Does everyone erm ....know their scales?

[Musicman20]

I can 'hear' a bass line / guitar part / even sometimes vocals and drum paterns in my head, usually way before I pick up an instrument. Then I'll try and get what I can hear into a part of a song.

The brain is a strange and fascinating organ. I still find it odd that I can have essentially a 'jukebox' in my head if I know a song or album well enough.

Totally off topic.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1396885222' post='2418380']
I can 'hear' a bass line / guitar part / even sometimes vocals and drum paterns in my head, usually way before I pick up an instrument. Then I'll try and get what I can hear into a part of a song.

The brain is a strange and fascinating organ. I still find it odd that I can have essentially a 'jukebox' in my head if I know a song or album well enough.

Totally off topic.
[/quote]

That's quite enough about your fascinating organ, Gareth ! This is a family show.

I'm not aiming these remarks specifically at Gareth or indeed his impressive organ, but I have said it before and I'll say it again, people who claim not to want to learn some music theory are in fact using music theory just the same as people who do make an effort to learn some , they are just making much harder work of it for themselves as they try and discover for themselves by accident what is basic musical knowledge . If someone takes the" experimenting and seeing how it sounds" approach , they are in effect just spending their time inventing the wheel all over again . Someone who went before you already knows how it is going to sound, so why not learn from them and get cracking with playing some music ?

Music is essentially organized sound, and everyone needs to know how to conform to the same rules , [i]especially[/i] if ultimately they want to break those rules. If you are a lazy person like me, it is much easier to learn some applied theory than to have to spend years discovering it for yourself. Thank goodness my dad sent me for lessons with a jazz musician when I first started playing, because it helped me get my priorities right.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1396884888' post='2418374']
The truth is that, if you are playing pop/rock/funk etc, you are almost never going to come across anything that needs and intimate knowledge of the altered dominant scale and its associated chords (there are a tiny number of exceptions but they are rare). Deal with the Major, Minor and Diminished scales and all their modes and you will pretty much have it (pentatonics are only major and minor scales with notes left out). THat is three scales (one of which only has two variants x 12 notes = 26 scales to learn. It's a days work.
[/quote]

I really need to do some work on diminished scales and their application. I will let you know how I go on.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1396883388' post='2418348']
But knowing what notes sound best with which chord depends a lot on subjective taste and the style of music you are playing. I really can't stand 3rds - they always sound "out of tune to me) and usually replace them with 9ths or 4ths depending on what has come before and what comes next.

However these days I rarely think in terms of chords and what notes work over them, but instead listen to the "tune" of the what the rest of the instruments and vocals are doing and fit the bass around and over that.
[/quote]

To make those kind of informed choices, you are obviously benefiting from knowing some music theory.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1396887303' post='2418420']
To make those kind of informed choices, you are obviously benefiting from knowing some music theory.
[/quote]

Yes. As I said in my first post in this thread in my teens I worked out the intervals in the major, minor and pentatonic scales, which got me started.

However, I've always used what I can hear in my head as the end point when composing. It gives me tunes that sound good to me rather than ones that are easy to play or fall neatly into one of the scales.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1396890650' post='2418454']
Yes. As I said in my first post in this thread in my teens I worked out the intervals in the major, minor and pentatonic scales, which got me started.

However, I've always used what I can hear in my head as the end point when composing. It gives me tunes that sound good to me rather than ones that are easy to play or fall neatly into one of the scales.
[/quote]

Ay this is kind of how I think.

However, Dingus, I totally understand that in a way, I am 'hearing' the music theory...and one day if I have time I'll look into learning a little more.

I was a punk rocker playing fast NOFX/Rancid bass in the 90s. I still like that stuff, but my interest in more song based music like The Beatles has taken over. Both don't, as yet, need me to do anymore than be able to hear what I need to play (or want to play if writing).

I do need to get much better on guitar so at the moment, that takes preference.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1396862812' post='2417968']
"Invasion Of The SpiderQueen" is available to listen to on [url="https://soundcloud.com/terrortonemusic/invasion-of-the-spiderqueen-1"]Soundcloud[/url].

The verse is predominantly E with a chromatic F# G Ab run for the main riff and then adding in the chords Bb and A in the second half.
The Chorus is A, D, F, E, A, D, F (all major chords).

The main intro/verse riff was written first and the rest of the song came from what sounded good to me and the desire to not reuse chord changes from other songs in the set at the time. Incidentally the "shoop be doop" vocals at the beginning are taken directly from another song that is predominantly in G but still manages to use all the notes except Eb and F!

The use of lots of semi-tone intervals is very much a signature of the genre(s) of music we are playing. When I was playing more pop styled rock 15 years ago I would have stuck far more rigidly to the obvious notes in the scale, although to be fair I wouldn't have been writing songs with the same chord changes in them.
[/quote]

I have now had the chance to listen to your music properly. (I recognised that I have heard the song before, and have listened to Trench Stench a fair bit for reasons you may be able to guess).

Looking at the chords, it sounds to me that the chorus is in A, which would make the chords in the chorus I, IV, bVI, IV, V, I , IV, bVI. Provided that I've identified the key correctly, the only non-diatonic chord there is the flat-sixth chord, which is a common borrowed chord, from the parallel minor key. The verse to me sounds to be in E major with the Bb and A chords being bV and IV. The bV is an unusual chord, but if you were writing on the bass, the flattened fifth note is from the blues scale, and is commonly used in music in genres similar to/overlapping with The Terrortones. Some weeks ago on here (I can search for the post if you want) I mentioned how I was practicing featuring the flattened fifth in bass riffs, even though I was doing so in a wish to expand my use of scales.

There are chromatic runs in your bassline, but I think it's easy to increase the notes used even more without wrecking the song. Though, the maxim less is more has been severely broken. I didn't do this for all the song, but here is a modified bassline.


New main riff.

[font=courier new,courier,monospace]G:---------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]D:---22334---44556-----------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]A:---------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]E:-00-----000----------------------------------------------------------------[/font]

And on the last repetition of this riff before the chorus, I reverse the direction of the last chromatic run so that it becomes:


[font=courier new,courier,monospace]G:----------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]D:---22334----66554-----------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]A:----------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]E:-00------000----------------------------------------------------------------[/font]


The chorus itself can have loads more chromatic runs added with it still appearing to fit the song (reminder: I'm not claiming this is an improvement - just not a complete ruining of the song). E.g.

[font=courier new,courier,monospace]G:---------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]D:-------0-01234-------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]A:-0-1234--------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]
[font=courier new,courier,monospace]E:----------------1-123210-01234---------------------------------------------[/font]

(chorus repeats)

Just the chorus includes every chromatic note from the open E string to F# on the D string, with the verse going to G# on that string.

If anyone would hidebound by scales it should be me I think, as I've concentrated on scales a lot and can't play well. But, I found it easy to modify your bassline to be pretty much all chromatic runs, even though I'm very pro-theory.

I don't feel that someone who has learnt theory is particularly unlikely or is going to be unable to come up with music such as your song.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[BigRedX]

AT,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately a combination of HTML codes and my dyslexia have rendered your post incomprehensible to me.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1396909597' post='2418762']
AT,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately a combination of HTML codes and my dyslexia have rendered your post incomprehensible to me.
[/quote]

Is the edited version better? (It took quite some work to remove the HTML codes that seem to appear in my posts at random).

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396909801' post='2418764']
Is the edited version better? (It took quite some work to remove the HTML codes that seem to appear in my posts at random).
[/quote]

That's loads better. I'll have a play with that tomorrow and let you know what I think.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1396910716' post='2418776']
That's loads better. I'll have a play with that tomorrow and let you know what I think.
[/quote]

It's not meant to be an improvement of the song. It's just me experimenting with the musical concepts that you've used, from my personal highly scale and theory orientated perspective.

[dand666]

[quote name='Clarky72' timestamp='1396869785' post='2418103']
I spent years with no theory knowledge whatsoever, I just knew where the notes were on the neck. I spent all of my 20s more concerned about my hair onstage than my musical knowledge. The rock music needed no more than half a dozen notes per song, and the simpler it was to play, the more I could prat around onstage. I got the root notes from the guitarist and just followed that for 90% of the set. I've been in a covers band for the past decade and love it. I have spent extensive time working out great musicians basslines from youtube or crappy tab, and only in the last year made a point of sorting my playing out properly.

Before actually learning properly, and I didn't really realise this until I knew otherwise, I didn't learn songs, I just spent hours memorising extensive sequences of notes. I had no knowledge about relationships between notes and why some sounded good with each other and some didn't. My ignorance made learning songs incredibly time consuming and arduous.

Only once I had some lessons, understood some theory, learned some scales did a light at the end of tunnel appear. My tutor was amazed how I'd managed to get by and learn all these songs without understanding a single thing about music.

I'm no Jaco yet, I have a ton to learn still, but I understand my majors, minors, pentatonics, blues and few others, and it has been life-changing and that's no exaggeration. I can pick up a bit of a track by ear and now work the rest out from knowledge of theory.

For years I just couldn't be bothered to learn it properly, and now regret not doing this sooner. I was too concerned about rocking out, getting the girls and looking cool.

Everyone should learn, you're only limiting what you can play, how much you can enjoy what you play and how much time you have to spend working tracks out...
[/quote]

This.

[ubit]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1396873085' post='2418164']


I recognise it is a very valuable and intrinsic part of music, but for me, and maybe this is my rebellous side, I spend far too long reading about legal updates and I have done for about 8 years now, so to be honest, I don't have time to get to grips with music theory.

Music to me is a stress relief.

I'd rather just learn more on 6 string guitar and write more music.
[/quote]


I've had a rudimentary grip on six string guitar for years now, I always just wanted to play the bass, but about a year ago, I decided to take it further and have been taking lessons off this guy who is a virtuoso. I can't tell you how much more I understand the fretboard and appreciate the nuances of playing something somewhere else to add that..what's French for je ne sais quoi? So I'd say yes to any of that kind of stuff !

[steve-bbb]

[url="http://dangerousminds.net/comments/mindblowing_psychedelia_from_thailand"]http://dangerousminds.net/comments/mindblowing_psychedelia_from_thailand[/url]

[url="http://youtu.be/IYGl-l0Toig"]http://youtu.be/IYGl-l0Toig[/url]

[ubit]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1397463096' post='2424017']
[url="http://dangerousminds.net/comments/mindblowing_psychedelia_from_thailand"]http://dangerousmind...a_from_thailand[/url]

[media]http://youtu.be/IYGl-l0Toig[/media]
[/quote]
That's strangely relaxing. I enjoyed that!

[muso]

Modes are really useful as its really just displacing the starting point of a scale - I use them regularly when playing jazz....

[uncle psychosis]

It always seems to me that there are lots of guitarists (and some bass players) who genuinely think that knowing some theory will somehow inhibit creativity. I think these people think that players that know theory are constantly thinking "right this is a Dm7 chord...so erm...right...what do the textbooks say I can play again?". The reality is that its not like that. Having a proper grasp of music theory is to music as spelling and grammar are to language. I don't conciously need to think about how to spell words, form sentences, or punctuate properly---it happens so quickly that its completely natural. Thats the end point of learning music theory---knowing what you're doing without thinking about it.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1398254874' post='2432072']
It always seems to me that there are lots of guitarists (and some bass players) who genuinely think that knowing some theory will somehow inhibit creativity. I think these people think that players that know theory are constantly thinking "right this is a Dm7 chord...so erm...right...what do the textbooks say I can play again?". The reality is that its not like that. Having a proper grasp of music theory is to music as spelling and grammar are to language. I don't conciously need to think about how to spell words, form sentences, or punctuate properly---it happens so quickly that its completely natural. Thats the end point of learning music theory---knowing what you're doing without thinking about it.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.

I haven't visited this thread for a while and don't really need to read back through everything now, this post says it all...

[Myke]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1398254874' post='2432072']
It always seems to me that there are lots of guitarists (and some bass players) who genuinely think that knowing some theory will somehow inhibit creativity. I think these people think that players that know theory are constantly thinking "right this is a Dm7 chord...so erm...right...what do the textbooks say I can play again?". The reality is that its not like that. Having a proper grasp of music theory is to music as spelling and grammar are to language. I don't conciously need to think about how to spell words, form sentences, or punctuate properly---it happens so quickly that its completely natural. Thats the end point of learning music theory---knowing what you're doing without thinking about it.
[/quote]

This sums it up perfectly!

[The Funk]

Do Re Mi Fa Koff

[Marvin]

I know the major and minor scale, but not all over the fretboard and I understand the concept of harmonising a scale. That's it. Otherwise it's just trial and error partly as I don't have the time to learn anymore and I can't really be arsed.

I don't think I'll ever understand modes though.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='The Funk' timestamp='1398273455' post='2432372']
Do Re Mi Fa Koff
[/quote]

Augmented Major Faux Pas scale