Reinforcing vocals

[spinynorman]

Our new lead singer holds a tune and works the crowd well, but her voice isn't as poweful as the girl we had before. So I'm wondering what we could do to boost the volume and add a bit more depth to the vocals, without introducing feedback. We're in pubs, mostly small, with our own PA handling vocals only, and no sound man.

The mics are SM58s, would changing the mic help?

I've got a Behringer Mic100 preamp, which I haven't tried yet.

The PA is a StudioMaster C3x mixer into a DBX231 EQ, into a Yamaha EMX512 powered mixer with Mackie C300z speakers. We use the EMX only as a power amp, only because it's what we had before adding the separate mixer and EQ. I wonder if a more powerful power amp, without built in eq and mixing, would help.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Edited March 29, 2014 by spinynorman

[0175westwood29]

not really the right place for this thread buddy,

but i would think that your just gonna have to work on eq so that you can get her louder, doubt changing mic will make much of a difference tho.

andy

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1396096572' post='2409900']
The mics are SM58s, would changing the mic help?[/quote]Yes, A sound reinforcement forum can point you in the right direction.

[Lozz196]

Sennheisers seem to have more "oomph" to them, and are comparable in price.

[JTUK]

I think you'll need more headroom in your P.A and I am not sure it will give
you that with that system, You may have to put a LOT of time into EQ'ing the band
so you don't get into any sort of fight with the vox.
Are the vox weak or thin?

[Phil Starr]

Hi, we had the same problem for years, our singer had a great voice but quiet and no mic technique.

Your problem is gain before feedback, your mixer will probably let her be loud enough but you'l get howlround before you run out of gain. Adding a pre amp won't help that.

First of all the SM58 isn't the best for avoiding feedback, it was great in 1962 but we can do better now. It is a cardioid and a super or hyper cardioid has a tighter pick up pattern and will reject feedback better. Audix OM5 would be better as would several by AKG, Electrovoice, Sennheiser,

The other thing to look at is mic technique, pointing the mic straight at the back of her mouth and holding it right up to her lips would raise the level of her voice compared to the racket the rest of the band are making and reduce the gain needed to get her loud enough. Trouble is many singers find this intimidating if they lack confidence.

[ubit]

If she sings well and works the crowd well, Im not sure that you really have a problem. Just cos she's not Janis joplin, doesn't mean she is a poor singist. I say, let her get on with it and enjoy playing with a good singer

[JTUK]

SM58's pick up too much so get a more narrow directional mic...
that will help cut down the band getting into her mic..... and the aim is to
isolate her vocal into the Desk,,and then hopefully most of
what you boost with just be her...

[spinynorman]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1396116450' post='2410134']
I think you'll need more headroom in your P.A and I am not sure it will give
you that with that system, You may have to put a LOT of time into EQ'ing the band
so you don't get into any sort of fight with the vox.
Are the vox weak or thin?
[/quote]

She's got quite a bluesy voice, but there's not a lot of depth to it and it doesn't carry.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1396116795' post='2410140']
Hi, we had the same problem for years, our singer had a great voice but quiet and no mic technique.

Your problem is gain before feedback, your mixer will probably let her be loud enough but you'l get howlround before you run out of gain. Adding a pre amp won't help that.

First of all the SM58 isn't the best for avoiding feedback, it was great in 1962 but we can do better now. It is a cardioid and a super or hyper cardioid has a tighter pick up pattern and will reject feedback better. Audix OM5 would be better as would several by AKG, Electrovoice, Sennheiser,

The other thing to look at is mic technique, pointing the mic straight at the back of her mouth and holding it right up to her lips would raise the level of her voice compared to the racket the rest of the band are making and reduce the gain needed to get her loud enough. Trouble is many singers find this intimidating if they lack confidence.
[/quote]

Singers don't seem to think mic technique is important. I've suggested she keep the mic horizontal and I set it up on the stand like that. Next time I look she's got it pointing up at a 45 degree angle. Whole lines went missing last night and then she looks at the mic like it's broken.

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1396116832' post='2410141']

If she sings well and works the crowd well, Im not sure that you really have a problem. Just cos she's not Janis joplin, doesn't mean she is a poor singist. I say, let her get on with it and enjoy playing with a good singer
[/quote]

I agree with that to a point, but not if the audience can't hear her. We try not to play too loud, but we're a rock band and there are limits.

Thanks for some useful advice and ideas. I did look at the Live Sound forum on Gearslutz and thought I'd probably do better here.

[lurksalot]

[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1396134076' post='2410382']

Singers don't seem to think mic technique is important. I've suggested she keep the mic horizontal and I set it up on the stand like that. Next time I look she's got it pointing up at a 45 degree angle. Whole lines went missing last night and then she looks at the mic like it's broken.
[/quote]

if we cant use the tools of the job , then no amount of trickery will get us back up into the mix, everything is just pandering and compromise , but sometimes that is where the starting point is .

[Dad3353]

[quote name='spinynorman' timestamp='1396096572' post='2409900']...Any suggestions gratefully received.[/quote]

If the good lady is not using any mic technique at all, you might like to consider a headset mic. There are some very good ones out there (although I can't give you a model to go for...). This will free up all mic positioning worries, and she can get on with just singing.
It doesn't suite everyone, as, by design, one can no longer 'work' the mic for vocal effects, burt if she's not doing that anyway, it wouldn't apply.
Some folks are shy of wearing headsets, but you'll see a great many stars these days with them; it may help to 'sell' the idea to a reticent girl. Maybe you could get one on loan or hire to try it out..? It certainly helps greatly with feedback issues and bucal proximity.
Just my tuppence-worth.

[JTUK]

Well, this is beginning to sound like a deal breaker.
I don't like the idea of people learning on the job but
if you think she is worth the effort you are going to have to
tell her it IS a problem..
Tell her and teach her what positioning the mic will/can do and
then point out how it affects the gig... which it sounds like she is
aware of that.

There is a limit with that people can put up with ....mine is drunk musicians..
and I warn them that there will be a problem if it starts to cost me money/bookings.
If I turn up for a gig and a fee..there is no way I'll not be wanting to collect it.. ( that sort of thing )

If your vox problem is in the same territory... you need to address it, asap.

[tonyquipment]

Vodka

[geoffbyrne]

Would a bit of compression allow you to turn her up a bit?

G.

[Phil Starr]

Good luck with the mic technique, our singer bought a top of the range Shure KSM9 to solve the problems. Sounds wonderful but at a gig, after a couple of rums for courage, she was holding the mic at arms length and complaining that she couldn't hear herself through the monitors. When I suggested, probably fairly forcefully that she might like to hold it up to her mouth she informed me that she shouldn't need to with a £500 mic.

It's not uncommon for the non-techie to resent the laws of physics, there's a lovely scene in Zen and The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance where two people fall out over the thought of using a piece of coke tin as a shim rather than buying a specially imported German shim.

The best bet might be to get her to watch videos female singers who really use good mic technique. The 45degree thing is usually copying the pose off some pop video which looks cool but is just someone miming.

Hope she never reads this. I love her dearly but she drove me nuts.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1396177635' post='2410602']
Would a bit of compression allow you to turn her up a bit?

G.
[/quote]

No, compression brings up the feedback and makes things worse. If you think about it guitarists use feedback to improve their sustain.

[51m0n]

Record the gig

Video too if poss

Bad Mic technique means no amount of PA shenanigans can sort it.


If she won't fix her Mic technique then she will never project.........

[51m0n]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1396179098' post='2410627']


No, compression brings up the feedback and makes things worse. If you think about it guitarists use feedback to improve their sustain.
[/quote]


That is true


But a bit of subtle compression may still help

[ubit]

[quote name='tonyquipment' timestamp='1396173871' post='2410556']
Vodka
[/quote]

Definite agreement on that one. Always helps with confidence

[Phil Starr]

This is a good demonstration of off axis response and distance problems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvUfXxalD7Q

[Monckyman]

JT has it.
It IS her problem, she does need to listen, and the cost of the mic is irrelevant.
Explain to her that you playing bass with only your right hand little finger to pluck the strings won't sound any better on a bass twice as expensive, and that what goes in is always more important than what comes out.
Try to get her to stick to a max 3 inches distance from the mic unless screaming.

[brensabre79]

Mic technique, mic technique and mic technique are the three things that will solve this issue!

A hypercardiod mic will help a little.

You [i]can[/i] use a graphic EQ to cut out some of the feedback you get from turning the mic up. [b]But[/b] it will also mean everything the mic is picking up will be louder.

Gate + subtle compression [i]might[/i] help a little bit. [b]But[/b] again it could make things worse!

My trick for getting the best out of a mic with a quiet singer is this (if you have a proper desk):
• turn the channel gain down as low as you can, put the fader up to 0dB (no higher)
• route the channel to every available group (we have 4), put the group faders at 0dB and no higher.
• EQ out the nasty frequencies while turning up the gain slowly to get the level you require.

If you crank the gain, or add a mic pre, you essentially widen the pickup field of the mic - meaning everything gets picked up.

But most of all, tell your singer that her mic should be covered in lipstick by the end of the set. And tell her to SING UP! Its a rock song not a lullaby convention.

[Dad3353]

I'd add that some singers, mostly beginners, don't like to hear themselves in the monitors. The more they're given, the less they'll 'project'. There's a learning curve here, but sometimes it helps, at first at least, to actually [i]reduce [/i]the foldback level, to encourage them to sing up.

[Count Bassy]

Mic technique, singing technique, and some mics definitely feed back sooner than others.

Has she considered/had singer coaching to bring her strength and tone up?
[size=4]I am not a great singer by any means, but am having some lessons from a professional singer and it has transformed my tone (volume was never a problem!). Larynx, soft pallet, tongue and jaw positions all help to get the sound. It's been quite an eye opener for me![/size]

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1396274039' post='2411637']
I'd add that some singers, mostly beginners, don't like to hear themselves in the monitors. The more they're given, the less they'll 'project'. There's a learning curve here, but sometimes it helps, at first at least, to actually [i]reduce [/i]the foldback level, to encourage them to sing up.
[/quote]

the reverse is true of guitarists, turn the foldback right up and sometimes they'll even turn down