Revisit R**********r sales on BC?

[simon1964]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1397458333' post='2423978']
Edit: I'm not sure that they are well informed over on RickResource. Here they are all saying that Rockinbetter guitars are made by Tokai, without a single dissenting opinion that I can see. [url="http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=389091"]http://www.rickresou...p?f=44&t=389091[/url]
[/quote]

To be fair, that thread is from 5 years ago, when there did seem to be a general view that Rockinbetters were made by Tokai.

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1397458333' post='2423978']
I've seen people posting about their very poor experiences with Rickenbacker basses. When I see these posts, I wonder if there is anybody who is annoyed enough at John Hall that they would go out and deliberately give them bad reviews as I don't believe the instruments and/or QC are as bad as occasionally claimed.
[/quote]

The complaints about Rickenbacker QC existed long before all this kicked off, the only thing about them that isn't wildly variable is the price.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1397466003' post='2424053']
I think we need a new section ... Lawchat.

Like Hiram, I detest JH's bullying tactics and I would LOVE to call his bluff. Last time around, I suggested having a Basschat whipround to raise a fighting fund to pay the lawyers.

Like Bassassin, I know a fair bit about RIC and their finances - they're (relatively) tiny, and highly unlikely to be able to cross the Atlantic with a high-powered legal team.

[/quote]

I would also love to call his bluff, but an additional problem is that the first step in any legal action could well be a strongly worded letter to Basschat's ISP---and ISP's aren't exactly known for fact checking before closing sites down. A letter from a relatively well known American company claiming copyright infringement, along with the mention that "eBay comply with our takedown requests" and suddenly the site disappears. The admins would probably be eventually able to get the site back online, but at what cost in terms of time, effort, and legal fees---not to mention the effect on the forum of it disappearing for some length of time.

Even if Basschat were 100% legally in the right (and I suspect we would be based on what I understand of EU law) Ric can still cause massive headaches. Its just not worth it.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1397468121' post='2424085']
I would also love to call his bluff, but an additional problem is that the first step in any legal action could well be a strongly worded letter to Basschat's ISP---and ISP's aren't exactly known for fact checking before closing sites down. A letter from a relatively well known American company claiming copyright infringement, along with the mention that "eBay comply with our takedown requests" and suddenly the site disappears. The admins would probably be eventually able to get the site back online, but at what cost in terms of time, effort, and legal fees---not to mention the effect on the forum of it disappearing for some length of time.

Even if Basschat were 100% legally in the right (and I suspect we would be based on what I understand of EU law) Ric can still cause massive headaches. Its just not worth it.
[/quote]

This.

I find it incredible that at least 20 years after the internet went mainstream the people who use it are still largely ignorant of how it works. It's not just the ISP, it's the company who provide the hosting, the domain name registration, the physical server space the actual forum software itself, and the company providing the spam/DDS/virus protection for the site.

All of those points are vulnerable to Mr Hall doing little more than he is at the moment and all are required to keeping the site up and running. By targeting each of these companies in turn it would be very easy to keep Basschat down for a considerably long time to the point where all the users drift away to alternative places that are up and running.

If you really want to sell Rickenbackers and Rickenfakers it appears to be possible on TalkBass so why not do it there instead?

[UglyDog]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1397344913' post='2423122']
I can't believe we're discussing this *again*. Personally I think asking basschat and the mods/admins to run the risk of legal action by Rickenbacker just so a few people can buy and sell some basses is extremely rude. Are any of the people who want to overturn the ban willing to stump up all legal fees and take responsibility for defending the site, or do you just expect the mods to do it for you?
[/quote]

[UglyDog]

[quote name='geofio' timestamp='1397417609' post='2423749']
if you are a Bass/Guitar manufacturer, i would say you just have to expect copies of your instruments it is part of the business and rather moaning about copies i would be more concerned about improving the product i have out on the market at the moment .
[/quote]
Tell this to the Hall person. Let us know how you get on. Given his attitude so far, I suspect his response would be along the lines of 'sex and travel'.

Edited April 14, 2014 by UglyDog

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1397470695' post='2424133']
Tell this to the Hall person. Let us know how you get on. Given his attitude so far, I suspect his response would be along the lines of 'sex and travel'.
[/quote]

"Sex and Travel" would be a good name for a band. Or maybe for a Dick Venom and the Terrortones album.

[ambient]

No ones answered my question yet, how come Talkbass allows sales of Rickenbacker basses ?

And how do they vet (if they even do) whether a bass is the genuine article ?

[Dingus]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1397474144' post='2424164']
No ones answered my question yet, how come Talkbass allows sales of Rickenbacker basses ?

And how do they vet (if they even do) whether a bass is the genuine article ?
[/quote]

I pointed that out, too.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1397474144' post='2424164']
No ones answered my question yet, how come Talkbass allows sales of Rickenbacker basses ?

And how do they vet (if they even do) whether a bass is the genuine article ?
[/quote]

An interesting question, but wouldn't it be better to ask it on Talkbass?

[throwoff]

Talkbass is a different beast in many ways, if you want information on their inside decision making you would be best asking there.

For all we know they have mods operating full time in their FS section, they might have a paper agreement with Ric, who knows.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1397476625' post='2424220']
How does Andy Baxter manage to sell so many? He's UK based.
[/quote]

He doesn't appear to sell or have sold any Rickenfakers through his site from what I can see.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1397474144' post='2424164']
No ones answered my question yet, how come Talkbass allows sales of Rickenbacker basses ?

And how do they vet (if they even do) whether a bass is the genuine article ?
[/quote]

1 - because it is perfectly legal.

2 - copies of Rickenbacker basses are all, every last one, very different to real ones and are therefore very easy to identify.

I could add 3 - TB is evidently not afraid of empty, inane and groundless threats the way we plainly are.

Good grief, the way I'm going on, you'd think I actually gave a sh!t! I really don't.

J.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Bassassin' timestamp='1397477899' post='2424238']
1 - because it is perfectly legal.

I could add 3 - TB is evidently not afraid of empty, inane and groundless threats the way we plainly are.

[/quote]

Even if you are 100% in the right defending legal action is expensive, time consuming, and stressful. It has become a sad fact of the modern world that---even if they are wrong---companies can tie up the little guys in legal knots. Thats the way it is, and unless our legal system changes thats the way its going to remain.

Sure, basschat [i]could[/i] call Rickenbacker's bluff, but what would be the point? The mods and admins would risk massive hassle, stress, expense, and even risk losing the whole site, and in return for "victory" a few people would get to trade a few basses.

Sometimes its worth making a stance against "injustices" but sometimes the stakes are so unimportant that its just not worth it.

[UglyDog]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1397478703' post='2424250']
Sure, basschat [i]could[/i] call Rickenbacker's bluff, but what would be the point? The mods and admins would risk massive hassle, stress, expense, and even risk losing the whole site, and in return for "victory" a few people would get to trade a few basses.
[/quote]
+1 x10[sup]12[/sup].

[Bassassin]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1397478703' post='2424250']

Sometimes its worth making a stance against "injustices" but sometimes the stakes are so unimportant that its just not worth it.
[/quote]

Broadly speaking I'm 100% in agreement about this part, and for that reason I'm out of this thread unless I have anything factual that's relevant to contribute. It's really not that important in the grand scheme of things that have grand schemes.

As you were.

J.

[simon1964]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1397476625' post='2424220']
How does Andy Baxter manage to sell so many? He's UK based.
[/quote]

Because he's selling real (secondhand) Rickenbackers. Contrary to what some people seem to be assuming, John Hall has not made any threats regarding the sale of genuine secondhand Rickenbackers. The threat is in relation to copies.

The reason the site owners have banned the sale of real Rickenbackers is because of a perceived risk that they will end up inadvertantly listing a faker masquerading as a real Ric. Presumably Andy Baxter is prepared to take that risk.

Edited April 14, 2014 by simon1964

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1397479562' post='2424263']
This is what annoys me.
I like Andy Baxter's site. There are some nice basses on there with detailed photos and decriptions. He's UK based and he is able to sell any Rickenbacker he likes. It's deemed OK because he only sells genuine Rickenbacker shaped product. By that argument etc etc and round the circle we go again!
[/quote]

Yes, but Andy Baxter presumably (literally) handles each instrument personally and knows exactly what he is selling. Selling basses is what he does.

That is not the case at Basschat. The mods don't have the time or the ability to inspect every instrument for sale, they're not all experts, and the profits from selling basses go to private individuals, not back to basschat.

Yes, the mods probably [i]could[/i], maybe, have a system where real Ricks were OK. Except it would be a lot of hassle for almost literally no reward as far as the site is concerned. A few people get to trade some basses, the site makes a couple of pounds a time. In return, the admins and mods have to police the for sale forum and run the risk of a faker slipping through the net and causing them even more trouble.

[b]Its just not worth the effort. [/b]

[karlfer]

But the sale of real Rick's 2nd hand doesn't need THE CURRENT MODS. I have little doubt a "real" expert and a faker expert would volunteer to do it.
That's the nature of most folk on this site.

[Sercet]

[quote name='Johngh' timestamp='1397424149' post='2423855']
...Gumtree and cretins offering you £300 under what you have it listed for, like they did when I sold my 4003.
[/quote]

That happens here too, though I wouldn't call them cretins - just people offering what they think the bass is worth.

[EssentialTension]

I don't understand why all those who are so unhappy with the Basschat position on this matter don't set up their own website for the sale of supposed Rickenbackers. They could run it as they see fit with no reference to Ped, Kiwi, the ISP etc., and then deal with John Hall themselves. Sorted, and with everybody happy.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1397480528' post='2424285']
But the sale of real Rick's 2nd hand doesn't need THE CURRENT MODS. I have little doubt a "real" expert and a faker expert would volunteer to do it.
That's the nature of most folk on this site.
[/quote]

It boils down to this:

Risk to the site: massive
Reward to the site: naff all

The mods have taken a perfectly sensible decision. I can't believe they're *still* being berated for it.

[geofio]

I have sold plenty of Rickenbacker's on BC and every single buyer was chuffed with their purchase most folks on here and are genuine sellers/buyers, fake rics are easy to identify, and there are plenty of ric players on here who would soon point out a faker so i don't think it is an issue, the simple solution is if you suspect a bass is fake remove it, end of problem. you just don't allow fake rics to be advertised in the first place solves the problem here. And if the odd one slips through it would soon be spotted. Guys like myself always look at ric,s for sale anyway whether buying or not. i don't see the problem.

Edited April 14, 2014 by geofio

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1397480528' post='2424285']I have little doubt a "real" expert and a faker expert would volunteer to do it.
That's the nature of most folk on this site.[/quote]

Would those same volunteers also put it in writing, witnessed and legal that they would be fully liable to BC for any losses, damage and costs involved if one of them made a mistake in his diagnosis of real or fake which led to either legal action from JH or a shut down of the site?

I can't believe that there are still BCers gnawing on this bone when it should be obvious what the issue is and have done with it.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Big_Stu

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1397483843' post='2424336']Would those same volunteers also put it in writing, witnessed and legal that they would be fully liable to BC for any losses, damage and costs involved if one of them made a mistake in his diagnosis of real or fake which led to either legal action from JH or a shut down of the site.[/quote]

[quote name='geofio' timestamp='1397483643' post='2424333']i don't see the problem.[/quote]

Well? Would you?