15w Valve Amp... Loud Enough?!

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='Ancient Mariner' timestamp='1398861251' post='2438357']
Which only goes to show that you are a bass player!

For many guitar players the power rating of an amp isn't about volume at all, but getting the right tone.
[/quote]

Speaking a guitar-fumbling bass player, I can vouch for what you say here. I was rehearsing with our Disco band last night using my 15w Blues Jr and while it's plenty loud enough (I was running it at only about 3 on the Master and 6 on the Gain) it just sounds too thin for my liking. That could be the fact that the cabinet is so small and tight; but I think it is more about the power rating and head-room of the amp. The Blues Jr just doesn't have the same presence, authority and depth of my two bigger combos, a 35/65w MusicMan RD112 and a 50w Burman 501Pro. Guess I'll have to hump the bigger ones to rehearsals now..........

PS.....Interestingly, when I have previously rehearsed with either of the two bigger combos, I have found myself using almost exactly the same Master/Gain settings as above with the Blues Jr; which probably underlines that a big part of tone is all about the headroom in your guitar amp.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Bassnut62

[Ancient Mariner]

It might also be about speaker design, but is just as likely to be about how the output stages handle bass frequencies. I've found smaller amps around, say, 5watts or so simply can't deliver the energy needed to generate a bit of a thump from a speaker capable of delivering it. Get up to the 12-18 watt level and with the right speaker the thump & rich mids can be there, but they tend to drop away as volume goes up and saturation increases. It's only really 50watts + (and some would say 200watts+) that things really fatten out, even if you don't use the volume.

As for the BJ you're using, does it have a Jensen-type speaker (eminence 105?)? That might be a big part of the thin tone, and I've found them particularly lacking in bass response. Last year I migrated from a 45 watt amp using a 10" Ragin Cajun (really efficient and LOUD) to a 30 watt amp using a softer and less efficient 12" speaker in order to get a 'bigger' sound instead of cutting through. Generally I like a softer-toned speaker, and all my favourites are well played in.

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='Ancient Mariner' timestamp='1399035864' post='2440290']
It might also be about speaker design, but is just as likely to be about how the output stages handle bass frequencies. I've found smaller amps around, say, 5watts or so simply can't deliver the energy needed to generate a bit of a thump from a speaker capable of delivering it. Get up to the 12-18 watt level and with the right speaker the thump & rich mids can be there, but they tend to drop away as volume goes up and saturation increases. It's only really 50watts + (and some would say 200watts+) that things really fatten out, even if you don't use the volume.

As for the BJ you're using, does it have a Jensen-type speaker (eminence 105?)? That might be a big part of the thin tone, and I've found them particularly lacking in bass response. Last year I migrated from a 45 watt amp using a 10" Ragin Cajun (really efficient and LOUD) to a 30 watt amp using a softer and less efficient 12" speaker in order to get a 'bigger' sound instead of cutting through. Generally I like a softer-toned speaker, and all my favourites are well played in.
[/quote]

Yes thump and rich mids is where it's at for me too...mind you a thump that wears a velvet glove!
Re speaker; yes been down that road and tried numerous speakers including ceramic and alnico Jensens (NOS my arse!!).
In the end I settled on the relatively cheap Eminence Cannibis Rex; which is a great softer-toned speaker that can also handle as much gain as you could want without flubbing out.
I think the truth is small 15w valve amps sound best when cranked up a fair bit; but they can't really do big clean tones there, though they're fine if you want a cranked blues tone....so my BJr is mostly a compromise that I can live with and save my back.

PS.
I have however done good tube and mid tone control tweaks that make it stay as clean as it can at higher volume and give what velvety thump it can; but ironically once I've finally got some good clean thump out of it, it becomes too loud for rehearsals!.....Makes me think I could have saved myself a few hundreds and stuck with the bigger amps in the first place!

Edited May 2, 2014 by Bassnut62

[Roger2611]

[quote name='Bassnut62' timestamp='1399020603' post='2439987']
Speaking a guitar-fumbling bass player, I can vouch for what you say here. I was rehearsing with our Disco band last night using my 15w Blues Jr and while it's plenty loud enough (I was running it at only about 3 on the Master and 6 on the Gain) it just sounds too thin for my liking. That could be the fact that the cabinet is so small and tight; but I think it is more about the power rating and head-room of the amp. The Blues Jr just doesn't have the same presence, authority and depth of my two bigger combos, a 35/65w MusicMan RD112 and a 50w Burman 501Pro. Guess I'll have to hump the bigger ones to rehearsals now..........


[/quote]

I used a CS Princeton reverb on stage which sounded fantastic and is only a 15W amp, does the Blues Junior have a 10" speaker? That may be the reason it is lacking authority and presence.....I had my Princeton converted to a 12" Vintage 30 it made the world of difference

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1399140627' post='2441487']


I used a CS Princeton reverb on stage which sounded fantastic and is only a 15W amp, does the Blues Junior have a 10" speaker? That may be the reason it is lacking authority and presence.....I had my Princeton converted to a 12" Vintage 30 it made the world of difference
[/quote]

Yes 12" in a BJr, but I think the cabinet maybe smaller than a Princeton, which maybe restricts resonance in some way?
I am going to try switching first preamp tube from a super low gain 12AY7 to a higher gain 5751, as I think this may give a little more fatness and authority at the lower volume that I am having to use at rehearsal.

[Bassnut62]

[quote name='Bassnut62' timestamp='1399157157' post='2441693']
I am going to try switching first preamp tube from a super low gain 12AY7 to a higher gain 5751, as I think this may give a little more fatness and authority at the lower volume that I am having to use at rehearsal.
[/quote]

I've switched the first preamp tube for one with more gain and it does sound a bit warmer and more full at lower volumes now.

Cleaned up, the BJr is a great amp cranked to above 7 on Gain and Master; but that volume was just too loud for rehearsals and it was sounding a bit thin with Master around 2-3.
I reckon it will be better with more Gain on tap at lower volumes; plus I've dialled a bit more Mid in to help with cutting through mix at rehearsals.
Hopefully that'll make it do the clean job better at low volumes, without sounding too thin.

Now it will have too much gain at gig volumes for my needs!
Note to self.....Switch to low gain first preamp tube if gigging with this amp and needing good clean tone.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Bassnut62

[Ancient Mariner]

The gain probably won't affect tone, but the valve itself might. Some kind of EQ pedal could also help give a bit more girth.

[Bassnut62]

Yes, it's not so much a tone issue as a fatness issue, i.e. trying to find a clean sweet spot of gain and master combination, just before break up, but at lower volume.....even though it's only a 15w amp!

Edited May 5, 2014 by Bassnut62