Does everyone erm ....know their time signatures?

[toneknob]

I grew up in Genesis tribute bands, so odd time sigs were par for the course. In all that time though, and before/during/since learning material from Rush, Yes and now harder (some might say) jazz-fusion stuff, I've never come across "8/8" that wasn't notated as 4/4.

My favourites: the 13/8 instrumental of Genesis' Robbery Assault and Battery, the 9/8 of In That Quiet Earth, 7/8 in The Cinema Show, every odd time sig going in the Firth Of Fifth instrumental; 11/8 in Gates Of Delirium and Awaken, 13/8 in King Crimson's Starless

[Annoying Twit]

I've also never seen music notated in 8/8. It was only a few years ago that I found that 8/8 exists as a time signature. I think that we're so used to syncopated 4/4 beats, that anything that is 8/8 would be written as 4/4 with a high degree of syncopation. Strange however that 3/4 and 6/8 aren't confused in this way.

[Dad3353]

As with many things in music, time signatures are not an absolute; there are many examples of ambiguous compositions, especially in classical works. Modern 'pop' is a rather limited vision of the totality, and tends to be (in general...) somewhat simplistic. A deep understanding of some of the finer points is not required, nor useful in practise, but some knowledge of at least the basics is always a good thing. Being, at its roots, rather based on dance rhythm, obscure meters are rare. Anyone wishing to explore further will have a whole wide world to play in, however, as there is no real reason to limit time signatures to whole numbers, even. Wikipedia has a list of many strange timings, most of which will never be encountered in 'rock'; therein madness lies...

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396879069' post='2418260']
I've also never seen music notated in 8/8. It was only a few years ago that I found that 8/8 exists as a time signature. I think that we're so used to syncopated 4/4 beats, that anything that is 8/8 would be written as 4/4 with a high degree of syncopation. Strange however that 3/4 and 6/8 aren't confused in this way.
[/quote]

3/4 and 6/8 not so much, but how about 2/4 and 6/8? Things may have changed in the (many) years since I was learning GCSE Music, but my teachers always used to think it more important to learn to distinguish 2 from 6. I learnt to think of a typical 6/8 as a sort of "ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three" rhythm.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1396880611' post='2418290']
3/4 and 6/8 not so much, but how about 2/4 and 6/8? Things may have changed in the (many) years since I was learning GCSE Music, but my teachers always used to think it more important to learn to distinguish 2 from 6. I learnt to think of a typical 6/8 as a sort of "ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three" rhythm.
[/quote]

2/4 and 6/8 are relatively easy to distinguish as one is a simple time signature and the other is a compound time signature. 2/4 versus 4/4 is much more difficult to distinguish.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[Dad3353]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1396880611' post='2418290']...I learnt to think of a typical 6/8 as a sort of "ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three" rhythm.[/quote]

...which is exactly right.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Dad3353

[Lozz196]

Answer to the question, no. Can I play in time with a drummer when they`re playing other-than-4-by-4-timing, yes.

[EMG456]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396875785' post='2418207'] The two 8/8 examples I gave sound very different to me. I just made a drum machine track to demonstrate. [url="https://soundcloud.com/annoyingtwit/four-versus-eight"]https://soundcloud.c...ur-versus-eight[/url] There are twelve bars. First four bars of 4/4, then four bars of 8/8, then four bars of another 8/8 time signature. It sounds a bit more like 8/8 if a bassline is added, but I had to keep it mega-simple or I'd play 4/4 by default. [url="https://soundcloud.com/annoyingtwit/eightplusbass"]https://soundcloud.c...t/eightplusbass[/url] However, I will admit that it's easy to count 4/4 time against all of these examples, even though the 8/8 patterns were designed to be as 8/8 as I could make them (bass drum and snare on the beats, three beats per bar). I think this is something to do with my/our familiarity with 4/4, particularly syncopated, time signatures and relative unfamiliarity with 8/8 time signatures. It's easier to make something more obviously 8/8 with a pitched instrument such as a bass, or fingerstyle other guitars. We don't seem to have so much problem distinguishing 3/4 from 6/8, as both of those time signatures are commonly used. If we say that music is in 8/8 we are telling musicians that it isn't 4/4, but unlike (say) 12/8, we aren't telling them where the accents are. This could be shown by accents in musical notation. Or, it could be up the musician to guess where the strong beats are based on the time signature and the actual notes in the music. [/quote]

Thanks again - I now see what you mean although I'm sure that if you went into a session and were handed out the parts, these patterns would almost certainly be written in 4/4 - the notes, ties and rests would be identical in each instance, would they not? I would just have viewed that pattern as a syncopated 4/4 with an offbeat snare or a kind of pushed half- time.

That said, as instructed by dad3353, I went off to said Wikipedia and now my head hurts. 2 and a half over 4, anyone?

And I found Ravel's Piano Trio which is indeed written in 8/8 although I confess my reading is so dodgy that I can't get my head around the first bar!

Anyway - brilliant! Thanks everyone - I learnt something new today!

Cheers

Ed

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1396884602' post='2418370']
Thanks again - I now see what you mean although I'm sure that if you went into a session and were handed out the parts, these patterns would almost certainly be written in 4/4 - the notes, ties and rests would be identical in each instance, would they not? I would just have viewed that pattern as a syncopated 4/4 with an offbeat snare or a kind of pushed half- time.

That said, as instructed by dad3353, I went off to said Wikipedia and now my head hurts. 2 and a half over 4, anyone?

And I found Ravel's Piano Trio which is indeed written in 8/8 although I confess my reading is so dodgy that I can't get my head around the first bar!

Anyway - brilliant! Thanks everyone - I learnt something new today!

Cheers

Ed
[/quote]

I still need to work out why 2 1/2 over 4 is not 5/8. More for me to learn later.

Someone could notate the 8/8 music as 4/4, and the notes and ties would be in the same place. But, if we had, say, a bar full of 8th root notes, then in an 8/8 case written as 4/4, there would have to be indications of which are the strong beats or musicians would put emphasis on the wrong notes if there were no indications of emphasis. If I wrote the eighth notes in 8/8 time signature and then joined the 8th notes into two groups of three eighth notes, and one group of two, then this would be a more accurate description of what I intended and it would be much more likely that someone would play what I intended.

The music could be notated as 4/4, and someone could play it. But, I think that the 8/8 bassline and drums I did fit better with my intended "1 and a 2 and a 3 and" count than they do with "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and" which sounds to me out of sync. (Perhaps because I know what the count is meant to be). After all, you can count "1 and 2 and 3 and" against 6/8 and notate it in that way, and it will 'work'. But

Edited April 7, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[Dad3353]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1396884602' post='2418370']...as instructed by dad3353...[/quote]

???



If only I had such power..! Glad you found something interesting there, though.

Now get back to your practising.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Dad3353

[pete.young]

If you were looking for an example of an odd time signature, I'd say that 7/8 was a much better one than 8/8 . I've rarely come across 8/8 but 7/8 is relatively common and is always (in my experience) divided up into smaller groups. 5/4 (as in Take 5) is another classic example.

I've also seen scores where your 8/8 examples have been written as , say 2 bars of 3/8 followed by one bar of 2/8. I think 8/8 is a comparatively modern way of going about things, similar to the recent trend of not using a key signature and writing everything down as an accidental.

[Annoying Twit]

I've been looking at Wikipedia. Additive time signatures are a good idea because they make the structure of the beats obvious for odd/complex time signatures. E.g. (3 + 2 + 3) / 8. I think I'm going to use additive time signatures from now on.

The page doesn't explain that 2.5/ 4 time signature though. Just mentions it. Off to google further.

[seashell]

[quote name='pete.young' timestamp='1396889656' post='2418446']
If you were looking for an example of an odd time signature, I'd say that 7/8 was a much better one than 8/8 . I've rarely come across 8/8 but 7/8 is relatively common and is always (in my experience) divided up into smaller groups. 5/4 (as in Take 5) is another classic example.

I've also seen scores where your 8/8 examples have been written as , say 2 bars of 3/8 followed by one bar of 2/8. I think 8/8 is a comparatively modern way of going about things, similar to the recent trend of not using a key signature and writing everything down as an accidental.
[/quote]

'Times Like These' by the Foo Fighters starts out in 7/8. Our band was thinking of covering it, but one of the things that put us off was the 7/8 introduction. I don't think we can all count up to 7 together!

[EMG456]

The thing about odd time signatures is that they're usually there for some reason like for example they fit the tune or the notes in a riff. If you can work out the reason and get your mindset going for that groove, it will soon start to feel quite natural and you won't need to be counting it out in your head.

Just remembering back in the day before the CD, Genesis released an album ( can't remember the name of it just now) and the first track on side one was in 5/4. Apparently a huge percentage of buyers took it straight back to the record shops because they thought it was jumping.

[Tom Brookes Music]

I won't get drawn on the vast majority of this thread. There's an awful lot of incorrect and very confusing stuff though!

Anyway, i saw 13/4 mentioned. Without hearing it it's hard to say for sure but I tend to find stuff like that will be 2 bars of 4/4 and 1 bar of 5/4. I once saw a piece written in 15/8....ridiculous and a nightmare to read given that it was actually phrased as a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 7/8.

[xgsjx]

Time signatures such as 6+6+5/8 can be interpreted as 17/4 if you struggle with reading it.

I love this song...

http://youtu.be/br2s0xJyFEM

[Musky]

Following the comment about 3/3, I thought I'd have a google as I thought that theoretically there's no reason not to have a note that's a third of a semibreve. What I wasn't expecting was to come across a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures#1.2F.E2.88.9A.CF.80.2F.E2.88.9A.E2.85.94"]wikipedia page[/url] with a [sup]1[/sup]/[sub]√π[/sub]/√⅔ time signature. And yes, that is a π symbol in there.

[Chrismanbass]

did a musical last week which contained a bar of 15/8 which was ...... fun

[nobodysprefect]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396864812' post='2418004']
Compound time signatures have beats divided into three. E.g.

6/8 = 1 and a 2 and a
9/8 = 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a

[/quote]

Wait, what? No.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc34Uj8wlmE[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU4jSuoDlNg[/media]

Just to point at two easy examples that are 9/8 and 9/4. Feeling 1-2-3 2-2-3 3-2-3 doesn't create the right feel to me.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='nobody's prefect' timestamp='1396909819' post='2418765']
Wait, what? No.

Just to point at two easy examples that are 9/8 and 9/4. Feeling 1-2-3 2-2-3 3-2-3 doesn't create the right feel to me.
[/quote]

Blue Rondo a 'la Turk isn't a simple rhythm. There's a description of the piece on wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Rondo_à_la_Turk According to that page, it starts with a repeating four measure pattern that is 2+2+2+3 for three measures, then one measure of 3+3+3. Then the piece goes into a straightforward 4/4 rhythm. I'm finding it quite hard to count the beats on the first section, and it doesn't appear to be a simple straightforward 9/8 time signature. Later on we get 4/4 alternating with 2+2+2+3 and more stuff going on. I don't understand why you label this an easy example.

The belly dance music sounds to be quite straightforward 9/4 to me, which would be counted "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and" as it's a simple time signature. That seems to fit. The sound quality isn't good, but the melodic phrases appear to indicate the starts of bars, and counting as mentioned seems to fit well.

Hence, I'm not quite sure what your point is. Could you please clarify?

[miles'tone]

I was taught that the second number in the time signature is the feel, the most predominant type of note being used. an 8th note feel or a quarter note feel for example. The first note being how many of them there are in a bar. It's simple that way.
Also, I don't agree with using "and a" to describe 8th notes. To me you would only count like that for 16th notes (1e and a 2e and a...etc.)

Regarding playing covers such as the Foo Fighters track seashell mentioned, just try and sing/hum along to the riff til you and everyone gets it. As long as you can get inside the groove and play it well it really doesn't matter if you can name the time signature or count it. Sometimes less thinking is best!

Edited April 7, 2014 by miles'tone

[nobodysprefect]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1396911137' post='2418777']
Blue Rondo a 'la Turk isn't a simple rhythm. There's a description of the piece on wiki [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Rondo_à_la_Turk"]http://en.wikipedia....Rondo_à_la_Turk[/url] According to that page, it starts with a repeating four measure pattern that is 2+2+2+3 for three measures, then one measure of 3+3+3. Then the piece goes into a straightforward 4/4 rhythm. I'm finding it quite hard to count the beats on the first section, and it doesn't appear to be a simple straightforward 9/8 time signature. Later on we get 4/4 alternating with 2+2+2+3 and more stuff going on. I don't understand why you label this an easy example.

The belly dance music sounds to be quite straightforward 9/4 to me, which would be counted "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and" as it's a simple time signature. That seems to fit. The sound quality isn't good, but the melodic phrases appear to indicate the starts of bars, and counting as mentioned seems to fit well.

Hence, I'm not quite sure what your point is. Could you please clarify?
[/quote]

Absolutely!

Blue Rondo was an example of music we'd write out in 9/8 but that has a different pulse. And the other one doesn't have a pulse that's made up of groups of three... So there's more to 9/2n time signatures than just the compound --> groups of three thing. Haven't played these two, tho.

A song I [i]have[/i] played, 'Birds of Fire' is in 18, but the bass part isn't really in groups of three for a lot of the piece... So I think that part of the explanation needs a bit more fleshing out and room for variety.

To summarize: your post stated that 9/2n time signatures were counted (and thus presumably felt) in groups of three, which is not the case for one of the best known jazz tunes that's in 9 or for Birds of Fire, which is numerically just 2(9/2n) but isn't a simple 3 3 3 3 3 3 feel. I felt your explanation left out important pieces of music - in fact, I don't think I ever heard or read a piece that was 3 3 3 in school, while some teachers did use Blue Rondo as a teaching piece. Thus the reply. Hope the point was clearer this time around. ESL here, so please pardon the stilted and unEnglish sentence structures.

[nobodysprefect]

[quote name='miles'tone' timestamp='1396912911' post='2418796']
I was taught that the second number in the time signature is the feel, the most predominant type of note being used. an 8th note feel or a quarter note feel for example. The first note being how many of them there are in a bar. It's simple that way.
[/quote]

Aye... But how does this theory hold with tango, funk and son all being written predominantly in 4/4? Very different feels apart from 'play it on one and --- no, wait, you don't play it on one in a ton of latin music.

All the ToP scores I saw were written in 4/4 or 3/4 - didn't see many of those, granted.

[miles'tone]

[quote name='nobody's prefect' timestamp='1396915060' post='2418808']


Aye... But how does this theory hold with tango, funk and son all being written predominantly in 4/4? Very different feels apart from 'play it on one and --- no, wait, you don't play it on one in a ton of latin music.

All the ToP scores I saw were written in 4/4 or 3/4 - didn't see many of those, granted.
[/quote]

Well, it's all written out in the intricacies within the music. Yes in syncopation I guess in some cases. It also helps if you know which style of music you're going to be playing before you try reading it.

I had my education about 20 years ago so maybe methods and ways of thinking about it have changed now.
I'm all for keeping it simple and I do in my own way and get by ok, but I'm not a professional musician who's out there at reading gigs every week.

I do like playing in funny time signatures for fun still though

Edited April 8, 2014 by miles'tone

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='nobody's prefect' timestamp='1396914811' post='2418807']
Absolutely!

Blue Rondo was an example of music we'd write out in 9/8 but that has a different pulse. And the other one doesn't have a pulse that's made up of groups of three... So there's more to 9/2n time signatures than just the compound --> groups of three thing. Haven't played these two, tho.

A song I [i]have[/i] played, 'Birds of Fire' is in 18, but the bass part isn't really in groups of three for a lot of the piece... So I think that part of the explanation needs a bit more fleshing out and room for variety.

To summarize: your post stated that 9/2n time signatures were counted (and thus presumably felt) in groups of three, which is not the case for one of the best known jazz tunes that's in 9 or for Birds of Fire, which is numerically just 2(9/2n) but isn't a simple 3 3 3 3 3 3 feel. I felt your explanation left out important pieces of music - in fact, I don't think I ever heard or read a piece that was 3 3 3 in school, while some teachers did use Blue Rondo as a teaching piece. Thus the reply. Hope the point was clearer this time around. ESL here, so please pardon the stilted and unEnglish sentence structures.
[/quote]

Only compound time signatures are counted in groups of three. Hence, 9/8 would be counted in groups of three. I don't think I said anything anywhere that said that all 9/2n time signatures are counted in groups of three. I did mention 9/8, but only as an example of a compound time signature, 9/4 is a simple time signature counted as groups of 2, and the 2 + 2 + 2 + 3 / 8 bars of Blue Rondo would be 18/16 if expressed as a non-additive time signature, and counted as per the additive time signature. Interesting that 8notes.com says that all time signatures with a 9 are counted as compound time, but this clearly isn't the case. [url="http://www.8notes.com/school/theory/simple_and_compound_meter.asp"]http://www.8notes.co...pound_meter.asp[/url] musictheory.net says exactly the same thing, but with exactly the same text. So, someone has copied someone (perhaps a common source).

I've reviewed such terms as polyrhythm, polymeter, irrational rhythm, and cross-meter, but haven't found something that would describe the situation where two parts are counting (e.g.) 9 quavers in a bar as different groups.

I note Mile'stone's objection to using 'and a' to count divisions. I'm having a look around at counting systems, and note that even from wiki it's quite complicated. E.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_(music) The system I've been using is there, except that it uses 'ah' instead of 'a', and mostly (but not completely) '&' instead of 'and'. So, in that system we would have:

3/4 = 1 & 2 & 3 &
6/8 = 1 & ah 2 & ah
2+2+3/8 = 1 & 2 & 3 & ah

but there are other counting systems.

I do like the idea of counting triplets with 'po let'. E.g. an irrational meter with a single beat of triplets might be counted:

4/4 (irrational meter) = 1 & 2 po let 3 & 4 &

Edited April 8, 2014 by Annoying Twit