LM2 + VT pedal to RH450?

[Mr.T]

I have been gigging with a LM2 and a VT pedal for the past few years.
As an ex longterm Trace SMX user I did not like the sound of the LM2 on its own, and always play with the VT pedal switched on.
I am happy with the sound that I have been getting, running the LM2 totally flat and using the VT to cut out some mids and add a touch of tubey warmth.

However, GAS has gotten the better of me and I recently bought a used RH450 as I liked the idea of the presets and built-in tuner.

Just wondering if anyone else has made the same switch.... And did it work for you?

[Lozz196]

I`ve read a fair few fellow Basschatters have done this, successfully too, am sure they`ll be along soon with their views/comments.

[Mr.T]

Well.... As nobody came along....
(Is the RH450 'Old Hat' already?).

I have done a couple of gigs with the RH450 now, so here are my initial thoughts:
I play in a female fronted soft rock and country(ish) kind of band consisting of Vocals, One Guitard, Drum-Hitter and myself.
My sound is warm, clear and full... Easily obtained with my LM2 and VT pedal set-up.

Gig 1)... A very live sounding tiled basement bar.
Our band Roadie/Soundman could not make the gig, so I had to guess at my sound to some extent.
I ran the RH fairly flat with no more than a couple of clicks on any of the 4 EQ controls (Up on the Bass and Treble, Down on the Mids) and just 2 clicks of TubeTone.
I thought the Bass sounded very rich and warm.
The amp certainly seems to have plenty on Headroom in the loudness department, although master volume control seems to be too sensitive from off to very loud.... Maybe I will try knocking back the Preset patch level?

Gig 2)..... Your average carpeted mid-sized pub.
I added one more click of Bass EQ and again was pleased with the sound.
I asked our Roadie after the gig how the RH compared with my LM2 VT and he said the RH lacked 'Warmth, Punch, and Presence'.
..... Sounds like I needed to turn it up a bit then?!!!! :-)

The RH seems to be quite a capable piece of kit and I like the idea of the 3 presets, as I intend to start using my fretless for a few numbers in the near future.
I also like the tuner.
However, I will not be selling my trusty LM2 or the amazing VT pedal which has been my saviour....... just yet.

[Prime_BASS]

Went from markbass to a RH750' didn't like it, so went back to the markbass.

[Mr.T]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1397459306' post='2423985']
Went from markbass to a RH750' didn't like it, so went back to the markbass.
[/quote]

Hi,
What did you not like about the RH...... and prefer about the Markbass?

[Musicman20]

I went from the Markbass LM3 to a Genz Streamliner 900. That was the 'warm/clear/tubey' side covered, but with better limiting and IMO, a better amp with better features and a great treble control.

I initially bought a Shuttle 9 when they came. I didn't like it straight away so I sent it back and took an RH450. I LOVED that amp. Something in the baked in EQ worked for me.

I upgraded to the RH750 and again, despite the fact people can't accept that it is capable of more volume than most similarly rated micro amps, I think the tone is fantastic, plus it will allow more treble sheen which is great.

This is just me, but now I wouldn't go back to Markbass. I think they really had a good grasp on things, and they should have just made a LM4 by now, and upgraded the F500. I'm not as interested in their new products.

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1397470448' post='2424130']
This is just me, but now I wouldn't go back to Markbass. I think they really had a good grasp on things, and they should have just made a LM4 by now, and upgraded the F500. I'm not as interested in their new products.
[/quote]

I went back to Markbass, buying a 2nd hand LM3 after briefly owning a Boogie Prodigy. I'm very happy with it too. However, I do find new products from Markbass uninspiring.

IME, in the cold light of day, once you take the vaguries of technique, pedals, strings, pickup selection, active electronics, other musicians notably guitarists, drummers and keys, different cabs, venue characteristics and the capablities of the FOH / PA operator. Many of the nuances often discussed in threads on amps can become so confused they become pointless.

Possibly to my own detriment. I tend to send a pre eq singal to the board and self monitor usually by boosting the mids so I can hear what I'm doing. Although I understand someone changing their rig and tinkering give me a few months and that itch will start again - lol.

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Mr.T' timestamp='1397465535' post='2424042']
Hi,
What did you not like about the RH...... and prefer about the Markbass?
[/quote]

I just didn't like how it handled itself at volume. I often felt it became a bit of a loud mush, and despite plating EQ, never really changed character.
Fantastic feature set however, if they made a preamp with the same features then I'd be more than interested.
Once all the info came out on actual rated watts and it's power amp stuff it became clear why I didn't like it.

[Musicman20]

No one has yet proved that there isn't a 750 watt module in there...its just held back and effectively turn the amp up to full tilt and it won't break a sweat.

[molan]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1397484039' post='2424339']
No one has yet proved that there isn't a 750 watt module in there...its just held back and effectively turn the amp up to full tilt and it won't break a sweat.
[/quote]

Why would TC limit the RH450 to just 235W if it could go to 750?

I can understand holding a 750 back to something like 450-500 but going as low as 235 would seem a strang decision?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1397494229' post='2424478']
Why would TC limit the RH450 to just 235W if it could go to 750?

I can understand holding a 750 back to something like 450-500 but going as low as 235 would seem a strang decision?
[/quote]

It is, I agree, but there is more to it than just the wattage, without a doubt. The 750 is louder, had much more give and girth, and can outperform a lot of amps with similar 700+ watt ratings IMO.

A strange way to go about it.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Musicman20

[Mr.T]

Just an observation, having read some threads on the RH450 on an American site......

The RH seemed to get rave reviews when it was first released.
Then the Wattage debate started, and for many the love affair was over!

Is this a perception thing going on?

I have 3 more gigs this weekend, so will put the RH through its' paces.... And see how it performs!

[Prime_BASS]

Some people highly rate them and will defend them.

I didn't like it at volume and that's that really. Perception is a weird thing.
Some say the 750 version was louder than other simarlily rated amps, I thought it sounded just as loud as the Eden WTX 260 I had.

If you like it you like it, and to be honest the wattage thing had nothing to do with it for me. It is how it handles itself at loud volume.

Lots of people seemed to like the shuttle 3.0 and 6.0 until it came about it had a HPF built in to protect its small combo variants, and it put people off them. Yet many people go ahead and buy the Thumpinator pedal which does the same thing.

[xgsjx]

The wattage thing does show that watts have not a lot to do with how many decibels you can make.

[ern500evo]

Forget the wattage issue, if the 450 is loud enough for you does it make any difference if it's 450w or 236w? I've had a RH450 and I now use a RH750, I changed because I sometimes want a clanky sound with some real top end sizzle, and as I don't really use a pick the 750 gets that sound easier, I also got it for a great price which helped! I'd say just bear with it and let YOUR ears decide. BC is an amazing place to get advice from some incredibly knowledgable people, but ultimately you have to decide if you like what you hear from it. As an example, look at how many people around here hate Ashdown amps stating they're unreliable and lacking oomph, I've got an original ABM500evo RC which has only ever been serviced once yet has never ever let me down, and I've never had a volume issue with it, no matter what setting or band situation I've used it in.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mr.T' timestamp='1397514326' post='2424793']
Just an observation, having read some threads on the RH450 on an American site......

The RH seemed to get rave reviews when it was first released.
Then the Wattage debate started, and for many the love affair was over!

Is this a perception thing going on?
[/quote]

That happened on here, to an extent. But yet, they were getting extremely popular on TB, then the magazine tested one, and TC told them, quite openly, how it works.

The thing is, power modules aren't really expensive, so it isn't a case of 'we made an amp low wattage and fooled you' because instead of making their power management feature, they could have saved money and just stuck a power module in and used normal limiting.

At the time, I had a LM3, and the RH450, being their '450' watt amp, could outperform the LM3. The LM3 would clip easily at 8 ohms and at 12/1 on the master, you have run out of steam.

Push the LM3, and it will clip...nastily. Push the RH450 and it will just keep going, effortlessly.

Different tones as well, completely.

For a modern comparison, we have the Aguilar TH500. That also caps the treble a little, but has a huge low end (some say too much) that does need taming. A lot of people are using HPF's with the Aguilar so as to not have their speakers pistoning away!

The TH500 will also just keep pushing, but differently.

No one, as far as I know, has rated the TH500. The LM3, buy the same magazine, didn't hit 500W.

It's all well and good trusting magazine specs, but they are simply not that big a deal. It's nice to think people have the time to put an amp through testing, but it seems the testing methods might not be 'real life' testing.

It seems both Genz and now the Baer amps (from reading TB) have asked to have their amps retested.

Trust your ears, try cranking the gain and master on amps, and see what it does. If you like the tone and its loud enough for your needs, great

[Mr.T]

I agree that 'watts are not everything'.
I used a Trace smx300 for many years... It never ran out of steam!

If I can get the sound I want from the RH450, then I will consider it 'Job done', and sod the watts!

[Mr.T]

3 more gigs with the RH450....

I am still not sure whether I prefer the LM2 + VT or the RH450.
The bottom end of the RH sounds immense, although it seems to be a very easy amp to over E.Q.
None of the set-ups that I have programmed at home have worked in a gig situation, they just get lost in the mix and I end up running the amp pretty much 'Flat' in order to hear myself.

[xgsjx]

Rehearsal is the best time to get the sound you want (unless you take the band home with you).
Most find in a band, it requires a different sound. Teach your band mates this (especially guitarists & keys players).

[Mr.T]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1398406218' post='2433713']
Rehearsal is the best time to get the sound you want (unless you take the band home with you).
Most find in a band, it requires a different sound. Teach your band mates this (especially guitarists & keys players).
[/quote]

Yes, I agree, I just went for a ballpark set-up at home that was close to my LM2 + VT sound.
..... It changed massively at gigging volume.
Way to much bottom end.

In 30 years of playing Bass, I have only ever met one Guitard that was willing to learn anything!!!
....and yet to meet a DrumHitter that understands the concept of getting a good 'band' sound.
They seem to think that their sound (and volume level) is fixed and the Bass and Vocals should be adjusted to suit.

[Mr.T]

I have about a dozen gigs Under my belt with the RH450 powering my 2 1x12 cabs.....

I am using the centre frequencies shifted to approx. 250/600/1200/2000
I am tending to use the 250 and 600 controls within 1 or 2 clicks of neutral, depending on the room, with the 1200 at around + 5 to 6 clicks and the 2000 at around + 3 to 4 clicks.
The Compression is set to just about kick in and the Tubetone is on 3 clicks.

This is a very different sounding amp to the LM2, but with a bit of coaxing to the higher frequencies it is giving me the warm deep sound I need with the clarity I want.

I have cut back on the preset levels so that I can run the Master around the 10 o'clock position to avoid to jump in output around the 9 o'clock area!

I am finding the mute and tuner an absolute godsend at gigs.... Tuning up has never been so quick and easy.

Oh.... And this amp is LOUD.... However many Watts it may be :-)

Pretty sure it is going to be 'A Keeper'.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Mr.T