winterfire666 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 no, doesnt interest me at all, i play what sounds good and often get complimented on my unusual writing style, if i knew what i was doing im pretty sure that wouldnt happen anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 It depends on what musical situations you put your self in... If you have a bunch of jazzers busking standards..the leader will have pads or dots and you will not survive ( even if you get invited on the gig ) if you are faffing around in the dark. So, first off, learn to follow a basic chart and follow chords. When you get to a solo... and they will give you one or two... it helps to know what notes you need to be able to use over the changes as all the band will stick to the chart.... or at least count the bars of the rounds so you all come back into together from the top... ( ha, ha ..more terminology ) If you don't get to do this sort of thing, or don't want to.... or only play with 3 pieces, then you have less chances to clash notes... So, yes, happy and sad will get you far enough... but it wouldn't get you far if you want to play in more diverse situations.... Depends on the playing circle as well.... you just need to understanding the ways of communicating of the bands you get to play with. The more you know, you can use it or not...but you don't have that choice if you don't have it. so you'll never loose a gig just because you have knowledge, but there are a fair few that you will be excluded from even thinking about....IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1396604224' post='2415532'] It depends on what musical situations you put your self in... If you have a bunch of jazzers busking standards..the leader will have pads or dots and you will not survive ( even if you get invited on the gig ) if you are faffing around in the dark. So, first off, learn to follow a basic chart and follow chords. When you get to a solo... and they will give you one or two... it helps to know what notes you need to be able to use over the changes as all the band will stick to the chart.... or at least count the bars of the rounds so you all come back into together from the top... ( ha, ha ..more terminology ) If you don't get to do this sort of thing, or don't want to.... or only play with 3 pieces, then you have less chances to clash notes... So, yes, happy and sad will get you far enough... but it wouldn't get you far if you want to play in more diverse situations.... Depends on the playing circle as well.... you just need to understanding the ways of communicating of the bands you get to play with. The more you know, you can use it or not...but you don't have that choice if you don't have it. so you'll never loose a gig just because you have knowledge, but there are a fair few that you will be excluded from even thinking about....IMO. [/quote] This.. I have no interest in playing Jazz, or on a boat*, and I'm in bands with people who communicate in ways other than in-depth theory, so I don't feel limited. [size=2]*Actually, I'v played on a boat quite a few times, but it was the Shields ferry on the Tyne.[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I used to know lots and used to make a point of learning them. But the more theory and musical ideas I consumed made me realise scales were bollocks and tend to lock you into certain things and phrases. I think a wider understanding of harmony, notes relating to current chord that you are on and where you are going with a hint of relation to the key or tonal centre, whilst knowing all the notes on the neck and intervals etc is what is important. Also your ear....f*** the rules. When i used to hear Eddie Van Halen say the chromatic scale is the most important i used to think what a cop out, what's he talking about....he's right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Best thing for me was lucking out meeting a very very good piano who liked a drink so I got the 'in' as I would drive him. His knowledge was very good, but he never was too much of a strict reader. I found that out pretty quick, but he got all the gigs and I just went with it. He could make sense of any chart even if he never actually played it...and then you needed a combination of good ears and the ability to hear his changes that weren't written. Once you have them, then they crop up more often that you'd think and a quick nod would take you down that route. His sense and knowledge of harmony would keep the tune in check even if a horn was soloing. That education was invaluable when you got exposed to substitutions that he'd throw in... By the same token, we had a gtr who was known to read 'fly-**** and played all sort shows and pit gigs but he wasn't the guy you'd call for the type of gtr gigs we'd know. I'll say no more.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1396604579' post='2415548'] I used to know lots and used to make a point of learning them. But the more theory and musical ideas I consumed made me realise scales were bollocks and tend to lock you into certain things and phrases. I think a wider understanding of harmony, notes relating to current chord that you are on and where you are going with a hint of relation to the key or tonal centre, whilst knowing all the notes on the neck and intervals etc is what is important. Also your ear....f*** the rules. [/quote] Saying that scales are b*****ks and locks you into certain things is like saying that the alphabet is b****cks and does the same. Scales are the building blocks of music. It's how you use them that's important. As for "rules", theory does not consist of rules, just guidelines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1396606277' post='2415578'] Best thing for me was lucking out meeting a very very good piano who liked a drink so I got the 'in' as I would drive him. His knowledge was very good, but he never was too much of a strict reader. I found that out pretty quick, but he got all the gigs and I just went with it. He could make sense of any chart even if he never actually played it...and then you needed a combination of good ears and the ability to hear his changes that weren't written. Once you have them, then they crop up more often that you'd think and a quick nod would take you down that route. His sense and knowledge of harmony would keep the tune in check even if a horn was soloing. That education was invaluable when you got exposed to substitutions that he'd throw in... By the same token, we had a gtr who was known to read 'fly-**** and played all sort shows and pit gigs but he wasn't the guy you'd call for the type of gtr gigs we'd know. I'll say no more.................. [/quote] Good point. The more "tools" you have at your disposal the better. It always amazes me that the people who dismiss theory are the ones who dont know any. ALL aspects of knowing and playing music are both helpful and add to the enjoyment and understanding of it. Purposely dismissing any aspect does not make sense to me. Granted, some may have no need or interest in learning certain things, but that does not render them useless in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I struggle to see how any of it would make any sense without knowing how it all fits together. TO be blunt, a lack of knowledge of scales usually means that a massive amount of music is unavailable to you and that just seems a shame. I find that, as an improvising musician, the more I learn, the more I hear and the more I recognise, the more I can respond to intelligently. Charts make more sense, improvising becomes more creative and I also enjoy listening to music more. Bludnering around with pentatonics got very tedious for me very quickly although there are those who can still make some beautiful music with those alone. But the edge that I look for in players is rarely found in the 'intuiitive' player and more often in the 'informed'. The irony is, the basics are not that hard to learn (the interestingly titled Neopolitan, Balearic, Constipated etc scales are VERY uncommon and are more often than not basic scales with notes added or left out so, if you knwo the basics, the rest is easily picked up in real time). Major, Minor, Dominant, Diminished, Augmented and Blues scales is about all you need. It's a week's work at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1396606379' post='2415579'] Saying that scales are b*****ks and locks you into certain things is like saying that the alphabet is b****cks and does the same. Scales are the building blocks of music. It's how you use them that's important. As for "rules", theory does not consist of rules, just guidelines. [/quote]no it wouldn't. It would be like saying notes are bollocks if using your alphabet analogy. It does consist of rules....and guidelines. Baroque harmony is theory. No consecutive fifths or octave between notes etc. Serialism has specific theory rules. Scales have rules, intervals that decide them etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1396615537' post='2415712'] I struggle to see how any of it would make any sense without knowing how it all fits together. TO be blunt, a lack of knowledge of scales usually means that a massive amount of music is unavailable to you and that just seems a shame. I find that, as an improvising musician, the more I learn, the more I hear and the more I recognise, the more I can respond to intelligently. Charts make more sense, improvising becomes more creative and I also enjoy listening to music more. Bludnering around with pentatonics got very tedious for me very quickly although there are those who can still make some beautiful music with those alone. But the edge that I look for in players is rarely found in the 'intuiitive' player and more often in the 'informed'. The irony is, the basics are not that hard to learn (the interestingly titled Neopolitan, Balearic, Constipated etc scales are VERY uncommon and are more often than not basic scales with notes added or left out so, if you knwo the basics, the rest is easily picked up in real time). Major, Minor, Dominant, Diminished, Augmented and Blues scales is about all you need. It's a week's work at most. [/quote] that's what i was saying. The bigger harmonic picture. I'm not ignorant to theory. Quite the opposite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I never even knew there was more than the one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyquipment Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Pentatonic and that's it Don't know any others that I'm aware of... They could be scales but I don't know what they are called... They are just patterns that seem to sound right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weststarx Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Ive learnt the shape of a major scale but nothing else. They're something I want to learn, but I just dont have the patience for. I just wanna rock and play songs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1396620850' post='2415764'] no it wouldn't. It would be like saying notes are bollocks if using your alphabet analogy. It does consist of rules....and guidelines. Baroque harmony is theory. No consecutive fifths or octave between notes etc. Serialism has specific theory rules. Scales have rules, intervals that decide them etc [/quote] I am not sure I understand what you are getting at here. Lets take the alphabet/scales analogy a little further. The letters of the alphabet are the building blocks of the English language, as scales are to music. When we are at school we learn our spellings and how to pronounce words etc. When we have learned all this, we can then arrange all these letters into words to be creative and to communicate with others. There are no "rules" as to what word should follow what. That's entirely up to us. However, in order for things to make some sense, the actual letters must take on a certain pattern in order to compose words. So it is not correct to say the the alphabet (scales) itself is limiting. The only thing that limits us is our lack of knowledge and creative ability. Once you know how to use the alphabet, the sky is the limit. Edited April 4, 2014 by Coilte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Love scales great for warm ups ect,like to do the major then run 3rd,4th 6ths around them,keeps the mind and fingers intune,but thats just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyDog Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1396561699' post='2415248'] I've been playing for 35+ years & I still haven't got a clue about scales. [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1396600729' post='2415478'] Good post ! What exactly do people mean when they say they [i]know[/i] their scales ? For most, it means being able to play from root to root all over the neck at a million MPH. While this is not a bad thing it is not the full story. Really knowing scales means being aware of how chord tones are made from them and why some chords are minor, some major, and some diminished. It also involves knowing how to harmonise the scale. NOW !.....how many people know their scales ? [/quote] ME! I've actually been working a hell of a lot on theory as a wider thing, however scales are the absolute foundation of Western Musical theory. They are simple but I still get a bit bogged down thinking about what will be THE best note to play next. I know chord tones, modes, diatonic theory, rhythmic theory and my scales but sometimes I just think too much. Being appreciative of the music around you and listening and reacting without thinking is what sets most of us apart from Pino et al. I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubit Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I just had a look at the major pentatonic on facetube and it's easy , so maybe I will look into them a wee bit more, can't hurt though I've managed without for long enough. It's always good to learn new things as it brings more to your music, here goes....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I know all the modes of the major scale and the blues, some of the bebop scales and some others.. No where near all of them I think they're seriously improved me as a player. I understand what chord tones make up a chord from a scale. They've helped me to unlock parts of the fretboard I wasn't using before. So much so that I know love learning new ones! I've recently started to get into improvisation and they have been a god send If you don't want to learn them don't. Just don't say it will ruin your creativity etc. Because (In my experience) this is completely untrue. You never know it might bring out new ideas that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I learnt scales and intervals instinctively, luckily I have a good ear but I had no interest in learning theory straight away until I started to take music more seriously. People talk about scales like you'll need them all the time. They're useful in so many ways, mainly in developing a strong ear and an understanding for music, but a peripheral awareness for scales usually gets people by in the majority of musical settings. Improvisation is the same, I don't like (I hate, in fact) to solo on bass but practicing improvisation helps develop a stronger musical vocabulary. It's about having the facility to play without saying too much in one go, which is where true musicianship comes into play IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 [quote name='tonyquipment' timestamp='1396621786' post='2415773'] They are just patterns that seem to sound right. [/quote] Which is essentially what scales are. You probably know more than you think but just don't know what the names are yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1396625691' post='2415826'] I am not sure I understand what you are getting at here. Lets take the alphabet/scales analogy a little further. The letters of the alphabet are the building blocks of the English language, as scales are to music. When we are at school we learn our spellings and how to pronounce words etc. When we have learned all this, we can then arrange all these letters into words to be creative and to communicate with others. There are no "rules" as to what word should follow what. That's entirely up to us. However, in order for things to make some sense, the actual letters must take on a certain pattern in order to compose words. So it is not correct to say the the alphabet (scales) itself is limiting. The only thing that limits us is our lack of knowledge and creative ability. Once you know how to use the alphabet, the sky is the limit. [/quote] I was saying notes are like letters. The smallest denomination. Scales are like phrases or sentences or grammar. Which doesn't have to be perfect as long as you are getting your message across. everyone has there own lingo ya know. The rules bit i was saying had nowt to do with the analogy just about music fact. We are starting to sound like this now http://youtu.be/QplCetQYYKw Look pal. I have nothing against theory. I'm big on it, a nerd almost. It's just my approach and feeling of it. i don't see it as a dead academic thing. Edited April 4, 2014 by Lord Sausage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thodrik Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I did a lot when I was younger and doing classical double bass and theory etc. I found them helpful in terms of knowing scales and improving my fingering, intonation and technique. I don't tend to practice them as much these days, but I haven't forgotten them. I wouldn't say that knowledge of music theory is all important,but it can certainly prove helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coilte Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1396638156' post='2416010'] Look pal. I have nothing against theory. [/quote] Wow... !! Lighten up a little !! No need to go on the defensive. It's all the same to me whether you are for or against theory. I was merely trying to make a point by way of an analogy. Take it or leave it....doesn't matter. Edited April 4, 2014 by Coilte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I hate theory. Know my scales, modes and arpeggios inside out. It's like eating vegetable. Makes me a healthier musician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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