Dad3353 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397080442' post='2420558']...if you don’t know what a scale is the chances are you are pretty cr*p…[/quote] [sharedmedia=core:attachments:147744] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diablo Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397080442' post='2420558'] if you don’t know what a scale is the chances are you are pretty cr*p… [/quote] major...minor....pentatonic...err... gets coat and leaves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 im still trying to find the carlos santana secret chord progression Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397080442' post='2420558'] No, you are completely misunderstanding me. I am not the slightest bit interested in the various credentials that you quote above and you certainly do not need to have passed graded musical exams to be a competent rock / pop musician (quite the opposite in some cases)! However, there are limits and if you don’t know what a scale is the chances are you are pretty cr*p… [/quote] In my own personal experience individual musical ability doesn't necessarily mean that you can play competently as a band. I had a short stint as bassist in a covers band where everyone was at least competent and the two guitarists and singer were very good musicians, but as a band it never seemed to me to come together. The individual ability was there. The songs being covers were most definitely there, but the band performance was not. Certainly not in the same way that my originals band was tight, organised and able to play our way out of nearly any musical catastrophe at a gig, despite have a much lower standard overall of musical ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 It is a good subject.... players and band choices. When I put units together I normally have an idea of what we want to do and then you pick the players to fit that. I might decide that the band is formed with one person's strenghts and go from that.... but at some point you need to find out about more than the notes. My current band's first version was pretty strong in my mind as the 4 instruments sounded 'great' in the first loose busk. We added a drummer who completed the line-up and altho I am massively picky about drummers, I was put on the guy as a second pick and even then, he wasn't someone on my radar. But it turned out really well even tho his bias is on the heavier side and mine is more funky. We had to change that line-up... and went thru various 'top' local guys ( they play in the best bands, so..?? ) and it wasn't quite convincing..and that reaffirmed how good drummer number one was. We hadn't really come out the other side even when we added a monster drummer and it wasn't until we depped the gtr that the chemistry has returned to where I want it. I say 'I' as this kind of mixing up is my thing and the other guys have come to trust it. Current incarnation is going to be our best yet....which pleases me no end, but there is a huge difference between playing chemistry and personal chemistry... so the trick is to sort out what you can live with and put up with... We will hit much better highs now, but we may have lower lows... so time will tell if that REALLY works out but atm, I am pretty excited about this unit. Hopefully, the music cures..mostly..all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spinynorman Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1396976148' post='2419380'] And yet I don't see them inviting electricians and caterers to work there in exchange for a free ticket. [/quote] I was a marshall at Silverstone years ago. It's all done by volunteers. To get to be a marshall at all you have to be prepared to commit to turn up regularly and go to training sessions. To marshall the grand prix, you need several years experience, have marshalled other races pretty much every weekend all year and go into a lottery with a large number of equally qualified F1 fanatics, all desperate for a place. I think some medical staff are volunteers too, including St John's Ambulance. Catering is franchised, so the punters pay directly, or it's hospitality catering laid on by sponsors for their guests. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find there are electricians working there for nothing on the day. I don't think any of the volunteers work out an hourly rate based on the cost of the ticket to decide if it's worth it. It's an event they want to be part of and something they're very happy to contribute their time to, even if someone else somewhere is making a fortune out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1397114793' post='2420688'] In my own personal experience individual musical ability doesn't necessarily mean that you can play competently as a band. I had a short stint as bassist in a covers band where everyone was at least competent and the two guitarists and singer were very good musicians, but as a band it never seemed to me to come together. The individual ability was there. The songs being covers were most definitely there, but the band performance was not. Certainly not in the same way that my originals band was tight, organised and able to play our way out of nearly any musical catastrophe at a gig, despite have a much lower standard overall of musical ability. [/quote] It is one thing to know a bit of theory and being able to play impressive stuff in your bedroom, but if you can’t play together with other musicians in a band then you are not what I would call a competent musician – or at least not in the context of popular beat combos so prevalent in the past 50 years or so! It could be that your originals band were better all round players than your more flashy covers band. You do not necessarily have to be a technically amazing player to play in a great band and you don’t need to be Jaco to play in AC/DC (insert other similar example of a band in a genre of your choice here)! You can be a good bass player by doing the simple things well, having a bit of feel and knowing how to lock in with a drummer (you still need to know what a f**kin scale is though)… Edited April 11, 2014 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1396791814' post='2417344'] Next time I help my elderly neighbour by mowing his lawn or fixing his guttering, I'll be sure to charge him the going rate and donate the proceeds to the local care home for retired gardners & builders, who I'm putting out of business. [/quote] Out of interest - how would you feel if you mowed his lawn and he then opened up his garden to paying customers to hold garden parties in and pocketed the proceeds ? BTW - If folk here are really anti-taking money for being involved in gigging while other folk make money off their labours... I can always use a roadie to hump and dump all my gear while I sit on my fat arse having a pint , and I'll happily pay you f*** all for it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I'm not anti taking money for things, just that it's not constantly on my mind. I'm unlikely to do stuff I don't like unless I'm paid for it, but I'm equally happy to do stuff I enjoy without thought of making money from it. Isn't that the point of enjoying something? For it's own sake? From my perspective, it seems like there are a lot of miserable people out there who are only willing to play music if there's a few bob in it for them. Nothing wrong with that per se, their choice etc etc, but there are other approaches to life as well. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397474666' post='2424177'] I'm not anti taking money for things, just that it's not constantly on my mind. I'm unlikely to do stuff I don't like unless I'm paid for it, but I'm equally happy to do stuff I enjoy without thought of making money from it. Isn't that the point of enjoying something? For it's own sake? From my perspective, it seems like there are a lot of miserable people out there who are only willing to play music if there's a few bob in it for them. Nothing wrong with that per se, their choice etc etc, but there are other approaches to life as well. That's all. [/quote] If there's nothing wrong with that - why refer to them as 'miserable' ? Other than that - same here. I'm just happy to be playing - but 90% of the playing I do creates revenue for someone so I think it right and proper that I share in that. If this makes sense - I think it more important to take money from those making it by utilising my services than for me to actually receive it. You have to put some value on your time and aquired skills and in the world of business - which pubs are - the currency tends to be money. I've had arrangements where I was offered 40 pints credit or £50 cash - and I took the pints I was just as happy......Frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397233267' post='2422099'] It is one thing to know a bit of theory and being able to play impressive stuff in your bedroom, but if you can’t play together with other musicians in a band then you are not what I would call a competent musician – or at least not in the context of popular beat combos so prevalent in the past 50 years or so! It could be that your originals band were better all round players than your more flashy covers band. You do not necessarily have to be a technically amazing player to play in a great band and you don’t need to be Jaco to play in AC/DC (insert other similar example of a band in a genre of your choice here)! You can be a good bass player by doing the simple things well, having a bit of feel and knowing how to lock in with a drummer (you still need to know what a f**kin scale is though)… [/quote] I think it was more that as a particular group of musicians we just didn't work as a band, and the the others didn't seem to be prepared to put in what I considered the right amount of extra rehearsal time to make it work together to the standard that I would have been happy with. I'd seen all the others in the covers band play in other bands and the standard was more than competent both individually and as a member of the band. However in this particular combination I never felt it was really happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 And here they come... charity beer festivals... It is the season........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassnut62 Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) I don't think there is anything wrong with taking money or not taking money as a band/musician.....whether as a hobbyist or a pro. Surely it has to come down to personal choice; but we should recognise the impact that not taking money could have on pro-musicians/bands out there. However pro-musicians (which I am not), have to be realistic about the forces at play in the market; Pros too have the power to choose.....to make their living that way or not. No operator in a market can expect the market to be rigged in line with their personal views.....the market will always do as it collectively pleases. So it seems we just have to make our own personal choices for our own personal circumstances. The pros could perhaps take comfort from the fact that if they are good enough to draw punters and have luck on their side they will make money (if they take care of business), whatever forces operate in the market. Also the venues that do genuinely commit to putting on live music should be respected as important supporters of musicians too. However I do really object to other non-music businesses trying to take advantage of musicians in ways that they would not dream of doing with other members of their extended team, e.g. electricians, chefs, etc. In the piece that I originally posted to start this thread, it seemed like this was a restaurant or bar with no real interest in promoting live music, trying to take advantage of local musicians to add value to their own business; i.e. make non-music money off the back of musicians.....and that ain't on in my book! Similarly, charity events are often great and worthy of support; but if they are paying other 'talent' for the event, e.g. chefs, compere, PA & staging companies, etc, then why should they not pay the musicians too. If the musicians and other suppliers then choose to donate all or some of their fees back to the charity that is then their choice. Of course, if everyone is supplying a charity event for free, then why should the musicians get paid. They can instead choose not to play; as we did recently, purely for the fact that this particularly event has a reputation for being shambolic and poorly attended, which doesn't make me want to play for free...not least because it could be dangerous.....a free or hobbyist electrician, may not be a good thing to have! Edited April 14, 2014 by Bassnut62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I mentioned charity beer festivals and some are infamous for not paying the chief talent which is the bands. Nobody is going to come and see the P.A soundman stack his gear, or the marquee guys put up a tent etc etc but they get a free bill because bands have allowed this to be 'acceptable. Year in year out, these places will get their bills sorted...for free, so if it is so easy, then why on earth would some businessman incorporate a cost they didn't have to. So therefore, the better bands will not play them.. or mostly, better, as in they know their worth to venues... You aren't going to break this chain unless people don't play them... and since a few will hide behind the charity thing... these places should publish how much they raised. I'd be expecting a huge bar slice to be in there too... wouldn't I..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 The reputable festivals have health and saftety crawling all over them... The reason I push a local one round here is that I know what the budget is and I know how hard they work to make it a success and how other 'events' don't... The relaxing of the license laws has a LOT to answer for as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 [quote name='Dr.Dave' timestamp='1397475910' post='2424197'] If there's nothing wrong with that - why refer to them as 'miserable' ? [/quote] Fair point. There must be a better word for someone who won't get out of bed unless they're being paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397487525' post='2424390'] Fair point. There must be a better word for someone who won't get out of bed unless they're being paid. [/quote] "Professional"? Or maybe someone with a bit if pride who demands to be paid for providing a service that other parties are making money from?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Both fair comments. All I'm asking is that people accept there are alternative motivations, because people are all different and there is no single right or wrong. I'm surprised this is so difficult to accept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I suppose that the problem (if there be one) is that music is one of the few business sectors where hobbyists can provide services in a commercial environment. One generally does not get hobbyist electricians, plumbers or bar-staff; were that the case, there might be similar debates raging on plumbers' forums. The fact is that a landlord or a chariddee can fill vacant stage space with tolerably engaging acts without the troublesome need for payment. I do not see things changing until such time as the MU decides to target malfeasants or BassChat is prepared to fund a van to transport a bevy of flying pickets. [size=3]No, not [i]those[/i] Flying Pickets.[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1397495473' post='2424492'] I suppose that the problem (if there be one) is that music is one of the few business sectors where hobbyists can provide services in a commercial environment. [/quote] Agreed, though I might question 'one of the few'. I've known people use a friend for their wedding photos or a video. Many arable farmers are more than happy to allow shooting enthusiasts to rid their land of vermin. Someone else has already mentioned mentioned volunteer marshals at motor racing circuits. St Johns Ambulance is largely reliant on volunteers (as was the London Olympics as I recall) and I'm sure there are many other examples. Before "Indignant from Tunbridge Wells" chimes in to point out that such things are a travesty and taking advantage of people, well that could well be the case, except that the only people who are really in a position to judge are those willing to do such things for no financial reward. Those among us who would feel aggrieved about such arrangements are not going to participate are they? So what's the problem? The argument of 'it spoils things for others who want to be paid' would lead us all down a very rocky road - one that has been tried, tested and found seriously wanting during the 'good old' days of the closed shop. Do we really want to return to such times and be challenged about what gives us the right to play a musical instrument, unless we're in the MU of course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) Oi, I'm not from Tunbridge Wells. but.....I do generally have the POV that there are too many bands able to ply their trade, altho that is stretching it as they are actually giving it away, but there you go..!! and..too many pubs putting on ad hoc music dates.. Now..for the punter, this is 'great' in terms of choice but it does not help the person wishing to sell his skills. And I don't see why some hobbyists should be regarded as a free touch when they may well have put in far more time or effort than your plumber. Staying off the charity theme here, which I feel is 'abused', but free bands are setting a precedent to quite a large degree, so it is not true to say they don't or shouldn't affect proper bands. They do... as their very willingness means so many venues/pubs will have line-up staffed entirely by bands doing it fo free. And on that basis, we could not get near that gig even if we wanted to. As it turns out we work enough ...but basically you can blame bands for the crap conditions they work for because they put up with it or, worse, they actively seek it out. Do I or would ! want some sort of affilated register for bands and venues that accompanies a license or something. Yes, I think I would.... so if that means bands need PLI and PAT, for example and venues need the same and a certified stage wiring loom etc etc... then that is good if only for a safety POV. Once you have had to pay for that... then the game isn't free anymore, it costs... Basically we are treated like amatuers because we behave like them... Edited April 15, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397487525' post='2424390'] Fair point. There must be a better word for someone who won't get out of bed unless they're being paid. [/quote] Well that word won't be musician in my experience. How about promoter or landlord. The same experience tells me they're a much better fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1397545683' post='2424904'] Do I or would ! want some sort of affilated register for bands and venues that accompanies a license or something. Yes, I think I would.... so if that means bands need PLI and PAT, for example and venues need the same and a certified stage wiring loom etc etc... then that is good if only for a safety POV. Once you have had to pay for that... then the game isn't free anymore, it costs... [/quote] Oh dear. Centralised regulation of music. What a dreadfully depressing picture of an authoritarian state that paints. It's a valid opinion of course, but not one that I would ever like to see implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I kind of agree that regulation can bring as many issues with it than it may solve... but as I say, if it elevates the game out of amatuer hour, then I think that is good as whole. In fact...despite our reservations, if that is all it achieved, I think I would vote for it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1397563344' post='2425141']...In fact...despite our reservations, if that is all it achieved, I think I would vote for it...[/quote] In such a State, you probably wouldn't have any meaningful 'vote'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.