Musicians expected to play for nothing by 'generous' venues

[flyfisher]

. . . or a choice of what to play.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397503016' post='2424604']
Agreed, though I might question 'one of the few' ... I'm sure there are many other examples.
[/quote]

Good point. The Defence Of Our Realm is partially entrusted to volunteers while our streets are patrolled by Special Constables. Rescue teams and lifeboats are crewed by unpaid experts. In these most hazardous of situations the amateur and the professional work side by side.

The entertainment sector is somewhat more stratified: for example, local am-dram groups tend to mount their own productions while professional theatre actors work an established circuit of dedicated venues. Full time professional musicians at a stellar level rarely work the same stages as amateurs and semi-pros (although Mr Clapton has been known to play the odd village hall gig).

That the amateur and the professional spheres overlap in [i]some[/i] industries but [i]not[/i] in others is an interesting phenomenon. But pending an unlikely change in legislation I cannot see things changing in respect of pub bands.

It is strange that so many lobbied for a relaxation in licensing laws yet the consequence is a pressure on those bands who have customarily charged for their services. On balance, more gigs is a good thing; yet I feel a sympathy for those who have invested in their craft and in building a reputation.

[JTUK]

Of course, I'd have a a choice.
I would still determine what jobs I actually took, but the point is that
it would eliminate the chancer venue as I call them. And of course, the chancer band.
Do I think it would cure all woes...of course not? just like a 'qualified ' plumber isn't always
the guy you want to call, but at least it teaches people they expect to pay..and then budget for that
in their operations.
It is a far from ideal resolution, admittedly, but then neither is a whole summer of free gigs put on by
people whose only reference to free or charity is the actual whole draw to the event..the music/bands, typically.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1397566708' post='2425184']
In such a State, you probably wouldn't have any meaningful 'vote'...
[/quote]

What state..?? it would only be a music bill, where any event needed certain appliance.
Something not far on from the old music license with a few more bells on it... that is all.

[JTUK]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1397570216' post='2425218']
..............
It is strange that so many lobbied for a relaxation in licensing laws yet the consequence is a pressure on those bands who have customarily charged for their services. On balance, more gigs is a good thing; yet I feel a sympathy for those who have invested in their craft and in building a reputation.
[/quote]

You ( I ) just knew a relaxation of the licensing laws would not help...
It did exactly what we all knew it would do... allow more venues carte blanche to
do what ever they wanted and that allowed bands to pour forward and offer their services for free.
I don't think I knew a serious musician who thought otherwise... as they are the ones that need
the income. They still work but the pay has remained static or even dropped off...and you can put a lot
of this down to the economic times of the past 5 years, but I also bet there are plenty here who
go out for the same money they did 15 years ago...?? and my question is what is keeping doen those
fees..?? For one, the fact that venues can get very cheap/free music...
IMO.

Anyway, I'll keep going for the discussion's sake... it is all banter, not looking to crucify anyone here over it

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1397570975' post='2425236']
You ( I ) just knew a relaxation of the licensing laws would not help...
It did exactly what we all knew it would do... allow more venues carte blanche to
do what ever they wanted . . .
[/quote]

Imagine that! Removing red tape and allowing people to do what they want, when they want, how they want.

But that's the trouble with freedom . . . People do what they want with it

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397581639' post='2425399']
Imagine that! Removing red tape and allowing people to do what they want, when they want, how they want.

But that's the trouble with freedom . . . People do what they want with it
[/quote]

Well, I understand you are all for a free market and limited legislation ..and I broadly agree, but sometimes people take it too far...
as the bankers did, and the MP's did, etc etc, so yes, sometimes you can't trust all people, all of the time.
I mean, why have any sort of law, if that wasn't the case..??

In this case, IMO, the relaxing of the license law has lead to a bit of a mess and 'free' for all.
and it doesn't benefit musicians..IMO..which is what we care about

[Dad3353]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1397584697' post='2425435']...
and it doesn't benefit [b]some[/b] musicians..IMO..which is what [s]we[/s] [b]some of us[/b] care about
[/quote]

Fixed

[peteb]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1397584697' post='2425435']


Well, I understand you are all for a free market and limited legislation ..and I broadly agree, but sometimes people take it too far...
as the bankers did, and the MP's did, etc etc, so yes, sometimes you can't trust all people, all of the time.
I mean, why have any sort of law, if that wasn't the case..??

In this case, IMO, the relaxing of the license law has lead to a bit of a mess and 'free' for all.
and it doesn't benefit musicians..IMO..which is what we care about
[/quote]
I am not too sure that you can really equate the abuses of the banking sector wrecking the economy with too many cr*p bands playing in too many cr*p bars destabilising the pub rock market…!

It’s the poor people that to pubs that put these type of bands on that I feel sorry for. Too many casual punters have had to endure terrible performances from bands that are not good enough to get paid. Hardly encourages them to support live music does it?

However, the real reason that fees have not gone up in 15 years is because pubs are generally struggling. If they were full and making money, landlords would be paying more to compete for the best bands like they were 15 years ago…

[flyfisher]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397589951' post='2425511']
It’s the poor people that to pubs that put these type of bands on that I feel sorry for. Too many casual punters have had to endure terrible performances from bands that are not good enough to get paid. Hardly encourages them to support live music does it?
[/quote]

Do you really think people are stupid enough to 'endure terrible performances'? And, as everyone keeps saying, if landlords are only interested in selling beer then they are hardly likely to allow a band to play if it drives away customers - paid or free.

This all sounds like sour grapes to me.

I can understand why bands that want to earn money with their playing get all upset about other bands that are happy to play for a few free drinks, but that's life. What next, shall we all get upset about how PC technology and the internet is allowing amateur bands to put out their own music, thereby 'undercutting the professionals'?

Things might be tough for the aspiring professional musician but calls for increased regulation to restrict things just to give themselves a better chance is tantamount to admitting their own failure.

[peteb]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397590964' post='2425520']


Do you really think people are stupid enough to 'endure terrible performances'? And, as everyone keeps saying, if landlords are only interested in selling beer then they are hardly likely to allow a band to play if it drives away customers - paid or free.

This all sounds like sour grapes to me.

I can understand why bands that want to earn money with their playing get all upset about other bands that are happy to play for a few free drinks, but that's life. What next, shall we all get upset about how PC technology and the internet is allowing amateur bands to put out their own music, thereby 'undercutting the professionals'?

Things might be tough for the aspiring professional musician but calls for increased regulation to restrict things just to give themselves a better chance is tantamount to admitting their own failure.
[/quote]
Do you play many pub gigs??

There are always punters who are not regular gig goers who will wander in off the street to see some live entertainment. If they see a good band that puts on a decent show they will probably come back for more next week. If the band is terrible they will make a point of not coming back!

Landlords who know what they are doing will try and pick and choose their bands and obviously be prepared to pay. However, if you play the pub circuit you will have noticed that in the last ten years there has been an increase in landlords who really don’t know the pub trade at all, yet alone live entertainment (as pointed out by Skank above a while ago). These are the type who tend to be seduced by the idea of getting something for nothing and then will moan about bands emptying pubs!

However, I quite agree that increasing regulation is unworkable and, frankly, a touch ridiculous…

[Big_Stu]

I was stunned to find, when I went to my old home town, last week that the last pub that took live bads on hat closed down some time before. When I was younger I'd be in there three nights a week at least & they had bands on for two them.
RIP "The Wellie"
The pub I first ever played live in, same town, shut down many a year ago & is semi-derelict with steel curtains now. RIP "Weavers Arms"

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397590964' post='2425520']
....................
Things might be tough for the aspiring professional musician [b]but calls for increased regulation to restrict things just to give themselves a better chance is tantamount to admitting their own failure.[/b]
[/quote]

No, it isn't... it is the same as plumbers...to use that trade... not being totally in love with 'free' plumbers.
We all know bands work for free for their own reasons...and generally they are more keen to do the gig rather
than charge because then they would probably loose the gig... I can't myself, say, I am that upset about this state
of affairs because I doubt it affects me that much..and I don't expect any legislation to happen either.
But in an ideal world, I think less venues would mean a rise in standards all round, as the better bands would
be the ones getting those gigs. There are only a finite number of people going to watch live music but
they would populate those fewer venues so this could lead to them being able to afford to pay more.
..in theory.

Haing said that...I am not unhappy with the money we get or the amount of gigs that come our way.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397592704' post='2425549']
Do you play many pub gigs??

There are always punters who are not regular gig goers who will wander in off the street to see some live entertainment. If they see a good band that puts on a decent show they will probably come back for more next week. If the band is terrible they will make a point of not coming back!
[/quote]

Probably not many compared to a semi-pro band, I played about 20 gigs last year across both bands and about 1/3rd of them in pubs.

I recognise your scenarios and am sure it happens but my feeling is that is must surely be self-regulating. A really good band has nothing to fear and a really bad band will not last long. Yes, casual punters may walk into a pub if they hear live music and buy a pint, but they'll also soon leave if the band is no good. If enough people never come back then the pub will stop having bands - paid or not.


[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397592704' post='2425549']
Landlords who know what they are doing will try and pick and choose their bands and obviously be prepared to pay. However, if you play the pub circuit you will have noticed that in the last ten years there has been an increase in landlords who really don’t know the pub trade at all, yet alone live entertainment (as pointed out by Skank above a while ago). These are the type who tend to be seduced by the idea of getting something for nothing and then will moan about bands emptying pubs!
[/quote]

Again, I'm sure that's all correct but I suspect it's symptomatic of bigger things. The music business has changed immensely over recent decades and, as we've discussed many times, music is a much-devalued commodity these days. That's not to say that it's not important to people, more that they've become accustomed to not having to pay very much for it, while having more of it at their fingertips than they can actually listen to in their whole lifetime. PC recording technology and the internet has made it possible for bands to easily put out their music such that the world is now awash with music. Some might be crap but some is fantastic . . . but, hasn't that always been the way?

[peteb]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397595226' post='2425581']


Probably not many compared to a semi-pro band, I played about 20 gigs last year across both bands and about 1/3rd of them in pubs.

I recognise your scenarios and am sure it happens but my feeling is that is must surely be self-regulating. A really good band has nothing to fear and a really bad band will not last long. Yes, casual punters may walk into a pub if they hear live music and buy a pint, but they'll also soon leave if the band is no good. If enough people never come back then the pub will stop having bands - paid or not.

[/quote]
But the trouble is that the casual punter won’t come back. It all undermines the live music scene, making it less sustainable. A half way decent band will still do well locally but building up a following out of town these days is taking a lot more work.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397595226' post='2425581']


Again, I'm sure that's all correct but I suspect it's symptomatic of bigger things. The music business has changed immensely over recent decades and, as we've discussed many times, music is a much-devalued commodity these days. That's not to say that it's not important to people, more that they've become accustomed to not having to pay very much for it, while having more of it at their fingertips than they can actually listen to in their whole lifetime. PC recording technology and the internet has made it possible for bands to easily put out their music such that the world is now awash with music. Some might be crap but some is fantastic . . . but, hasn't that always been the way?
[/quote]
It is true that the (original) music scene has changed out of all recognition in the last twenty years – in some ways good but in many ways not so good! It is very difficult to make a living as a musician these days, even some of the people you may think of as reasonably successful are struggling!

In contrast, the pub circuit has remained pretty much recognisable as it was ten years ago, but has just gone into a decline as people deal with lower standards of living and getting into the habit of staying in on a Saturday night with a pack of cheap beer and a DVD...

Edited April 15, 2014 by peteb

[Dad3353]

Just a couple of remarks slightly off topic, but only slightly so...

There are few blacksmiths left in business. There are some, and very good they are too, but far, far fewer than bygone days. Those that were less commercially successful, or technically less good, or wrong connections have retired or changed occupation.
My aged neighbours, back when I still lived in Shepperton, remembered the days when cinemas came in. They would tell anecdotes about how the roller-rink community was decimated, as rink after rink closed down, to become a cinema. They also told anecdotes about the cinema industry suffering from lack of attendance a decade or so later, and cinema after cinema closed down, converted to Bingo halls. This in turn faded away, and the buildings turned to selling cut-price furniture, or lino.
What's all this about..? Simply to illustrate that the times change, for many reasons, and if one clings to the 'old ways', one had better be damned good. All of these out-of-fashion activities still have their 'niche' market, but it's very far from their heyday.
Anyone still go to a pub where a singsong is held every evening over a joanna, with a pint for the player on the top..? How odd; used to be all the rage, all over the country. No tears for all those (mostly amateur...) pub pianists, then..?
There used to be work playing the piano, or even a light orchestra, in the cinemas, now that I think of it. Shame about them thar 'talkies', eh..?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1397599813' post='2425633']
But the trouble is that the casual punter won’t come back.
[/quote]

How can you be sure? Doesn't 'casual' mean just that? They might be so casual that they don't bother at all. They might walk past a pub gig one week, then drop in on another next week, if they see a crap band they'll probably leave after a pint, if they're good they might still leave after a pint because they're 'casual' about music, not massive fans. If they see a good band, they might stay, but they might not if the footy or the F1 recap is on instead. They're just casual about it all. Pretty difficult to build a business (or a band following) out of casual punters. Maybe that's the problem - people becoming increasingly casual about music?


Dad has nailed it. Times change - always have, always will - and regulation won't stop it.

[peteb]

I think that we are going round in circles here.

There will always be a market for live music but it will be difficult for the pub rock scene (and the pub trade in general) until any improvement in the economy starts to trickle down to working people. And you certainly can’t legislate to stop bands who really should not be playing in public getting gigs if they are prepared to do so for nothing and naïve landlords are prepared to book them…

Edited April 15, 2014 by peteb

[JTUK]

Sure, some Landlords are their own worst enemy... as they don't know all the bands they book.
They may ask if the band has a following and of course, the answer will be yes...
otherwise that band has just blown out the gig.
We only do a few pubs and then we take care on choosing them. It took a bit of time
but mostly we were recommended by people who may have or hopefully had some sort
of musical credence with the venue. Once you get up and running, then these things follow on pretty quickly
and easily... but you still have to keep an eye on who is struggling. We tend to play one pub per town..and
only two in our own town...and then there are the few specials. This is the flip side of venues being able
to put on events ad hoc, as the summer will bring many garden parties in marquees. The fee for that will be
pub rate plus, so not likely to even hit mates rates. But if a special occasion, then it can work. This Easter is
chocker with pubs doing gigs. Ditto May bank holidays.

So, I actually think the music scene is quite vibrant ( round here ) but I don't think it helps that much if the scene is watered down.
Sure, you can back yourself and you'll get the gigs on your own merits, but I would think 9 gigs in a town
on a sat night might be OTT. However, if that helps bring more people into the music scene, then that is good.
I am just not convinced it does..

Anyway, this is banter and has a fascinating..to me.. insight, into what makes a band popular, but otherwise, I am not so bothered.

[flyfisher]

Out of interest, what constitutes 'a following' for a typical pub band? How many extra drinkers would make the landlord think that £250 for the band is worthwhile?

[JTUK]

Good question. I think typical pubs make north of £1.50 a pint.
A few figures I have gleaned...

Beer Barrel costs from £45-£60 a barrel in a free house, to a tied-in price of about £85-£115 a barrel
so a barrel can earn £230-ish....
So, for a LL to make his money back on the band...without his other considerable costs, he needs to sell around 100pints depending
on what he pays for the beer in the first place.
Pubs round here will pay £300 for a pub band...if that band is proven, and they will go to £350 for an event.
£200 seems the standard... maybe £250.

So the Landlord is expecting that band to bring in a minimum of 20 people, I'd say...plus his 30 odd regulars and you have a start of a good evening.

Edited April 16, 2014 by JTUK

[peteb]

JT's analysis above is about right but, as ever, he should remember that he lives in a pretty affluent part of the country. Decent pub gigs around here will pay £200 (smaller pubs may pay a little less)...

[JTUK]

Just to quantify a few things/figures.
We are working on about 80pints per barrel.
Beer is over £3.00 in virtually every pub..and certainly tied pubs so
on a music night, expect to pay £3.60 a pint for Doombar, for example.
( One or two free houses can seel at £2.50 on a band night as their buy-in is
£45-ish a barrel..!!! )
So, a barrel of beer at around £3.60 gets you £280 quid per barrel so they can net
off of £85 per Barrel, just shy of £200 'profit' for 80 pints.

So if a band only sells 100 pints including other drinks, then basically the LL is treading water
only. He then needs good nights to get ahead. This is probably why they book cheaper bands
from time to time and hope he gets away it. Of course, an expensive band is no garauntee
to get his money back.... and none of those bands will want to hand 'back' money for a duff night.

So... he has his master plan and bands have theirs.

[flyfisher]

Interesting figures, thanks.

I didn't realise that 20-ish people could make such a difference to a landlord (assuming they all buy 5 pints . . . which would be a very serious session for me!).

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1397637977' post='2425820']So the Landlord is expecting that band to bring in a minimum of 20 people, I'd say...plus his 30 odd regulars and you have a start of a good evening.[/quote]

I assume that's a constant average of 50 for the whole night then? That would rule out many small pubs being able to handle a crowd that size, once staff wages, band payment & profit are factored in.