment.

Regardless of this,I would rather see a good originals band,but Ive yet to see anything in the last 3 years that isnt a copycat or clone or soundalike of summat Ive seen or heard already thats signed.....and then theres stage persona,Im not looking for Sinatra,but I wouldnt mind watching a band that dosent copy DOWN TO THE HAIRCUT,their heros.

Good bands,get paid,and get paid what they ask. My lot wont play for £180 anymore,its £200-250+ now for a pub,Functions can command whatever,Weddings more so.

Edited July 13, 2008 by ARGH

[MananaMan]

Hi OldGit et al,

Thanks for the welcome. Been floating around on the forum for a while, never really bothered to get involved... not sure why, just lazy I guess.

In response to the (somewhat patronising, if you'll beg my pardon) suggestion of running the WMCs for 2 years minimum, been there, done that - although I've always played originals. When I was 16 I was playing most weekends on the pub & club circuit pk it playing a 50/50 mix of covers and originals, we built several sets for various gigs and were earning £250 a show minimum. Did that for a couple of years, then everyone went off to Uni.
When I was at Uni I did the whole student rock band thing for two years, playing mostly originals with the odd super-cheesy cover thrown in for "crowd pleasing" effect (Video Killed The Radio Star.... yuck!)
Eventually I got sick of playing music that had no meaning, it was making me feel totally at a loss musically (similar to ARGH's current dilemma, see other thread about that...). As I'd trained as a sound engineer I started doing sound full time and quit the band stuff. I worked at a local music venue, original music only 5 nights a week. In the early days there were some pretty ropey acts on, but it got better as they built up a reputation with the booking agents. Three years on from that, I worked out I'd seen something like 1500-2000 bands play, and I had developed a keen desire to play again... just as my mate's band folded, I knew he was a great frontman, we started the band the same week and never looked back.

(for those interested, www.myspace.com/mrmanana)

What I've found is that it takes great songs to get a crowd going. Nothing more, nothing less. We don't have a "show" to be precise, we are all into the music and kind of bop along at the appropriate moments, but the set is powered by the songs, the sound of the band and the quality of performance. It always makes me cringe when a band that is light on quality songs tries to make up for it with some rock posturing they've learnt from watching DVDs...

I have total faith in the band I'm playing in, we're great and nd slowly but surely we'll show the rest of the country that, even though at the moment it seems like we're doing it one person at a time! What is annoying though is that people that play in covers bands that probably don't have to put half the work in that we do are going out and getting 300 quid a night. Having worked the pubs and clubs as a sound engineer for a local PA company I've also seen a lot of cover / tribute bands some of them have been pretty good and most of them are lovely people. I just don't see any real artistic merit in it.

I don't think you can really count the Stax / Motwon bands as they were formed to play music written for them to play backing for whichever "face" they were promoting at the time. As for the Stones and Presley etc., they were bringing "black:" music of America to the white masses at a very different time in the world. I doubt any band playing a cover of Welcome To The Jungle can be said to be bringing a new and unique musical style to the WMC! Its a very very different kettle of m musical fish.

[ianrunci]

[quote name='MananaMan' post='238669' date='Jul 13 2008, 06:23 PM']Hi OldGit et al,

Thanks for the welcome. Been floating around on the forum for a while, never really bothered to get involved... not sure why, just lazy I guess.

In response to the (somewhat patronising, if you'll beg my pardon) suggestion of running the WMCs for 2 years minimum, been there, done that - although I've always played originals. When I was 16 I was playing most weekends on the pub & club circuit pk it playing a 50/50 mix of covers and originals, we built several sets for various gigs and were earning £250 a show minimum. Did that for a couple of years, then everyone went off to Uni.
When I was at Uni I did the whole student rock band thing for two years, playing mostly originals with the odd super-cheesy cover thrown in for "crowd pleasing" effect (Video Killed The Radio Star.... yuck!)
Eventually I got sick of playing music that had no meaning, it was making me feel totally at a loss musically (similar to ARGH's current dilemma, see other thread about that...). As I'd trained as a sound engineer I started doing sound full time and quit the band stuff. I worked at a local music venue, original music only 5 nights a week. In the early days there were some pretty ropey acts on, but it got better as they built up a reputation with the booking agents. Three years on from that, I worked out I'd seen something like 1500-2000 bands play, and I had developed a keen desire to play again... just as my mate's band folded, I knew he was a great frontman, we started the band the same week and never looked back.

(for those interested, www.myspace.com/mrmanana)

What I've found is that it takes great songs to get a crowd going. Nothing more, nothing less. We don't have a "show" to be precise, we are all into the music and kind of bop along at the appropriate moments, but the set is powered by the songs, the sound of the band and the quality of performance. It always makes me cringe when a band that is light on quality songs tries to make up for it with some rock posturing they've learnt from watching DVDs...

I have total faith in the band I'm playing in, we're great and nd slowly but surely we'll show the rest of the country that, even though at the moment it seems like we're doing it one person at a time! What is annoying though is that people that play in covers bands that probably don't have to put half the work in that we do are going out and getting 300 quid a night. Having worked the pubs and clubs as a sound engineer for a local PA company I've also seen a lot of cover / tribute bands some of them have been pretty good and most of them are lovely people. I just don't see any real artistic merit in it.

I don't think you can really count the Stax / Motwon bands as they were formed to play music written for them to play backing for whichever "face" they were promoting at the time. As for the Stones and Presley etc., they were bringing "black:" music of America to the white masses at a very different time in the world. I doubt any band playing a cover of Welcome To The Jungle can be said to be bringing a new and unique musical style to the WMC! Its a very very different kettle of m musical fish.[/quote]

I think what your missing here is that most successful function bands and pub rock cover bands tend to be manned by people in their 30s and 40s. Many of whom did the whole original band thing when they were younger. I myself was on the verge of taking off several times in my youth with bands.

However if you havent made it by the time your in your mid 30s then it is fairly certain that the horse has bolted. Unfortunately I am a musician, music has been my whole life and I don't see why I should retire just because I am in my 40s. As far as I am concerned I would rather go out and play functions and weddings than sit in my bedroom playing.

And personally I think good cover bands are worth the money they are paid. people pay to see people display the skills tey have spent many years perfecting. Would you rather they paid 300 to a DJ to play CD's?

There is room for both cover bands and originals, I also think your well wide of the mark when you say cover bands and tribute bands don't have to put the same amount of work in as original bands. I think they often put in much more

[molan]

[quote name='MananaMan' post='238669' date='Jul 13 2008, 06:23 PM']As for the Stones and Presley etc., they were bringing "black:" music of America to the white masses at a very different time in the world. I doubt any band playing a cover of Welcome To The Jungle can be said to be bringing a new and unique musical style to the WMC! Its a very very different kettle of m musical fish.[/quote]

I realise this is moving slightly off topic now but how about if the band playing "Welcome to the Jungle" were African playing to an audience that rarely listened to white music?

No different from Elvis taking a black blue song & playing to white people who wouldn't entertain the thought of listening to "coloured" music?

[BigRedX]

You've got to remember that "covers" encompasses a wide spectrum from Tribute bands who look and sound as close as possible to the original band through to acts who re-imagine tracks in such a way that only the lyrics and the vocal melody bear a passing resemblance to the original.

Also I don't think that passing 30 counts you out from being successful with original music. It may close the door to pop and rock superstardom but it can open a whole other range of musics -just take a look at Wire magazine if you don't believe me.

[OldGit]

MananaMan said "In response to the (somewhat patronising, if you'll beg my pardon) suggestion of running the WMCs for 2 years minimum..."

I really must remember to add a winking smiley when I'm being tongue in cheek
Oh and I'm known for being patronising

You found out how to do it and you now do a show - your way. I bet you are confident on stage, play well, relate to your audience and work hard to build a following.

I was replying to the OP who is in a totally different place.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='OldGit' post='238798' date='Jul 13 2008, 10:22 PM']I was replying to the OP who is in a totally different place.[/quote]

Am I? Where am I? arrrgh, I'm back in Milton Keynes!

Also some good points brought up in here, the whole covers vs originals was bound to come up at some point.

I have obviously done my fair share of gigs as favours, for a burger, for stupid money considering distance etc but recently I've just been thinking why sell yourself short. As said, I'm not going to go out for less than I think I should, if I get the gigs great, if I don't, nobodys time is wasted. I feel that I have a value for what i bring to the music, thats why we put all the graft into be as "good" as we can be. Maybe as I said earlier the other bands/musicians etc put their value lower for whatever reasons, but in general, I'm not sure its good overall. Although as it has been said, the work (at what level you want to play/pay) is out there if you want to get it. And of course, I won't be playig at the establishment that made me type the original post.

[markytbass]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='237955' date='Jul 12 2008, 02:40 PM']To go along with my Sky music rant, I have one more that relates to music...playing it live to be precise.

"Semi-professionals" who seriously undermine and devalue live music by playing gigs (I'm predominantly talking function type gigs or background music etc, not originals) for £20-£30 each as of course they can afford to do this as they are well paid in their careers.

I did a gig the other week and the bar manager says he can get a 6 piece for the money we did as a trio (£150) £50 each for 1h 30 mins straight through, which should have been two 45 min sets (never mind the cost of getting to and from the gig) and they are ""much better". Well, everyone I played with knows that isn't true, they aren't "much better" because they can't really play very well, but yes they have amazing gear, but this is about it when it comes to their set.

It's hard enough making it as a working musician, but to be expected to do a gig for £15 and a meal is a joke to be honest.

Does this bother anyone else? Are you somebody that does this? Is it actually just bar managers that are idiots!?

Generally interested in peoples opinions from both sides of the fence.[/quote]

It depends on what you define as a semi-pro band. I know a few people with day jobs who play in bands in the evenings and weekends who get paid more than I would get for doing overtime. I would class them as semi-pro. I have done those gigs for £20-30 which due to the car I was driving at the time was mere diesel money. I didn't make any profit so didn't class myself as being semi-pro, more amature.

Since moving to the North of England I've seen more live music in the last 2 years than the last 10. It didn't take me long to see which venues pay well and which didn't. The amature bands that ive been in either played at open mic nights or did the £20-30 gigs. At the end of the day if I were in a semi-pro band I wouldn't even bother turning up for that money but until I am I will.

The good venues tend to be picky about who plays and for the money they pay I don't blame them. The thing that amazes me is that one venue charges £13 to get in then 2 weeks later you can see the same band in the same town for £5.

[wateroftyne]

Wow... everyone round here is really down about stuff these days.

To the OP - some people play in bands because it's a social event. All they ask for in return is a few quid to cover petrol and beer. I know some bands like this who are bloody good at it, too.

Maybe you should get yourself a 'normal' job that pays the bills, and get yourself in the same boat.

Just sayin'.

[OldGit]

[quote name='markytbass' post='238837' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:13 PM']The thing that amazes me is that one venue charges £13 to get in then 2 weeks later you can see the same band in the same town for £5.[/quote]

It's band's responsibility to avoid that happening.
If you want to bring a whole load of mates/followers to an "important" gig to impress a booker, agent, whatever, and that gig charges money on the door then manage things so that you don't play the same town for a few weeks either side of that gig, and certainly not for free.

[OldGit]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='238838' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:13 PM']To the OP - some people play in bands because it's a social event. All they ask for in return is a few quid to cover petrol and beer. I know some bands like this who are bloody good at it, too.[/quote]

In our market - Barn Dances for all sorts of events - there are bands going out for free, beer and tabs money, through to fat agency fees. We get agents offering us £1000 so we know they are charging £1500, or whatever, to the punter ....
We tell the potential punter they can find a cheaper outfit, and how to do that, if they can't afford us.

You can get a fab band for a party for £100 because those people would rather play for beer and tabs money than sit in watching the hex-factor.
As WOT says, it's a social event and some of the players would be out in a session in some pub and paying for teh privilege..

I play for free sometimes too, I even shell out to drive 200 miles to play for free if the craic or cause is right 'cos I love playing. Originals, covers, jam sessions, guest spots, whatever
The fees I earn from the band (after tax and expenses) just off set the costs of doing charity and free gigs and it's not my main source of income.

[spinynorman]

There's a small club near where I live that mostly books touring tribute bands, "60s reunion" bands, or touring blues bands. Tickets are £15-25 and these people will pack the place every time, and any that don't won't get another booking. "Originals" night is Tuesday, three bands a time, bands almost fight to play and they get paid - nothing. From what I can tell from people I know (in their 20s) in originals bands, there's no real money in it unless you've got an agent or label behind you.

Thing is, it's no good blaming cover bands, tribute bands, bands-that-used-to-be-good-in-the-60s, venues or promoters for the way things are. The only people you can really blame are the paying public, who want to go out on Friday and Saturday night and drink (and talk loudly) over a live band that's doing stuff they've heard before, so they don't really need to listen.

The other thing is, just because the bar manager tells you he can get the Count Basie Orchestra for £150 doesn't mean he can.

[ARGH]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='238838' date='Jul 13 2008, 11:13 PM']Wow... everyone round here is really down about stuff these days.[/quote]

Its the fuel,credit crunch thing,people are being stiffed at gigs,and theres not a lot of hope/money about.
I only do the covers for money,not really love anymore,but as a single,live alone,Morgage,Garden,Garage,Car...y'know...the most taxed person on the bracket,the chance to earn ANYTHING that stops the red letter through the door is most welcome,and often has been a lifesaver,without coverswork,I would not have been able to feed,fuel,clothe,myself or keep a roof over mine and my loved ones heads (and buy some decent gear).

but it sucks,esp when Managers that promise you £250,and the place is packed,'dissappear upstairs' and leave £180 on the side for the staff to pay you....

ANY COVERS PLAYER IN YORKSHIRE KNOWS THE VENUE IM TALKING ABOUT!

[Cantdosleepy]

[quote name='Jase' post='238133' date='Jul 12 2008, 07:11 PM']But what I reckon really devalues live music ( nothing to do with OG ).......the amount of utter sh*te bands that are out there, the amount of bands that'll play for bugger all, the amount of bands that shouldn't even be out there!!!
The live music scene is littered with "bands" everyone's in a band...everyone's got a guitar [/quote]

Couldn't agree more, Jase. What we need is some kind of licencing system. I can't believe that just anybody can buy an instrument and start having fun with music. Don't these people realise that mediocre cover bands want to be paid more money????? The nerve of these people with 'guitars' forming 'bands'.

But we need some kind of authority who has the power to decide who is allowed to play music. Who could have the moral authority to stop our fair venues being 'littered' with bands, driving down the vital expenses of Mustang-Sally-playing pub rockers? Perhaps you, Jase, could be our arbiter of taste?

[Bilbo]

Its all down to the venues - they book what pulls the punters in. This applies to jazz as much as it does anything else. I was talking to some poeple last night who are booking a jazz band next year to coincide with a local jazz festival. They have no idea what or who they will book and couldn't recognise a lemon if it was geoid and yellow. They just want to pull in some passing trade. They are trying to earn a living too.

I'm semi-pro and would go out for £50 but only if its good music. If its tosh it's £80 minimum

[blamelouis]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='238950' date='Jul 14 2008, 10:04 AM']Its all down to the venues - they book what pulls the punters in. This applies to jazz as much as it does anything else. I was talking to some poeple last night who are booking a jazz band next year to coincide with a local jazz festival. They have no idea what or who they will book and couldn't recognise a lemon if it was geoid and yellow. They just want to pull in some passing trade. They are trying to earn a living too.

I'm semi-pro and would go out for £50 but only if its good music. If its tosh it's £80 minimum [/quote]

Theres a band where i live undercutting everybody charging £30 a man !
And they arent kids they've been playing a few years!

[OldGit]

Originals Vs Covers - they are different markets and need to be treated differently.

The 300 people packing the party band gig on a Friday and Saturday and bopping to Mustang Sally are not necessarily going to come out on a Tuesday to the same venue to watch a band playing originals they have never heard before, no matter how good they are (because, of course, they will have no idea how good they are unless someone tells them.)
A covers band playing Mustang Sally or a tribute band is a safe option, they know what they will get, even if they have never heard of the band.

For example if you see a poster for Goulburn playing 10 tracks from their latest CD "SOMAN" including "Liu Xia", "Kelt Capital Stakes" and , of course, the seminal "Eberhard Havekost" you have no idea if you are going to like it.
The adventurous may be prepared to drag themselves out on a work night, shell out a fiver to get there, £2 to get in and £10 on beer for the night on the off chance that they may have a good time but most weekend audiences are not out to risk wasting an evening like that unless someone they know and trust raves on about this great band they have found and who you just have to see or you will be really missing out ...

Of course the people (I nearly wrote "kids" because they will largely be younger) who will risk it will probably not want to hang about with the 30/40/50+ aged people bopping to Mustang Sally on the weekend ...

So the covers bands etc are not stealing your audience for original bands. and the pubs and promoters aren't ripping you off, if anything it's other originals bands, and competition from the telly, DVD, PO3, Internet, Footie pubs, MTV etc that is the problem.

[b]SpineyNorman Wrote:
"only people you can really blame are the paying public, who want to go out on Friday and Saturday night and drink (and talk loudly) over a live band that's doing stuff they've heard before, so they don't really need to listen."[/b]

Nope, it isn't the fault of the paying public who are choosing where to spend their money.
If they don't come to see you, it's most certainly[b] YOUR [/b]fault and not theirs: you just are not entertaining enough to draw them away from the alternatives, or you are not marketing your band correctly.


If you think the promoter/pub is paying you less than you are worth, just try putting your own gigs on and filling them with paying, drinking punters; pay for the venue hire, bar staff, security, PA, lights, licences, promotion, bands, etc etc ..