Alembics? Talk to me.

[dudi8]

my alembic is for sale, but its defiantly not a low end

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='cocco' timestamp='1396287759' post='2411882']
Are you the same jazzyvee off the alembic forum? If so your purple elan is gorgeous!

I like the elan, Orion, and Europa shapes the most. I wouldn't have the patience to wait for a new one though. What do these generally sell for? I'm not after a museum piece, just a players bass, the more maple the better and the less coffee table looking the better, preferably a solid or trans black finish.
[/quote]
Yeah that is me. I prefer the coffee table looking ones best. I love natural wood.
The purple one is mine and I also have a black one too.
http://alembic.com/club/messages/411/83134.html?1334349244
here is the build record http://alembic.com/club/messages/631/57606.html?1314917105

This is probably the ultimate Elan bass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjP-5sf0kAw
Not mine though.

[molan]

I've owned a string of Alembics and, in very general terms, I don't find the lower level models to be in the same league as the higher end ones

My favourite was probably a Rogue but even that paled compared to an MK Sig and a Series I had.

I think the Lowell models are still nice but, for me, they just don't have that classic Alembic vibe that the nicer ones have. A lot of this is to do with the funky filter based electronics though and you do sometimes find a more basic model has had these fitted as an option.

The other thing to say about Alembics is that they are all very different. Each one seems to have its own personality and you absolutely have to try one before you buy.

Ultimately I fell out of love with them and, for my really high end bass, chose Fodera instead but when you're up in this sort of quality bracket there's so many little individual things that make the difference

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1396300177' post='2412147'] Ultimately I fell out of love with them and, for my really high end bass, chose a Fodera, a couple of Ritters, a Alleva Coppelo, a Sei, and a Lull instead (what can I say, I like to play!) but when you're up in this sort of quality bracket there's so many little individual things that make the difference [/quote] corrected

[molan]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1396369085' post='2412781']
corrected
[/quote]

2 x Lulls now

[Paulhauser]

I had a Orion 5 string and I have sold it within weeks of receiving. Ergonomics and the sound was not there for me. Still have the respect for the brand.

[JazzBassfreak]

Here's a plug for *ahem my Epic is still for sale O.o

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1396274937' post='2411654']
The price of Alembic basses is a result of the sheer amount of hours it takes to make each instrument. All their basic costings are done on the number of hours it typically takes to make each bass. Add to that the fact that this labour-intensive work is done by highly skilled craftsmen and women using the finest quality woods , proprietary hardware and electronics , and then you start to see why they cost so much.

And as for Sei basses versus Fodera or Alembic, I've never played a Sei but I'm sure they are excellent instruments , but where those two revered American bass builders score over them in terms of desirability is the overall appeal of their designs and the characteristic sounds of their basses. Build quality is not the only consideration. Particulaly with Alembics, no other bass will adequately substitute , they sound unique. Fodera less so ( I'm not a huge fan myself, just not my thing ) , but they inspire devotion in some players. There are all kinds of excellent bass builders out there, but most of them fail to capture people's imagination in the same way that Alembic and Fodera have done.
[/quote]sorry i just don't buy it. some alembics are nearly three times the price of a Shuker, or a Sei. and Alembic don't put three times as much effort in to there making there basses than these makers. . they ride on there image, and can get away with the huge prices of there basses on that fact. its nothing to do with capturing peoples imagination. its about very cleverly forming an image, with top players, endorsees etc. and riding the wave and overcharging because the can. just like Fodera, fantastic instruments no doubt, but overpriced. yep. i think its very naive to think otherwise.

i personally would feel like a bit of a wally, walking on stage with a Fodera or an Alembic.

Edited April 4, 2014 by bubinga5

[White Cloud]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1396619842' post='2415756']
sorry i just don't buy it. some alembics are nearly three times the price of a Shuker, or a Sei. and Alembic don't put three times as much effort in to there making there basses than these makers. . they ride on there image, and can get away with the huge prices of there basses on that fact. its nothing to do with capturing peoples imagination. its about very cleverly forming an image, with top players, endorsees etc. and riding the wave and overcharging because the can. just like Fodera, fantastic instruments no doubt, but overpriced. yep. i think its very naive to think otherwise.

i personally would feel like a bit of a wally, walking on stage with a Fodera or an Alembic.
[/quote]
From personal experience I would say that there are an absolute myriad of builders out there that are easily on a par with Alembic regarding wood working, design and construction. The filter based electronics are sublime and are what set Alembic apart once upon a time...but, again, they are no longer peerless in this department in the same way that they once were.

I agree. They are, when bought new, extremely over priced. There are some good deals to be had S/H though.

Edited April 4, 2014 by White Cloud

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1396619842' post='2415756']
sorry i just don't buy it. some alembics are nearly three times the price of a Shuker, or a Sei. and Alembic don't put three times as much effort in to there making there basses than these makers. . they ride on there image, and can get away with the huge prices of there basses on that fact. its nothing to do with capturing peoples imagination. its about very cleverly forming an image, with top players, endorsees etc. and riding the wave and overcharging because the can. just like Fodera, fantastic instruments no doubt, but overpriced. yep. i think its very naive to think otherwise.

i personally would feel like a bit of a wally, walking on stage with a Fodera or an Alembic.
[/quote]

It depends which level of Alembics you mean. The Series 1 and 2 basses are stupidly high for for what is just electronics differences. I think at the signature level, they're about right, though I've had mine for 12 years.

You're not going to see much change out of 4 grand for either a Wal, Sei or Shuker once you've added almost every bell and whistle or fancy wood top and fingerboard you can think of. It's all relative really and how much you think something's worth. You don't think they're worth it, fair enough, don't buy one. Having played a Shuker and a Sei, I prefer my Alembic. I played a Ritter and thought it was so-so. The Fodera I tried was great, but sadly passive so I wasn't interested. I don't think that in all seriousness even if money were no object anyone should be paying more than 5 grand for a bass.

I personally think that Rickenbackers are hugely overpriced. They're a £400 bass. £1700?!! Jog on, pal. As I said, all relative really. Plenty would swear by them.

I regularly go onstage with my Alembic. I don't feel like a wally (regardless if I am one or not!!) I don't go on feeling like that anyway, but then again, I don't own a bass I don't like for that reason.

[bubinga5]

yes but there is no Shuker or Sei even at there top end, that you will have to pay 15 + grand for.. by the way i didn't mean to offend anyone who goes on stage with these instruments. i apologise if i did.

Edited April 4, 2014 by bubinga5

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1396645871' post='2416134']
yes but there is no Shuker or Sei even at there top end, that you will have to pay 15 + grand for.. by the way i didn't mean to offend anyone who goes on stage with these instruments. i apologise if i did.
[/quote]

Yeah, that is true and I didn't make that point clearly enough in my post. Unless it's a vintage instrument owned by someone famous or somewhat rare nothing "normal" should really be up at that sort of level.

On the other hand, I'm sure people could argue that the Series 2 basses would wipe the floor with anything. Having played a couple, they are amazing basses and probably the most flexible sounding basses I've ever tried.To compare Shuker or Sei basses is an apples and oranges one at that level as they're not similar in functionality or sounds really at all. I'd have to win the lottery to get one though.... 15 grand is somewhat steep though to put it mildly. Ouch.

No offence taken and I hope my post didn't suggest there was.

[marcus bell]

I agree totally with what's been said in the last few posts

I mean yeah alembics are absolutely amazing instruments and many have them and love them and that's cool, but I really do think that anything over 5 grand starts to get silly, it goes beyond what an instrument should be valued at unless it's been used by a famous person

[Kiwi]

I've owned two alembics and played countless others including a Series II 6 string standard point. There's definitely a difference between Series basses and the rest - mainly that they're a little brighter. The necks are superb but, as others have suggested, the non series basses can be heavy. The series basses have chambered bodies to reduce the weight a little. I've found Spoilers, Elans and Persuaders to be pretty warm sounding. The one Rogue I tried was a Series II so doesn't really count. I'm not a big fan of the filters to be honest, most of the time I keep them fully open and use a separate eq to shape.

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1396619842' post='2415756']
sorry i just don't buy it. some alembics are nearly three times the price of a Shuker, or a Sei. and Alembic don't put three times as much effort in to there making there basses than these makers. . they ride on there image, and can get away with the huge prices of there basses on that fact. its nothing to do with capturing peoples imagination. its about very cleverly forming an image, with top players, endorsees etc. and riding the wave and overcharging because the can. just like Fodera, fantastic instruments no doubt, but overpriced. yep. i think its very naive to think otherwise.
[/quote]
I suggest your view may carry some niavety too but there's nothing wrong with that. Just be aware that at the moment Fodera only make [b]a 10% margin[/b] on their instruments and that fact comes straight from Fodera themselves. Employing people in New York City and things like fully comp healthcare or pensions are extremely expensive. Plus Fodera chuck out a huge amount of wood purchased straight from suppliers but ultimately doesn't make it through the air drying process. I wouldn't be surprised if Alembic look after and invest in their people like Fodera do. This makes business sense - if talented employees feel protected and stay it also means companies don't have to spend 6 months to a year training their replacements to meet the same standards of perfection in craftsmanship. These instruments are subject to constant scrutiny because of their cost.

Secondly, the amount of time it takes to put Alembic components together almost certainly adds to the cost. The bridge saddle and anchor for example are 250 quid each if bought separately and are hand made. That means some bloke standing at a lathe or vise and making the components out of brass blanks and steel tubing for a specific instrument. You can certainly suggest that the instruments could be made more efficiently but when you get an instrument, you know that every bit of it is hand crafted rather than just the wooden bits. Clearly, history shows there's a reliable market for these instruments.

Martin and Jon's wood work is the equal of anything by Alembic and Fodera, in my opinion. Martin's necks are sublime. Jon's designs are beautiful. Neither employ a load of people, in fact Jon doesn't employ any - he says his time is spent more productively on building rather than training. Low overheads help to keep costs down.

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1396619842' post='2415756']
i personally would feel like a bit of a wally, walking on stage with a Fodera or an Alembic.[/quote]
I suggest it might depends on the music you're playing. Pub rock and Mustang Sally? I would too. But anything with soul, RnB etc. and there's no reason to be concerned. Of course, you could always not worry about the opinions of people you don't know...

[JazzBassfreak]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1396687148' post='2416370']

I suggest it might depends on the music you're playing. Pub rock and Mustang Sally? I would too. But anything with soul, RnB etc. and there's no reason to be concerned. Of course, you could always not worry about the opinions of people you don't know...
[/quote]

I go on stage a few nights a week with my Fodera YYS and my Alembic epic and play Alt rock/thrash. I've never felt like an idiot!

[Dingus]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1396619842' post='2415756']
sorry i just don't buy it. some alembics are nearly three times the price of a Shuker, or a Sei. and Alembic don't put three times as much effort in to there making there basses than these makers. . they ride on there image, and can get away with the huge prices of there basses on that fact. its nothing to do with capturing peoples imagination. its about very cleverly forming an image, with top players, endorsees etc. and riding the wave and overcharging because the can. just like Fodera, fantastic instruments no doubt, but overpriced. yep. i think its very naive to think otherwise.

i personally would feel like a bit of a wally, walking on stage with a Fodera or an Alembic.
[/quote]


Of course, no one will force you to buy an Alembic if you don't like them , don't really want one, don't think they are good value for money, or last but not least, simply can't afford one, but none of those points of view or personal circumstances necessarily mean that Alembics are overpriced.

To be frank, your suggestion that Alembic have conspired with their endorsers to foster a false impression of their instruments in order to get away with charging inflated prices is ridiculous. Like most conspiracy theories, it completely overestimates the degree of connivance and organisational abilities of the supposed conspirators. Rather, the reason Alembic have such a cache as a brand is because they are the originators of money -is-no-object custom built, hi-tech electric guitars and basses, and so many of the standard design features we take for granted on such instruments were first conceived of and designed by Alembic . Put simply, Alembic have a formidable reputation because they[i] are[/i] formidable !


At the risk of repeating myself, Alembics pricing structure is very much directly dictated by the amount of skilled man hours it takes to produce each design, including their complex and unique electronics which they largely manufacture themselves from scratch. If you want an Alembic, they cost what they cost. I can guarantee you that Alembic do not make excessive or unreasonable profit on the basses they make, and their prices merely reflect the amount of work they put into making them. If you don't think they are worth what they cost then don't buy one, but, for various reasons, Alembic are not in direct competition with any of the other bass builders you mention and do not take other companies prices into account when costing their own designs. Why would they ?

Comparing Alembic to other other custom bass builders such as Sei or Shuker is a complete red herring , an irrelevance , not least of all because both of those builders produce basses that use bought -in packages of electronics and hardware. Also , significantly, neither of those builders make basses with the kind of iconic design and unique personality that Alembics have in spades. Sei, Shuker and whole host of other manufacturers will make make you a fancy bass, but none of them will substitute for a proper Alembic.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Dingus

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1396702776' post='2416579']
Comparing Alembic to other other custom bass builders such as Sei or Shuker is a complete red herring , an irrelevance , not least of all because both of those builders produce basses that use bought -in packages of electronics and hardware. Also , significantly, neither of those builders make basses with the kind of iconic design and unique personality that Alembics have in spades. Sei, Shuker and whole host of other manufacturers will make make you a fancy bass, but none of them will substitute for a proper Alembic.
[/quote]

This. Personality and character. Every Alembic I've played or heard, regardless of model or electronics, sounds like an Alembic. This to me is what sets them apart from most other 'over priced' custom builders I can think of (with the possible exception of Wal). If that particular character isn't your thing, they probably will seem ludicrously extravagant. Like Foderas - I really don't get them at all!

[jazzyvee]

The other thing about alembic is that they look after their instruments and honour their warrantee.
I bought a 9 yr old used series Ii bass in 2013 from a USA seller. I had them deliver it to the alembic factory so I could collect it and attend their annual meet as well as get a factory tour.
Mica contacted me on receipt of the bass and said that they realised the bass was made at the time they had problems with the company who did the plating on the brass hardware. So she wanted to ask me if I minded if they made me a complete new set of hardware and have it plated by their current supplier. Of course not. So that was bridge, sustain block, tail-stop and adjustable nut.
How many companies would honour that after 1 year never mind 9.

The other point about alembic is they are a complete custom builder. Even though they have a model range these can be just a starting point and within practical limits you can get them to make whatever you want. That does come at a cost. You can pay serious money for aesthetics like intricate inlays and things that do not make the bass sound or play any better or specify unique body styling custom string spacing, neck profiling or custom electronics because it's all done in house and it's all craftsmen labour so you can make it as expensive as you want.

If I knew enough about the finer points of basses and there were shortcomings I could find in my own alembics to the point that I could specify a bass that would sound and feel better to play I would consider a custom build. But as things stand I don't feel anything is lacking and I don't feel confident that I could specify anything that would be better than what I have.

Jazzyvee

Edited April 5, 2014 by jazzyvee

[EMG456]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1396702776' post='2416579']

At the risk of repeating myself, Alembics pricing structure is very much directly dictated by the amount of skilled man hours it takes to produce each design, including their complex and unique electronics which they largely manufacture themselves from scratch. [/quote]

This is called "hitting the nail on the head".

There is no huge profiteering going on at Alembic or Fodera or Wal or indeed Shuker, Sei etc. Indeed, that accusation could much more credibly be made against Fender, Gibson or Ernie Ball with their economies of scale and automation of the whole industrial process.

If you have ever been involved in any research as to the actual costs of employing a person you will know that the answer comes to a factor of multiples of what that person is actually paid for their work. Taxes, overhead costs, employment legislation all quickly add up. It is genuinely scary, especially for small companies the like of which we are talking.

Add in the costs of the raw materials and customer service and I come to the conclusion that an Alembic or Wal or (although I have no direct knowledge of them) a Fodera is actually very good value for money and I can see where all that money goes.

I think these days our attitudes and expectations have been skewed by the licensing of designs and mass production in various low labour cost economies around the world. The fact that the machine led process can be consistently and reliably performed almost anywhere using broadly unskilled labour forces, means that we can buy what in the 60s and 70s would have been a high quality instrument, for basically peanuts. This in turn leads us to often undervalue instruments made according to a different economic model.

There will always be a law of diminishing returns as we move up the food chain on any given product, be it cars, toasters or guitars. Does an American Fender justify a price 4 times that of an Indonesian or Chinese one? No, is the simple answer. But still we buy the American ones.

I for one am glad that there are companies like Alembic constantly pushing up standards and creating innovations. Whatever instrument we choose to play, our bass lives would be a little bit poorer without them.

Cheers

Ed

[bubinga5]

its a never ending discussion i think.. and some really good points made.. i shall now bow to Digus's expertise in everything bass.

Edited April 6, 2014 by bubinga5

[margusalviste]

I have an Orion 5 from 1996 and it's an awesome sounding instrument. The set-in neck gives more low mids than the neck-through models and this makes Orion even better than some of the higher dollar Alembics. Orion sounds huge. The soundmen often ask what effect do I use on the stage to get that big sound. They are always surprised when they hear that there is no effect in my sound circuit. The only drawback might be the square profile of the back of the neck. Orion 5 has two truss rods so the neck feels a bit bulky. But that sound!

[Fionn]

Just a wee curve-ball here ...

It was said that the Aria Pro II SB basses were "A poor mans Alembic", being Japans "affordable" answer to the outrageously expensive Alembic basses of that era. Matsumoku incorporated much of what Alembic were doing, did it very well, and created their own classic in the process. If you've never tried an SB, I'd highly recommend it ... It may divert the course of your GAS and save you lots of money.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Fionn

[jazzyvee]

I know alembic owners on their forum speak highly of these basses and if you get some alembic activators for those Aria basses you will get a much closer alembic sound.
http://alembic.stores.yahoo.net/axybtacpic.html

They also come up fairly regularly on ebay.
Jazzyvee

[jacko]

On the subject of endorsements, Alembic state that they have never done endorsement deals and that every Alembic player has bought their own instrument. In fact, i think the only one they've given away was the dragon's breath they gave stanley in recognition of his having played their instruments for 30 years...
[url="http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_dragonsbreath.html"]http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_dragonsbreath.html[/url]

Also, most of their 'employees' are family members and they go out of their way to make their customers feel like one of the family too, especially when visting their modest workshops. I somehow can't see the director general of CBS offering me a cup of coffee if I was to turn up on his doorstep.

As for looking like a wally if you turn up to a gig with one, since 1995 I've only ever taken alembics to gigs and haven't been ridiculed .. yet

[rednose200]

I have owned and played many basses in my time, but I always seem to keep going back to my Rogue. It has that unique Alembic tone that no other bass can provide. Both live and in the studio it never fails to cut through the mix. Yes they are expensive, but in my opinion they are worth the outlay. There is not one dead note on the neck. Every note sounds perfect. Your technique has to be pretty decent though. It will punish sloppy playing. You must be precise with your fingering. It is sometimes quite noticeable when I let the odd friend try it. Usually Fender players actually. Ah well. Personally I will never part with mine, unless a higher end model comes my way. That said I'm not keen on Series models. Maybe the MK, but that's about it to be honest. Set up is also extremely important and they are prone to neck variations due to temperature and humidity. I do my own set ups and it does take far longer than other basses. The dual truss rods take a bit of getting used to when setting up, but if you take your time and have patience, you can achieve a perfect action as per your own taste. Anyway there's my two penneth. All best.