Does everyone erm ....know their scales?

[Danj]

I think people are using 'scales' in a broad sense here - to include the relationship between notes and everything that comes with that.

I have been playing a long time, and learnt my scales and modes quite early on... but I am still now working to understand both how you use and substitute chords harmonically within a key, and how a piece of music can move within keys... and then how you can apply modes over the top to give you structured and 'thought out' ideas over the top.

I had a great chat with a jazzer friend of mine about the great jazz solos, and he explained there were some players who just closed their eyes and blew vs. some others who planned and structured their solos in advance... 2 very different approaches with merits / issues. I have always subscribed to the view that 'd rather understand WHY something I did worked/didn't work than just trust to feel... and whilst I have learnt a chunk of theory, I am still fundamentally a feel player.

The other thing I think is a huge advantage of learning your scales & theory is how you can apply the logic of theory within a song... so even if you know nothing about the song, you can usually deduce the key from a bit of ear training (and spot the 7th) and then you have the building blocks of the song... and can follow/provide effective counterpoint to the melody even if you've never heard it before.

Sure you can just do this by ear, but thats a lot harder and riskier imo - and when you play a dep gig with an 'adventuring' guitarist who likes the crowd to decide what you are going to play, a more reliable approach makes sense.

[Dr.Dave]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396719848' post='2416777']
I would expect that you probably have a lot of musical knowledge and theory, but probably developed through trial/error and flexibly reusing patterns from songs that you know. Maybe you don't know the names for the concepts you've (re-)discovered, but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a whole lot of reusable bass music knowledge in your head.
[/quote]
I guess that's what I meant really , Mr Twit. I sort of have the knowledge but no ability to define it. I remember the original pub space invaders game. If you wanted the top bonus of 300 points you fired 22 shots then waited for the bonus alien to appear before firing again. After that first bonus you changed it to 15 shots to get the top bonus. Patterns. I sort of play like that ! I know the notes on each fret up to the fifth on the E and A strings and a couple on the D string - just so when someone hollers a key out to me I know where to start. After that my hands take care of it while I get on with remembering the lyrics I have to sing. When folk ask me to teach them I refuse by saying that if you wanted to learn how to play Snooker you'd ask Steve Davis , not Jimmy White. That's me - the Jimmy White of bass playing !

[gub]

Well it's great to hear so many different points of view, I think from a personal level, I just want to try and make sense of it all, I don't usually have a problem jamming along with other musicians,etc but do feel a bit of a Faker sometimes, I think it's also to do with self worth.

[Tom Brookes Music]

I know a fair few scales......classically trained guitarist originally, then moved on to blues jazzy electric stuff so I've learned a lot over the years. My personally experience seems to be very similar to that of CamdenRob.....starting out, I wasn't hugely naturally gifted-struggled to play anything by ear etc so knowing the theory of how music worked and what notes worked over which harmony etc was my way of being able to function when playing with others. As the years have gone on, my musical ear has improved somewhat and especially on bass, I play pretty much by ear. Still though, when my band is jamming a new song and I'm struggling to get the bassline to work, knowing a few different arpeggios and scales that will work over the chords means that I'll usually come up with something that I can work with.

I know people that have graduated from conservatoires that would struggle to work out three blind mice by ear, and would freeze if asked to improvise a five second fill. I also know people that are professional players that can't read a single note of music and their theory extends as far as knowing the difference between major and minor, but rock up at a gig, join in without knowing the key of the song and play all night by ear. In my opinion both approaches are equally valid.....the best musicians that I know combine both skillsets.

[BigRedX]

Long ago, when I first started playing the guitar in my teens learnt where the notes were in the major, minor and pentatonic scales were and that was it. I never practiced playing scales because I never played them in my songs so I couldn't see any point. Pretty soon after that I stopped playing the notes that were supposed to be right according to the key of the piece and started playing the notes I could hear in my head when I listened to what the other instruments were doing. I took a little longer, but the parts I was playing were far more interesting.

These days conventional scales seem to have little part in the music I'm playing. The baseline to the verse of "SpiderQueen" contains every semitone from E to Bb and adding in the chorus and playing something a bit more complex using the notes of the guitar chords would allow me to play every note in the octave except Eb and I'm sure I could shoehorn it in somewhere in make it sound musical if I really wanted. And this is just a simple punk rock song...

Edited April 6, 2014 by BigRedX

[JTUK]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396720371' post='2416784']
[b]When a player only wants to play in a covers band which means learning someone else's lines parrot fashion[/b], why spend hours learning endless modes and diminished scales when he/she will never use them. If that player then chooses to move into a genre such as jazz then those skills will be useful but not before. So why waist time.
[/quote]

I'd say that is the min default position. Ideally, any band worth watching will go way beyond
learning the song parrot fashion... and if they don't or can't, then you have a pretty boring band
as it is most likely that the band will not be anywhere as good as the recording band, so what are you left with..??
Not something of much interest, IMV..

[peteb]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396720371' post='2416784']


When a player only wants to play in a covers band which means learning someone else's lines parrot fashion, why spend hours learning endless modes and diminished scales when he/she will never use them. If that player then chooses to move into a genre such as jazz then those skills will be useful but not before. So why waist time.
[/quote]
Surely the whole point is that having a basic understanding of scales will make it quicker and easier to accurately learn the basslines of the cover songs that you want to play??

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396720371' post='2416784']


When a player only wants to play in a covers band which means learning someone else's lines parrot fashion, why spend hours learning endless modes and diminished scales when he/she will never use them. If that player then chooses to move into a genre such as jazz then those skills will be useful but not before. So why waist time.
[/quote]

I don't agree that, just because you are in a rock covers band, that you need to learn the bass lines 'parrot fashion'.
Knowing your scales (and more importantly IMO, the chord tones that they contain) helps enormously when learning bass lines. You hear one part, and either just by listening, or with a bit of fumbling, realise that it is in a certain key, and then you can use that knowledge to learn the part really quickly, as you already know that there is a pre-defined set of notes that the original line (usually) uses.
In addition to this, if the band have an extended solo, or decide to wig out a bit, you'll be able to go with the flow, and express yourself a bit, as you know that there are more notes and possibilities than just the original bass part (to be done sparingly, of course)

[Horizontalste]

I don't practice scales nor do I know where the modes are. What I do know is what the main ones sound like (major, minor, pentatonic,etc) so it's not overly difficult to find them in whatever position I find myself in.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1396784471' post='2417233']
Long ago, when I first started playing the guitar in my teens learnt where the notes were in the major, minor and pentatonic scales were and that was it. I never practiced playing scales because I never played them in my songs so I couldn't see any point. Pretty soon after that I stopped playing the notes that were supposed to be right according to the key of the piece and started playing the notes I could hear in my head when I listened to what the other instruments were doing. I took a little longer, but the parts I was playing were far more interesting.

These days conventional scales seem to have little part in the music I'm playing. The baseline to the verse of "SpiderQueen" contains every semitone from E to Bb and adding in the chorus and playing something a bit more complex using the notes of the guitar chords would allow me to play every note in the octave except Eb and I'm sure I could shoehorn it in somewhere in make it sound musical if I really wanted. And this is just a simple punk rock song...
[/quote]

One thing that's interesting in your post is that you do actually quote a song which has a bass line that can be inspected. Do you have a tab of the bassline to this song, or should I work it out by ear to see what you are doing. (I'm guessing the song is on youtube or similar).

However, your post does seem to suggest that knowing theory is in some way a disincentive to use notes that aren't in the key that is currently being played. Is this an accurate interpretation of your post? And if so, why would knowing a scale be a disincentive to use notes not in the most appropriate scale (if any) for the music currently being played? Wouldn't it make it easier to deliberately choose notes not in the scale, because the player will know which notes these are?

[Musicman20]

I learnt some theory back when I started. This was now around 20 years ago when I was 13 ish.

I never used it, to be quite honest. I play and write by ear. Music, to me, is about enjoying yourself and not restricting yourself to a set of 'rules'. As long as it fits, it fits.

Completely understand why a technical lead guitarist playing extremely complex solos may think differently, or indeed a bassist wanting to learn more and learn more 'solo bass'. It just isn't my thing. I don't ever intend to be a musician in the sense of music teacher/turn up at a jazz night and play along; my career took many years to train for and I can't see myself being so studious with music.

We are all different though. If you want to be a full time session player/teacher/etc, and take it as a career, then yes, theory/etc will need to be taken into account.

Plenty of the people I personally look upto as role models never learnt music theory and wrote some amazing songs.

Just a snippet of info from my school days - I took GCSE Music for something fun and creative to do alongside the usual subjects. I only learnt basic theory, never leartn how to read music properly, yet my performance and more importantly, my writing of 3-4 songs with a full band, managed to blag me an A. No idea how that happened...

Bear in mind that most of the others in the lesson were classically trained and could read/write music, play piano/varius other instruments. I could play decent bass, some guitar, basic keys....still no idea how I did it.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Musicman20

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396859043' post='2417908']
One thing that's interesting in your post is that you do actually quote a song which has a bass line that can be inspected. Do you have a tab of the bassline to this song, or should I work it out by ear to see what you are doing. (I'm guessing the song is on youtube or similar).

However, your post does seem to suggest that knowing theory is in some way a disincentive to use notes that aren't in the key that is currently being played. Is this an accurate interpretation of your post? And if so, why would knowing a scale be a disincentive to use notes not in the most appropriate scale (if any) for the music currently being played? Wouldn't it make it easier to deliberately choose notes not in the scale, because the player will know which notes these are?
[/quote]

"Invasion Of The SpiderQueen" is available to listen to on [url=https://soundcloud.com/terrortonemusic/invasion-of-the-spiderqueen-1]Soundcloud[/url].

The verse is predominantly E with a chromatic F# G Ab run for the main riff and then adding in the chords Bb and A in the second half.
The Chorus is A, D, F, E, A, D, F (all major chords).

The main intro/verse riff was written first and the rest of the song came from what sounded good to me and the desire to not reuse chord changes from other songs in the set at the time. Incidentally the "shoop be doop" vocals at the beginning are taken directly from another song that is predominantly in G but still manages to use all the notes except Eb and F!

The use of lots of semi-tone intervals is very much a signature of the genre(s) of music we are playing. When I was playing more pop styled rock 15 years ago I would have stuck far more rigidly to the obvious notes in the scale, although to be fair I wouldn't have been writing songs with the same chord changes in them.

[BassBus]

[quote name='Horizontalste' timestamp='1396858715' post='2417904']
I don't practice scales nor do I know where the modes are. What I do know is what the main ones sound like (major, minor, pentatonic,etc) so it's not overly difficult to find them in whatever position I find myself in.
[/quote]

And there my point is made.

All replies to my post are relevant and valid. However we all have to accept that there are players out there who neither want to or need to spend time learning scales and modes. There are no shoulds or shouldn'ts in life. If you do something there are consequences. If you don't do something there are consequences.

If you spend time learning scales and modes, as has been said, you will be a much more flexible and adaptable player. If you don't you won't be. Neither is right or wrong. I spend time learning scales and modes and enjoy my playing more for it. I also don't feel stuck in a rut. But I do defend the right of those who do not wish or need to spend the time learning such things.

Edited April 7, 2014 by BassBus

[Clarky72]

I spent years with no theory knowledge whatsoever, I just knew where the notes were on the neck. I spent all of my 20s more concerned about my hair onstage than my musical knowledge. The rock music needed no more than half a dozen notes per song, and the simpler it was to play, the more I could prat around onstage. I got the root notes from the guitarist and just followed that for 90% of the set. I've been in a covers band for the past decade and love it. I have spent extensive time working out great musicians basslines from youtube or crappy tab, and only in the last year made a point of sorting my playing out properly.

Before actually learning properly, and I didn't really realise this until I knew otherwise, I didn't learn songs, I just spent hours memorising extensive sequences of notes. I had no knowledge about relationships between notes and why some sounded good with each other and some didn't. My ignorance made learning songs incredibly time consuming and arduous.

Only once I had some lessons, understood some theory, learned some scales did a light at the end of tunnel appear. My tutor was amazed how I'd managed to get by and learn all these songs without understanding a single thing about music.

I'm no Jaco yet, I have a ton to learn still, but I understand my majors, minors, pentatonics, blues and few others, and it has been life-changing and that's no exaggeration. I can pick up a bit of a track by ear and now work the rest out from knowledge of theory.

For years I just couldn't be bothered to learn it properly, and now regret not doing this sooner. I was too concerned about rocking out, getting the girls and looking cool.

Everyone should learn, you're only limiting what you can play, how much you can enjoy what you play and how much time you have to spend working tracks out...

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1396860313' post='2417929']
not restricting yourself to a set of 'rules'. As long as it fits, it fits.
[/quote]

Theory isn't really a set of "Do's and Dont's", but rather a way of recognizing underlying patterns and structures.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1396871114' post='2418122']
Theory isn't really a set of "Do's and Dont's", but rather a way of recognizing underlying patterns and structures.
[/quote]

I recognise it is a very valuable and intrinsic part of music, but for me, and maybe this is my rebellous side, I spend far too long reading about legal updates and I have done for about 8 years now, so to be honest, I don't have time to get to grips with music theory.

Music to me is a stress relief.

I'd rather just learn more on 6 string guitar and write more music.

[Coilte]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1396873085' post='2418164']
I recognise it is a very valuable and intrinsic part of music, but for me, and maybe this is my rebellous side, I spend far too long reading about legal updates and I have done for about 8 years now, so to be honest, I don't have time to get to grips with music theory.

Music to me is a stress relief.

I'd rather just learn more on 6 string guitar and write more music.
[/quote]


I'd say a lot of people will identify with this. What's being argued about is some people's dismissal of theory as being unnecessary and/or limiting.

[discreet]

In my originals band we largely write new material by recording jams - so my basslines tend to start off way too busy, then it's a case of reducing them down to their essence. So if I knew all my scales backwards and forwards I'd be tempted to whizz around the fretboard more than I do already, which is not good - [i]in the context of what I'm doing in this particular band[/i].

I recognise the value of music theory of course and covered it at school, but that was a long time ago...
If people want to practise their scales then I say let 'em do it - I don't mind at all.

[ambient]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1396880148' post='2418284']
In my originals band we largely write new material by recording jams - so my basslines tend to start off way too busy, then it's a case of reducing them down to their essence. So if I knew all my scales backwards and forwards I'd be tempted to whizz around the fretboard more than I do already, which is not good - [i]in the context of what I'm doing in this particular band[/i].

I recognise the value of music theory of course and covered it at school, but that was a long time ago...
If people want to practise their scales then I say let 'em do it - I don't mind at all.
[/quote]

Why would you be tempted to whizz around the fretboard ?

You'd surely stiff play contextual, but maybe know that by using this note instead of that one (or 2), you'd get a more interesting sound ?

Music theory/harmony etc is kind of like cooking. Things maybe are a bit bland with just the basic ingredients, but add a pinch of salt, maybe some pepper and a clove or 2 of garlic and things get a bit interesting. Knowing what you can maybe use here or there, just takes the guess work out of it. It certainly does not stifle your creativity, if anything it enhances it.

[discreet]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1396880727' post='2418294']
Why would you be tempted to whizz around the fretboard?
[/quote]

I tend to do this anyway as part of the creative process. You know - just play ALL the notes to see what they sound like.
If I knew all my scales to the [i]nth[/i] degree, would I be tempted to follow certain patterns and get into particular muscle-memory routines..? Would I end up playing the same things all the time?

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1396880727' post='2418294']
Music theory/harmony etc is kind of like cooking. Knowing what you can maybe use here or there, just takes the guess work out of it. It certainly does not stifle your creativity, if anything it enhances it.
[/quote]

I'm not entirely a stranger to music theory, it's just these days I don't spend a lot of time developing my knowledge of it.
And I don't think that it's likely to stifle anyone's creativity, either - where did I say that?

Edited April 7, 2014 by discreet

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1396881374' post='2418311']
I tend to do this anyway as part of the creative process. You know - just play ALL the notes to see what they sound like.
If I knew all my scales to the [i]nth[/i] degree, would I be tempted to follow certain patterns and get into particular muscle-memory routines..? Would I end up playing the same things all the time?
[/quote]

I've found knowing my scales streamlines the way I come up with basslines... rather than trying ALL the notes, I know a set combination that will work in any given key, not just eight notes up and down, but using multiple octaves of the scale both up and down from the root gives endless posibilities.

Folks tend to think of using scales as playing through them incrementally... thats not really how it works. It's more a pattern of notes that you know will work.

It's not as strict as that really though... it's just a guideline that I find helps me to be more creative.

Edited April 7, 2014 by CamdenRob

[ambient]

If you're playing over a major chord or riff, you know how the 6th sounds played after the root, you also know that you could maybe play off the 6th, and play its 3rd, (the relative minor). Knowing what you can play, and how they sound enhances what you play, and means you don't necessarily have to play a whole load of notes searching for the one.

[BigRedX]

But knowing what notes sound best with which chord depends a lot on subjective taste and the style of music you are playing. I really can't stand 3rds - they always sound "out of tune to me) and usually replace them with 9ths or 4ths depending on what has come before and what comes next.

However these days I rarely think in terms of chords and what notes work over them, but instead listen to the "tune" of the what the rest of the instruments and vocals are doing and fit the bass around and over that.

[ambient]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1396883388' post='2418348']
But knowing what notes sound best with which chord depends a lot on subjective taste and the style of music you are playing. I really can't stand 3rds - they always sound "out of tune to me) and usually replace them with 9ths or 4ths depending on what has come before and what comes next.

However these days I rarely think in terms of chords and what notes work over them, but instead listen to the "tune" of the what the rest of the instruments and vocals are doing and fit the bass around and over that.
[/quote]

Exactly.

I just had to compose a solo over a jazz tune. I did look at the chart too much, I just wrote wanted sounded 'right' from one bar to the next. I then had to analyse what I'd written.

[Bilbo]

The truth is that, if you are playing pop/rock/funk etc, you are almost never going to come across anything that needs and intimate knowledge of the altered dominant scale and its associated chords (there are a tiny number of exceptions but they are rare). Deal with the Major, Minor and Diminished scales and all their modes and you will pretty much have it (pentatonics are only major and minor scales with notes left out). THat is three scales (one of which only has two variants x 12 notes = 26 scales to learn. It's a days work.