15w Valve Amp... Loud Enough?!

[timmchale2009]

Having never had anything less than 30w valve before I am curious to find out if 15w valve is loud enough for serious live performance?! I know a lot of big venues will mic up so not an issue but from a smaller point of view will it stand up to a kit, bass etc?!

[Beer of the Bass]

I would say yes in many cases, but it depends on what speakers you're using, how loud your band is and what sort of sound you're going for. I use a 15 watt valve combo with an efficient Eminence Copperhead 10", and I have only played two gigs where I felt it was not enough. Both of those had the drums miked, minimal or no monitors and at one the guitar amp was unmiked. In a miked up situation with a decent PA or a smaller room where the drums are unmiked it's more than adequate, and in fact I've often been asked to turn down.
I like a bright, sparkly sound that's fairly light on the low end, and I'm quite happy if it breaks up a little. If you need to be squeaky clean or have chunky bass, you'll want to go larger.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Beer of the Bass

[JapanAxe]

I have been gigging a 15W valve amp (Matchless Lightning Reverb 1x12) without PA support for the last 2 years or so. However, it does have 3 important features that make this feasible:[list=1]
[*]Matchless remove some of the doping from the speaker (Celestion Vintage 30) to make it more responsive;
[*]The cab is almost wide enough to be a 2x12; and
[*]The cab is open-backed, so you get a good spread of sound.
[/list]

[Pinball]

Hi, I use my teeny Fender Blues Junior lll 15w. I find it fine for small gigs and mic it up for larger ones. Never had any complaints

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Pinball' timestamp='1397069036' post='2420395']
Hi, I use my teeny Fender Blues Junior lll 15w. I find it fine for small gigs and mic it up for larger ones. Never had any complaints
[/quote]

Yep, I have seen this done in a 10-piece soul band, amp was till plenty loud enough!

[timmchale2009]

So just let me clarify...

If I'm after a really clean sound I may be needing to look at something a little higher in wattage?!

But if I don't mind a little bit of breaking up at higher volumes then a 15w may be the way forward?!

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='timmchale2009' timestamp='1397071045' post='2420422']
So just let me clarify...

If I'm after a really clean sound I may be needing to look at something a little higher in wattage?!

But if I don't mind a little bit of breaking up at higher volumes then a 15w may be the way forward?!
[/quote]

15w is fine. I used the Blues Jr for country (think clean tones) & never had a problem. It was a brilliant amp. I don't think mine ever went past 4 on the dial & in fact my guitarist uses it now as I've kept it going since returning to bass.

[Pinball]

[quote name='BurritoBass' timestamp='1397072590' post='2420452']
15w is fine. I used the Blues Jr for country (think clean tones) & never had a problem. It was a brilliant amp. I don't think mine ever went past 4 on the dial & in fact my guitarist uses it now as I've kept it going since returning to bass.
[/quote]

Same here, I have never needed to turn it right up yet. I play mainly clean with a tele and occasional effects pedals. My previous combo was a Peavy Bandit 112, which was something like 80w. Nice amp but I haven't noticed much difference since changing to the blues Junior. It's not an amp for everyone though. Try before you buy.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Pinball

[KiOgon]

Another 15 watt combo user here http://peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/0/116598/ plenty of power for most every hall, clean or gritty, brilliant all valve amp.

[HowieBass]

On the subject of small valve amps, and not wishing to hijack the thread, but I keep wondering if I should move on my WEM Westminster 15 that I've owned from new from back in the late 70s. It's not been used in years and it's in pretty much perfect condition and I have the WEM branded vinyl cover for it as well but I notice a buzzing hum from about half volume and upwards (so that's from about 4 and above; yes, it only goes up to 8 on all the controls) and this is even when nothing's plugged into it. Needs new smoothing capacitors maybe?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='timmchale2009' timestamp='1397071045' post='2420422']
If I'm after a really clean sound I may be needing to look at something a little higher in wattage?!
[/quote]

Not necessarily. A 15w Princeton Reverb (SF/BF) gets quite grunty early on. The Princeton non-reverb is also 15w but stays pretty clean up to 8 or 9.

Pair a silverface NR with an efficient after-market speaker like the Copperhead and you get both loud and clean. Then you stick a decent dirt-box in front of it and Bob's your oyster.

[Bassnut62]

I reckon the deciding factor re size of amp is often more about the impact and feel you want and the space you are in, than the volume you want from the amp.

Generally speaking I don't notice a huge difference in volume between the three main 1x12 valve combos I use, a 15w Fender Blues Junior, a 35/65w MusicMan and a 50-70w Burman 501Pro.
The difference is more about how much or little break-up I want in my sound and how big (not loud) I want that sound to feel.
I like the basic sound of the amp to be on the clean side of breaking up, so that I can easily push it into breaking up, either with boost/drive pedals or by lifting the volume control on the guitar from about 7.5 to 10.0 or both.
I find this is usually the sweet spot for the amp, where you get that lovely warmth and valve bounce (or light compression) in the clean sound.

For me, how much headroom you have left in the amp tends to determine how much thump or impact (not volume) you get in the sound.
Higher wattage amps can sound big and clean at the same time and can have more volume left if needed without breaking up; whereas for smaller amps to sound big sometimes means it will be breaking up before you've brought it up to the volume you need. Of course this is only a problem if you like your basic tone to be clean.

I think the other factor to consider is the size of the space (and to some extent the band) you are playing in.
If it's a small space with lots of you crammed together on stage (or in a rehearsal room), the small 15w amp should be fine; whereas a bigger less cramped space is probably better and more fun for a bigger 35-50w amp.

If I was playing out doors, I would probably want closer to 100w or more of valve power, just so the sound is bigger and the notes seem fatter and maybe don't get blown away by the air so easily......[i](Are bigger notes heavier in air?!)[/i]
For any of you that followed a recent thread about vintage amps v modern amps I posted in the bass amp section, this is partly why I decided to keep my trusty old Fender Bassman 135 head.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Bassnut62

[Kirky]

I've just built an ampmaker PP18 (18 watt WEM/Marshall clode) and its plenty loud enough and very clean. It will (I suspect) get dirty if I turn it up even louder but I haven't had the chance yet. It feels louder than my 30W Silverface Vibrolux Reverb.

[Lozz196]

Blues Junior, Orange Terror, all low-wattage and plenty loud. Re clean/breakup, well that`s more than likely going to be more determined by the way the amp is designed to work. Some will probably grind earlier on than others. Have to say, if I were after clean-sounds I`d start by looking at a Blues Junior.

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1397381182' post='2423301']
Have to say, if I were after clean-sounds I`d start by looking at a Blues Junior.
[/quote]

+1 re the Blues Junior.....but they tend to break up a bit too easily when stock. A bit of care in chosing which one you get and then some light modification will tame it to be a very good low watt clean amp.
Here's what I did to max the clean tones in mine:[list=1]
[*]Chose a MkII Tweed BJr
[*]swapped speaker for a £50 Eminence Cannabis Rex; I tried loads of others, including £150 Jensen P12N, but the Cannabis Rex was easily best; it tamed the ice pick treble and was as warm as an alnico speaker but could cope with high gain too - there is one Bjr that comes with a Cannabis Rex in it already; but I think it is v pricy version of the amp and not worth the cost.
[*]swap all the valves from nasty stock GT or Fender tubes, for Gold Lions in the power stage and JJs in the preamp stage. For the preamp, go for a 12AY7 in 1st hole and a 12AT7 in the phase inverter (3rd hole); it doesn't really matter much what goes in 2nd hole; but I have 5751 in there.
[*]have an adjustable bias fitted to amp, as it runs tubed very hot with fixed bias. if you run it less hot, the tubes will last longer and give a bit less distortion
[*]get the Bill M mid-tone-stack mod done; it's cheap to do and removes the tendency of the amp to sound a bit boxy - this mod allows you to reduce the mid to nil; which you cannot do if still stock....even at nil, the amp is set to still give some mid.
[/list]

Edited April 14, 2014 by Bassnut62

[Ancient Mariner]

For small amps, speakers will make the biggest difference to volume and clean/dirty characteristics. To wring maximum volume out you will need something like a celestion G12H, Blue, V30, Eminence Red Fang, Cannabis Rex or Ragin Cajun. They are all very efficient, though each with different characteristics that you should match to the kind of tones you need. The G12H will give a big, tight bass and sharp-edged treble, while the blue will sound like tearing up a shirt. The Redfang - supposed to be a blue copy - will give a softer edge to the treble, while for me, the Cannabis rex is a bit dull with a nasty upper-mids spike.

At the other end of the spectrum, the Jensen C & P series speakers are very inefficient, which is handy if you want to really crank the amp, but you may run out of headroom too soon (I had a Jensen P10R for a while in a 20W SE amp I built, and max volume was woeful, though it could produce some good tones).

As Bassnut says, changing valves around also helps, and if you want a bit more clean headroom then something like a 12AT7 or 12AY7 in the first position will tame fizziness. Good output tubes help too, but they make less difference to the fizz and affect more the richness of the tone. Swapping valve types around can also be good if you run single-ended, and it's well worth experimenting with EL34s, 5881/6L6s, 6CA7s, KT77s and even 6550s. My fave was a 6CA7, which combined the best of both EL34 and 6L6 valves, but a 6550 run single ended could give a HUGE bass tone for a small amp..

[Bassman Rich]

[quote name='Kirky' timestamp='1397219237' post='2421902']
I've just built an ampmaker PP18 (18 watt WEM/Marshall clode) and its plenty loud enough and very clean. It will (I suspect) get dirty if I turn it up even louder but I haven't had the chance yet. It feels louder than my 30W Silverface Vibrolux Reverb.
[/quote]
Hey there Kirky, I just built a 5 watt ampmaker (the plexi type one, se5a) and I'm in Harrogate too. It sounds great, but probably only for really small gigs without being miked up. Bloody loud through a vintage 30 in the house though.

[Kirky]

Cool. I'm thinking of doing the 4W Champion clone next, but first I might do the mod on the PP18 that allows you to switch between 2, 9 and 18 Watts. I'm taking it to rehearsal tonight for the guitarist to use. - it'll be the first time it will have been used in anger.

[Bassman Rich]

Pm'd. Let us know how you get on, keen to hear about the pp18.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Kirky' timestamp='1397219237' post='2421902']
I've just built an ampmaker PP18 (18 watt WEM/Marshall clode) and its plenty loud enough and very clean. It will (I suspect) get dirty if I turn it up even louder but I haven't had the chance yet. It feels louder than my 30W Silverface Vibrolux Reverb.
[/quote]
I would be keen to see how many lessons could be applied to the Ibanez TSA5 5 combo - anecdotally I understand its based on a champ circuit but am waiting for the distributors to send me a schem. I figure for 95 Euro, its hard to go wrong.

[Kirky]

Rich, the PP18 sounded great at rehearsal, although the guitarist only used it for a few minutes, preferring his own amp (a Fender ...um...can't remember). It broke up at around 12 o'clock. Nice sounds but once the break-up started, the volume wasn't quite so loud. We didn't try it with any pedals, just straight in. The clean sound at bedroom levels is fantastic.

[Bassman Rich]

Sounds kinda like my se5a did at a band thing last year, I have the vvr master volume mod fitted, but I like the sound best with it (master) up full, and the gain at 2 o clock,so its the output single el84 is pushed into distortion. The mate of mine who has the eaqually good champ clone one uses it for small gigs, but he has the (imho) holy grail of amps, a Lazy J 20 watt. It is simply stunnimg, even better than the previous 'best amp in the world to my ears' the 65 amps tupelo, again a stunning quality amp, and both far superior (again, just my ears and prejudice) to things such as my Fender Hot Rod deluxe, Fender 75, Ashdown artisan 15, Dr Z Maz 8 among others we tried out. Those lazy J things are too good to be described by my limited vocabulary, but I know 2 mates who thought a 9 month waiting list, £600 quid up front and a final price of over £1500 was worth it for the 5e3 fender deluxe derived 1x12 20 ish watt combo.

[Oopsdabassist]

Only on a bass forum, could you find guitarists asking is 15w too much, no chance of that on a guitarists forum I fancy!

[randythoades]

I also use a 15w amp (Fender Super champ X2) with Eminence Copperhead. We don't play that loud (rockabilly) and I have never found it lacking and have rarely turned it up past half way. Not sure it would compete on a heavy rock gig though. I used to do a heavy rock / classic rock band using a Peavey Classic 30w valve amp. Perfect for rehearsals and although it was fine volume wise for a full on gig, it didn't have enough clean(ish) headroom for me at ha volume so I went to the floor effects into PA route.

[Ancient Mariner]

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1398840092' post='2438030']
Only on a bass forum, could you find guitarists asking is 15w too much, no chance of that on a guitarists forum I fancy!
[/quote]

Which only goes to show that you are a bass player!

For many guitar players the power rating of an amp isn't about volume at all, but getting the right tone.