Revisit R**********r sales on BC?

[UglyDog]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1397324702' post='2422875']
I have no interest in buying or selling Rickenbackers, real or fake, so I am not bothered either way, but I wonder why they seem to be able to trade Ricks with impunity over on Talkbass?
[/quote]
Maybe John Hall has never used bully boy tactics against TB or sent them cease-and-desist notices with dire warnings of law suits?

[Dingus]

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1397325818' post='2422893']
Maybe John Hall has never used bully boy tactics against TB or sent them cease-and-desist notices with dire warnings of law suits?
[/quote]

Or maybe he did and they were better equipped to respond.

[UglyDog]

What would you have done then?

[Dingus]

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1397329588' post='2422937']
What would you have done then?
[/quote]

Well that's not really a fair question because I doubt Ped and Kiwi have the same resources available to them as I have at my disposal.

If what you really mean to ask is whether I think Ped and Kiwi have done the right thing under the circumstances then all I can really say is that I am not at all surprised that they have chosen to react in the way that they have.

[Number6]

Out of all the members on this forum is there not a Solicitor that can advise?

(I'm new here and have no intention of reading back through all the threads).

[Thunderbird]

Why not just start a thread something like Ricky sales where people can say bass for sale PM me if interested or something along those kind of lines where nothing is said in public so to speak?

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1397325215' post='2422884']
John Hall stands to benefit a great deal by stifling the secondhand market in his basses. It can only serve to help the sales of new ones.
[/quote]

From my point of view I would love one, but will not buy new as that man and his company are not having any of my money. I just wonder how many other people are similarly put off by the actions of the company. Probably not enough for them to notice.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Lozz196

[UglyDog]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1397330885' post='2422955']
Well that's not really a fair question because I doubt Ped and Kiwi have the same resources available to them as I have at my disposal.
[/quote]
Nicely dodged.

[quote]
If what you really mean to ask is whether I think Ped and Kiwi have done the right thing under the circumstances...
[/quote]
Not really, no. What I meant to ask was, 'what would you have done then?'

Edited April 12, 2014 by UglyDog

[Dingus]

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1397334370' post='2423006']
Nicely dodged.


Not really, no. What I meant to ask was, 'what would you have done then?'
[/quote]

What I'm telling you is when you ask "what would you have done then ? " is that it's a moot point, because I am not Ped or Kiwi, and I have very different motivations and ambitions. How I behave is not a prescription for others any more than how others behave is a prescription for me

. If you are trying to get me to say they have done the only thing they could under the circumstances then that depends on your assessment of what those collective circumstances actually are and what their real priorities are. You and I can only guess at that, but if they are like most people, it's fair to assume they want the maximum possible personal benefit for the least possible effort and financial investment . That's certainly what I want from my own businesses , and I wouldn't expect whoever owns Basschat to be any different.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1397335699' post='2423028']
What I'm telling you is when you ask "what would you have done then ? " is that it's a moot point, because I am not Ped or Kiwi, and I have very different motivations and ambitions. How I behave is not a prescription for others any more than how others behave is a prescription for me

. If you are trying to get me to say they have done the only thing they could under the circumstances then that depends on your assessment of what those collective circumstances actually are and what their real priorities are. You and I can only guess at that, but if they are like most people, it's fair to assume they want the maximum possible personal benefit for the least possible effort and financial investment . That's certainly what I want from my own businesses , and I wouldn't expect whoever owns Basschat to be any different.
[/quote] or lowest risk. Allow Rickenbacker adverts and there's a chance a few fakes will be advertised, and theres a chance that Joe Hall brings a lawsuit that is unaffordable to defend against... but it's not even just the risk of a lawsuit against Basschat per say, but the threat of legal action against whoever hosts basschat - and I bet given some kind of well worded solicitors paper a web host would rather turn off a site like this than take the risk... and then where would we all be? Finnbass possibly?

I don't understand the problem to be honest - Basschat have done what they seem fit to protect themselves, and Rickenbacker owners still have ebay/preloved/gumtree/facebook/TB etc to sell stuff if they want too. Even folk with Rickenfakers can find places to sell fairly easily

[RhysP]

[quote name='Thunderbird' timestamp='1397331188' post='2422961']
Why not just start a thread something like Ricky sales where people can say bass for sale PM me if interested or something along those kind of lines where nothing is said in public so to speak?
[/quote]

Because that would undoubtably lead to a lot of sales fee dodging by dishonest cheapskates.
I cannot believe that this particular well decomposed horse has been dug up for yet another flogging.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1397336566' post='2423038']
I don't understand the problem to be honest - Basschat have done what they seem fit to protect themselves, and Rickenbacker owners still have ebay/preloved/gumtree/facebook/TB etc to sell stuff if they want too. Even folk with Rickenfakers can find places to sell fairly easily
[/quote]

I don't understand the problem either. It's easy for people with zero risk to suggest that others take a risk. The reality is that we pay nothing for all the services that BC offers and are therefore effectively guests here. As such, abiding by the house rules is the least we can do - anything else is just plain bad manners. Their website, their rules.

[Musicman20]

I don't train in the area of law thats involved (although the basics are available and understandable to most). It's much more complex due to this being the internet, the liability of the owners of the website for the actions of its members, and the fact it invokes an international flavour.

I can understand why the owners didn't want to carry on with the threats. As much as we are a fairly litigious bunch in the UK, I don't think we tend to dive in and sue at the first sign of a legal dispute like some other countries.

Ric will sell Ric's no matter what. I still want one.

I'm quite interested to find out what happened with the many high end Fender copies and the cases that stemmed from that. Obviously, they didn't win, but it does seem crazy if you think about it; Leo Fender invented the Fender P and J, yet other companies can do what they want with it (to an extent) and Fender just have to try and compete.

Saying all that, if I was a regular Ric seller, I would be annoyed I'd paid the subscription on BC.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Musicman20

[skankdelvar]

* Any initiative which saves representatives of this forum from having to down in the trenches with the exceptionally unpleasant and remorseless Mr John Hall can only be applauded. They did not go looking for him. He came looking for them.

Whether he has the law on his side or that one might regret the absence of Rics from the BC marketplace is beside the point.

* There are plenty of places where one can find Rics for sale. Many remarked at the time of the consultation that any ban would have little effect on the wider marketplace in Rics.

* I doubt many forums would have thrown this kind of issue open to its membership as did BassChat. After [s]42[/s] 31 grinding pages of debate (an exercise sneeringly mocked by Mr Hall on the Rick Resource) the management elected to pursue a course of action which they felt was in the best interests of the forum.

It is reasonable that the debate should be re-opened from time to time; on this occasion the management has stated their current position which is that they envisage no change to the policy.

They just don't want to go there. Can't we just leave it at that?

Edited April 14, 2014 by skankdelvar

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1397338773' post='2423059']
I don't train in the area of law thats involved (although the basics are available and understandable to most). It's much more complex due to this being the internet, the liability of the owners of the website for the actions of its members, and the fact it invokes an international flavour.

I can understand why the owners didn't want to carry on with the threats. As much as we are a fairly litigious bunch in the UK, I don't think we tend to dive in and sue at the first sign of a legal dispute like some other countries.

Ric will sell Ric's no matter what. I still want one.

I'm quite interested to find out what happened with the many high end Fender copies and the cases that stemmed from that. Obviously, they didn't win, but it does seem crazy if you think about it; Leo Fender invented the Fender P and J, yet other companies can do what they want with it (to an extent) and Fender just have to try and compete.

Saying all that, if I was a regular Ric seller, I would be annoyed I'd paid the subscription on BC.
[/quote] From what I understand....

So Rickenbacker have from the start protected their copyright and US trademarks on their designs and shapes. Their upholding of this trademark in the US is dependent on them able to prove that they have taken action to stop copies.
Hense they have a legal necessity to pester Basschat - even though under EU law basschat is doing nothing wrong, under US trademark law Rickenbacker have to be seen to crack down on copies.

Right. So Fender didn't and hadn't. So when they went to try and trademark their instruments, and because they hadn't taken action to actively stop the copies he big japanese guitar makers were successfully able to argue that the design were, and had become generic. Except the headstock which was successfully argued as a trademark which is why you stop seeing fender copies with the fender headstock shape post the early 80's.

[Billy Apple]

I wear a few hats in internet-land, BC Mod, Ric owner and member of the Ric Resource. There is something that has been forgotten here, there is no 100% Rickenbacker ban on Basschat. You can post pictures of your Ric, discuss wiring, walnut wood finishing, tail lift, truss rods, in fact anything you fancy.

What is also forgotten is the Rickenbacker-free market place has been driven by the RIC corporation, not BC. And given that Ric aficionados on the RR site discuss at length whether a 4001 is real or a fake or not, the only prudent action to take is the action that will result in the cessation of hostilities from the RIC corporation.

TBH, if you want our marketplace to include Rics, then the best course of action would to be to petition John Hall.

Until then there will be no further debate on the inclusion of Rics in our marketplace, and anything else is just sh1t-stirring

[geofio]

Bc i would say is one of the safest places to buy anything from Basses, and other audio equipment, i can say i have had nothing but superb results buying equipment here and there is a trust which cannot be found anywhere else, i just wish ric's would be included. why should John Hall decide what is for sale on Bass chat. because in reality that's what's happened here.

[leschirons]

I'm not a Rickenbacker fan in any way, shape, or form however, here's a suggestion.

You could start a thread entitled the Chatter's Ric Appreciation Post, all list your instruments and personal e-mail addresses and then simply send out a mass e-mail if you have an instrument to sell or are looking to buy one. That way it does not involve BC in any way but still affords you the security and comfort of dealing with trusted buyers and sellers who share a common interest.

[Bassassin]

If the issue here is that somebody might inadvertantly advertise a Faker, believing it to be genuine, and as a result BC might be on the recieving end of Hall's wrath, then what exactly would be the problem with verifying the authenticity of the instrument before allowing the listing to go live? There were/are absolutely no Rickenbacker copies which are indistinguishable from the real thing, spotting the differences is very straightforward.

If it's true that secondhand sales are a thorn in Hall's side, I'd derive a tiny measure of [i]schadenfreude[/i] from exerting a little pressure on that thorn.

Jon.

[RhysP]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1397343817' post='2423112']
I'm not a Rickenbacker fan in any way, shape, or form however, here's a suggestion.

You could start a thread entitled the Chatter's Ric Appreciation Post, all list your instruments and personal e-mail addresses and then simply send out a mass e-mail if you have an instrument to sell or are looking to buy one. That way it does not involve BC in any way but still affords you the security and comfort of dealing with trusted buyers and sellers who share a common interest.
[/quote]

Of course it would involve BC - you'd still be using the forum to facilitate it.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='geofio' timestamp='1397341010' post='2423088']
why should John Hall decide what is for sale on Bass chat. because in reality that's what's happened here.
[/quote]

Because John Hall has time, money, expensive lawyers, and a seemingly litigious nature. Basschat has none of the tools required to fight that.

I can't believe we're discussing this *again*. Personally I think asking basschat and the mods/admins to run the risk of legal action by Rickenbacker just so a few people can buy and sell some basses is extremely rude. Are any of the people who want to overturn the ban willing to stump up all legal fees and take responsibility for defending the site, or do you just expect the mods to do it for you?

[Bassassin]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1397344913' post='2423122']
Because John Hall has time, money, expensive lawyers, and a seemingly litigious nature. Basschat has none of the tools required to fight that.
[/quote]
Yes we do. We have members who can identify a Rickenbacker copy, blindfolded and with one arm tied behind their back.

J.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1397340072' post='2423077']
Until then there will be no further debate on the inclusion of Rics in our marketplace, and anything else is just sh1t-stirring
[/quote]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1397345127' post='2423126']
Charming!
[/quote]

I'm glad you think so. What is less than charming is this whole charade has been brought on by John Hall. Are any members here hounding RIC about this? I seriously doubt it.

Tell you what, if any members are that bothered about it, then set up your own bass players forum, start advertising Rics, and see how far you get.

[alyctes]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1397344913' post='2423122']
Because John Hall has time, money, expensive lawyers, and a seemingly litigious nature. Basschat has none of the tools required to fight that.

I can't believe we're discussing this *again*. Personally I think asking basschat and the mods/admins to run the risk of legal action by Rickenbacker just so a few people can buy and sell some basses is extremely rude. Are any of the people who want to overturn the ban willing to stump up all legal fees and take responsibility for defending the site, or do you just expect the mods to do it for you?
[/quote]

This.

[leschirons]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1397344384' post='2423114']


Of course it would involve BC - you'd still be using the forum to facilitate it.
[/quote]

My apologies, I missed out the winking emoticon after the suggested name for the thread.