The BS of Guitar Companies

[mcarp555]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1397522474' post='2424849']
As someone that has worked in industry for many years an upcharge is about as friendly as it gets, they do need to switch the jigs to make them which takes time away from far easier to sell right handed instruments being made, there is also an amount that needs to be added simply for the length of time said instrument is likely to sit in a warehouse opposed to a righty when it comes to bulk manufacturers. I am a lefty but having worked for guitar companies for yonks I completely 'get it' when it comes to left handers not being made, when you check stock reports and sales numbers the money just isn't there for most companies to bother, sad for us as players sure but this is a business with firms who need to make money.
[/quote]

This is a quote from another post that I'd like to discuss in depth. As it might turn out to be a lively subject, I thought it would be better to break it out into its own thread.

To cut to the chase, my opinion is that this is complete and utter BS. It's all part of the lie that many companies use to justify their anti-left bias. Part of this bias stems from the idea that left-handers are a marginal market, and therefore it's easy enough to dismiss us. While it's true that the economy and tight markets, increased competition, etc. all make the guitar biz a cutthroat one, I would like to point out that guitar manufacturers exist for one reason: to make instruments. If you're going to commit to the idea of making musical instruments, then that would entail the concept of making them for both right- and left-handers. It's not like left-handed people appeared in 1955 and Gibson was caught unawares. We've always been here. So the idea of making RH and LH guitars/basses should not be news. Instead, LH models are seen as irrelevant, like changing the specs on pots or wiring or cheaper wood you can cover with paint. If Fender changes the source of their 'included' straps from Korea to China or Indonesia in order to save a few cents per unit, no one cares. Dropping X number of LH instruments next year elicits (they hope) the same response.

In many cases, what happens is that the idea that "We don't have to make LH instruments" becomes a self-fulling prophesy, and one that's repeated over and over until it has the ring of truth about it. People take it as an axiom that there's no money in LH gear, and it's difficult to do, and all the other horses**t, without really knowing if it's true or not. And thus it becomes easier to not bother, or not ask.

As for jigs, reprogramming the machines, etc., that's all part of doing business. Doesn't all this need done if you move from making say, Precisions one day to Jazzes the next? Does it cost money to make left handed instruments? Sure it does. But it does for right handed instruments as well. Whatever you manufacture, you have to spend the money. I can't take crying about the cost of jigs or reprogramming CNC machines when I see abominations like this:



Was this [i]really[/i] cheaper to make than a left-hand bass?

Besides, the problem of crying about cost for LH instruments could probably be solved very easily: make the rightys pay for it.

When a guitar or bass is priced out at the factory level, don't break out the cost of a small number of LH versions separately. Add it in and adjust the MSRP accordingly. If you need to raise the list price of a new bass by £10-20 to cover a small (maybe 2-3%) of LH copies, fine. I don't mind if the larger market pays to allow the smaller market more access.

And as for instruments sitting around in warehouses for extended times, perhaps they could try making something different. We've all seen the black instrument gathering dust in our local music stores. Why do they keep making the same model, in the same colour, year after year, then complain when nobody buys them? For years with Fender (again), it's been that you can't get a Jazz with a maple neck. The two models they make every year are always rosewood. Would it kill them to make maple? Would it really divert precious resources away from things like the item above? You make one or two depressingly humdrum models year in and year out. They don't sell of course, so you can then point to your sales reports and justify not doing anything to improve the market.

For some companies, their solution is to upcharge. It's an unfair tax upon being left-handed, and even so, you still can't get any model you want. Most places only allow for certain models to be "upcharged". What other industry can get away with doing things like this?

So the bottom line is, it does take money to make money. Guitar manufacturers should have always considered doing a certain percentage of ALL their models in a left-hand version. If I have money and want to buy a particular guitar or bass, I should be able to do so. If not, they are discriminating against me (or people like me). Some people don't like that ugly word, "discrimination", but that's exactly what it is. Many companies would like to just make righty instruments all day and not have to deal with people like "us". We didn't just drop out of the sky yesterday, however. So they come up with one excuse after another to justify their ability to discriminate against "us". You and me.

So what can we do about it? Don't pay for an upcharge, for one thing. Support left-hand friendly companies. The biggest thing is to contact the manufacturers and complain. I've had the marketing manager of Hofner send me a very abusive letter when I wanted to know why a company who's single biggest endorsee is left-handed only features five LH models in their entire catalog (minus that famous bass). When I bought my Gaskell T-bass, I wrote to Gibson and sent them a photo of the bass and told them that was well over a grand of my money they weren't getting. They are not mind-readers. If we want more left-hand instruments, we need to contact them and let them know we're out here, with plenty of money.

As I've said on several forums, if they can't be bothered to make guitars and basses for people to purchase, they should give it up and make toasters instead.

[ped]

It's true. You'd have to set up a lot of things differently to make a left handed bass in a production line that makes RH instruments. It's less difficult for a smaller volume maker as things aren't so automated.

No BS about it - just a cost that for most, is dead money.

If BC was a factory and we had to pay for each forum's activity, which I suppose we kind of do via bandwidth and so on, it wouldn't be economical to have a LH forum, for example, if it only ever contained about 1% of the total population but cost us 5% of the budget to run. However, some companies, like Warwick, believe it's worth the 'loss' to gain customers and a following.

Companies like Hofner, Gibson etc - it's a nice idea to think they're in it for fun and because they love making instruments, but they're in it to make profit and that's it.

Call it discrimination if you like, but you could say that about anything - LH or RH drive cars, for example.

ped

[mcarp555]

No, I wouldn't say that about cars, since so much of the roadway is set up to accommodate one side or the other; so that's not a comparable analogy.

My point is that even if more is involved in making LH instruments, [i]that's an inherent part of the business of making instruments.[/i] The last time I looked, it's not the "Gibson Right-handed Guitar Corp." or "Fender - We make guitars for 96% of the available market!"

As I've stated, it should be easy enough to pad the cost of right-handed instruments by a small amount to more than make up the difference in production costs required to make LH instruments. It should be a no-brainer - "Hmm, I"m going to start my own guitar/bass company. That means I'll have to make right and left-handed instruments in some ratio. But if I want to [u]sell[/u] guitars, [b]that's what I have to do[/b]."

The idea that they don't [i]have[/i] to make LH instruments is due more to inertia than anything else. "We never had to before, so we're not going to now". Once we didn't have to have handicapped ramps and parking spaces, or parental leave for men, or equal pay for women. Now we do. And guess what - that can be expensive. But the costs can be absorbed or made up in other ways. Why did those things change? Because it was discrimination, and it was fueled by inertia "We never had handicapped parking before". But that didn't make it right.

Now I'm not comparing the needs of handicapped people or underpaid women, etc. in the same way as buying a bass. But the basic principles are exactly the same. We as left-handed players are discriminated against, not because of economic malarkey, but simply because we can be, and most of the people who make the instruments don't care and don't want to change. How many people bother to write to a guitar company and say, "Hey, just to let you know, I'm not buying any of your stuff because the two LH models you make are crap, and you can't be bothered to make more. So kiss my money goodbye!". What would happen if 1,000 people did that? 10,000? If enough people wanted it and made their feelings known, the 'economic' reasons would vanish like so much smoke and mirrors. So you'll forgive me if I don't go for the same old soap story.

There are certainly more choices available to us today than in decades past. And in the future there will be even more. Not because Hofner & Gibson are 'nice guys', but because they finally woke up to the real economic reasons to do the correct thing. But we may have to complain until we're blue in the face, then complain some more.

[ped]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397582954' post='2425415']
No, I wouldn't say that about cars, since so much of the roadway is set up to accommodate one side or the other; so that's not a comparable analogy.

My point is that even if more is involved in making LH instruments, [i]that's an inherent part of the business of making instruments.[/i] The last time I looked, it's not the "Gibson Right-handed Guitar Corp." or "Fender - We make guitars for 96% of the available market!"

As I've stated, it should be easy enough to pad the cost of right-handed instruments by a small amount to more than make up the difference in production costs required to make LH instruments. It should be a no-brainer - "Hmm, I"m going to start my own guitar/bass company. That means I'll have to make right and left-handed instruments in some ratio. But if I want to [u]sell[/u] guitars, [b]that's what I have to do[/b]."

The idea that they don't [i]have[/i] to make LH instruments is due more to inertia than anything else. "We never had to before, so we're not going to now". Once we didn't have to have handicapped ramps and parking spaces, or parental leave for men, or equal pay for women. Now we do. And guess what - that can be expensive. But the costs can be absorbed or made up in other ways. Why did those things change? Because it was discrimination, and it was fueled by inertia "We never had handicapped parking before". But that didn't make it right.

Now I'm not comparing the needs of handicapped people or underpaid women, etc. in the same way as buying a bass. But the basic principles are exactly the same. We as left-handed players are discriminated against, not because of economic malarkey, but simply because we can be, and most of the people who make the instruments don't care and don't want to change. How many people bother to write to a guitar company and say, "Hey, just to let you know, I'm not buying any of your stuff because the two LH models you make are crap, and you can't be bothered to make more. So kiss my money goodbye!". What would happen if 1,000 people did that? 10,000? If enough people wanted it and made their feelings known, the 'economic' reasons would vanish like so much smoke and mirrors. So you'll forgive me if I don't go for the same old soap story.

There are certainly more choices available to us today than in decades past. And in the future there will be even more. Not because Hofner & Gibson are 'nice guys', but because they finally woke up to the real economic reasons to do the correct thing. But we may have to complain until we're blue in the face, then complain some more.
[/quote]

My analogy is OK as you can drive a RH or LH car anywhere - and even if you couldn't, that's the same as a RH player not being able to play a LH bass, and vice versa. I'd love a RH drive DS, but most good examples are LH. I'm going to write a letter as soon as I'm done here! Your analogy RE handicapped parking is worse!

Charging RH customers more to satisfy a minority of LH players wouldn't be a good strategy for a business. However cold that sounds - it's not economical. Or fair to RH players.

I'm afraid you ARE being 'discriminated' against because of 'economic malarkey'. It's just that simple. Sorry.

Like I said, however - plenty of more 'hands on' builders won't charge extra for LH models, because they don't need to re-tool to make them in anything like the volume or speed or mechanised way as some of the larger companies.

Question - if you owned a company that made 100 basses a month which were sold to music chains and sales were pretty good, kicking along nicely, would you put six months profits into tooling up to make a LH bass, and sell five a month? I wouldn't. Although my numbers are made up, apparently the principle is the same for the big names.

[ped]

P.S you're lucky - what a good reason to buy a custom bass!

[skej21]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397555138' post='2425010']


This is a quote from another post that I'd like to discuss in depth. As it might turn out to be a lively subject, I thought it would be better to break it out into its own thread.

To cut to the chase, my opinion is that this is complete and utter BS. It's all part of the lie that many companies use to justify their anti-left bias. Part of this bias stems from the idea that left-handers are a marginal market, and therefore it's easy enough to dismiss us. While it's true that the economy and tight markets, increased competition, etc. all make the guitar biz a cutthroat one, I would like to point out that guitar manufacturers exist for one reason: to make instruments. If you're going to commit to the idea of making musical instruments, then that would entail the concept of making them for both right- and left-handers. It's not like left-handed people appeared in 1955 and Gibson was caught unawares. We've always been here. So the idea of making RH and LH guitars/basses should not be news. Instead, LH models are seen as irrelevant, like changing the specs on pots or wiring or cheaper wood you can cover with paint. If Fender changes the source of their 'included' straps from Korea to China or Indonesia in order to save a few cents per unit, no one cares. Dropping X number of LH instruments next year elicits (they hope) the same response.

In many cases, what happens is that the idea that "We don't have to make LH instruments" becomes a self-fulling prophesy, and one that's repeated over and over until it has the ring of truth about it. People take it as an axiom that there's no money in LH gear, and it's difficult to do, and all the other horses**t, without really knowing if it's true or not. And thus it becomes easier to not bother, or not ask.

As for jigs, reprogramming the machines, etc., that's all part of doing business. Doesn't all this need done if you move from making say, Precisions one day to Jazzes the next? Does it cost money to make left handed instruments? Sure it does. But it does for right handed instruments as well. Whatever you manufacture, you have to spend the money. I can't take crying about the cost of jigs or reprogramming CNC machines when I see abominations like this:



Was this [i]really[/i] cheaper to make than a left-hand bass?

Besides, the problem of crying about cost for LH instruments could probably be solved very easily: make the rightys pay for it.

When a guitar or bass is priced out at the factory level, don't break out the cost of a small number of LH versions separately. Add it in and adjust the MSRP accordingly. If you need to raise the list price of a new bass by £10-20 to cover a small (maybe 2-3%) of LH copies, fine. I don't mind if the larger market pays to allow the smaller market more access.

And as for instruments sitting around in warehouses for extended times, perhaps they could try making something different. We've all seen the black instrument gathering dust in our local music stores. Why do they keep making the same model, in the same colour, year after year, then complain when nobody buys them? For years with Fender (again), it's been that you can't get a Jazz with a maple neck. The two models they make every year are always rosewood. Would it kill them to make maple? Would it really divert precious resources away from things like the item above? You make one or two depressingly humdrum models year in and year out. They don't sell of course, so you can then point to your sales reports and justify not doing anything to improve the market.

For some companies, their solution is to upcharge. It's an unfair tax upon being left-handed, and even so, you still can't get any model you want. Most places only allow for certain models to be "upcharged". What other industry can get away with doing things like this?

So the bottom line is, it does take money to make money. Guitar manufacturers should have always considered doing a certain percentage of ALL their models in a left-hand version. If I have money and want to buy a particular guitar or bass, I should be able to do so. If not, they are discriminating against me (or people like me). Some people don't like that ugly word, "discrimination", but that's exactly what it is. Many companies would like to just make righty instruments all day and not have to deal with people like "us". We didn't just drop out of the sky yesterday, however. So they come up with one excuse after another to justify their ability to discriminate against "us". You and me.

So what can we do about it? Don't pay for an upcharge, for one thing. Support left-hand friendly companies. The biggest thing is to contact the manufacturers and complain. I've had the marketing manager of Hofner send me a very abusive letter when I wanted to know why a company who's single biggest endorsee is left-handed only features five LH models in their entire catalog (minus that famous bass). When I bought my Gaskell T-bass, I wrote to Gibson and sent them a photo of the bass and told them that was well over a grand of my money they weren't getting. They are not mind-readers. If we want more left-hand instruments, we need to contact them and let them know we're out here, with plenty of money.

As I've said on several forums, if they can't be bothered to make guitars and basses for people to purchase, they should give it up and make toasters instead.
[/quote]

At the end of the day, there are increased costs for leftie instruments that come off production lines. Secondly, left-handed players are a much smaller percentage of the market (mainly due to lots of lefties learning to play right-handed). This inevitably gives bigger companies less money from left-handed players which in turn makes them want to waste less of their time, marketing, money etc on providing for the lefties because it's not really worth the return.

In an ideal world we'd all be able to choose from the same stuff at the same price but unfortunately, that's not the reality. It's the same reason that the bass section of your local store is usually hugely outweighed by guitars. These businesses know where they make their money and exploit it.

[Silvia Bluejay]

I agree with Ped and, as I said on the other thread, Throwoff. Let's try thinking about it in different terms. If left-handed people comprise, say, 10% of the population and of the market for left-handed guitar/bass/etc., but half of all lefties learn to play the instrument right-handed, that leaves only 5% of possible buyers of lefty instruments. That's a tiny number that any company can not just afford to ignore, but even afford to annoy and be hated by. It won't make any difference to them in hard money terms.
There's no way out of it. Hopefully, with time, the number of lefties who learn to play instruments left-handed will slowly increase and the market will slowly expand. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

[mcarp555]

The market will [u]only[/u] expand when they know we're out here. How will they know? We have to [i]let[/i] them know. Economic disparity is not something we have to put up with. Only if we allow it to go on will it continue. I hate to see people make excuses for guitar companies. I honestly don't care about their problems. If they cannot make equipment for everyone, they're probably in the wrong business. As I've said, it's not like left-handed people suddenly appeared out of nowhere. If they can't be bothered, let 'em go out of business. Write and complain. Complain and write. The situation simply will not improve if we go around making excuses for them. Tough s**t in my book.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='mcarp555']Part of this bias stems from the idea that left-handers are a marginal market, and therefore it's easy enough to dismiss us. [/quote]

You are, and you are for a lot of companies.

[quote name='mcarp555']
If you're going to commit to the idea of making musical instruments, then that would entail the concept of making them for both right- and left-handers. It's not like left-handed people appeared in 1955 and Gibson was caught unawares. We've always been here. [/quote]


Why? Is this like a public service? No it isn't. I don't understand why you believe that this entail the concept of making them for both right and left handers, it is entirely down to the company. As someone who started off playing the piano, it took me a while to get my head around the concept that there was a left handed guitar, or that a guitar intrinsically had a handedness. Other instruments dont. I think the first people who came up with a left handed guitar did a large group of people a disservice.

[quote name='mcarp555']
As for jigs, reprogramming the machines, etc., that's all part of doing business. Doesn't all this need done if you move from making say, Precisions one day to Jazzes the next? [/quote]

But you don't do that. You have a set of machines doing precisions, then a set of machines doing jazzes.


[quote name='mcarp555' ]
Besides, the problem of crying about cost for LH instruments could probably be solved very easily: make the rightys pay for it
[/quote]

Why should I have to pay more for you to have a left handed guitar. I don't care if you have a left handed guitar or not.


[quote name='mcarp555']
So the bottom line is, it does take money to make money. Guitar manufacturers should have always considered doing a certain percentage of ALL their models in a left-hand version. If I have money and want to buy a particular guitar or bass, I should be able to do so. If not, they are discriminating against me (or people like me). Some people don't like that ugly word, "discrimination", but that's exactly what it is. Many companies would like to just make righty instruments all day and not have to deal with people like "us". We didn't just drop out of the sky yesterday, however. So they come up with one excuse after another to justify their ability to discriminate against "us". You and me.
[/quote]




Sorry, this isn't discrimination, this is entitlement. Why are you entitled to have a guitar made by who you choose? Does that mean that I can complain to Christian Louboutin that she doesn't make mens shoes? this is discrimination too. Can I complain to Abbercrombie and Filch don't make things in my size as they only do small sizes?

No of course I can't. This isn't about discrimination, this is about business.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='mcarp555']
So what can we do about it? Don't pay for an upcharge, for one thing. Support left- hand friendly companies. The biggest thing is to contact the manufacturers and complain.
[/quote]

Ok that at last makes sense. It is purely down to market pressure that they will produce left handed guitars. Unless they see a market they are not going to bother, really under almost all cases the only thing they really care about is making money. if they can make money out of left handed users they will. If they make loads of left handed guitars and they don't sell then they will stop doing it.

Ultimately the machines that do left and right handed guitars are exactly the same, and the techniques involved are the same. if you can make X pounds selling item A and X+1 pounds selling item B, you are going to make B, unless there is another reason to make A.

[quote name='mcarp555']
As I've said on several forums, if they can't be bothered to make guitars and basses for people to purchase, they should give it up and make toasters instead.[/quote]

But they can. Just not you. Ultimate it is about money. if there are left handed instruments sitting in shops and they are not selling (which there are, I have seen them), the shop owners are not going to take on more.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397587090' post='2425474']
The market will [u]only[/u] expand when they know we're out here. How will they know? We have to [i]let[/i] them know. Economic disparity is not something we have to put up with. Only if we allow it to go on will it continue. I hate to see people make excuses for guitar companies. I honestly don't care about their problems. If they cannot make equipment for everyone, they're probably in the wrong business. As I've said, it's not like left-handed people suddenly appeared out of nowhere. If they can't be bothered, let 'em go out of business. Write and complain. Complain and write. The situation simply will not improve if we go around making excuses for them. Tough s**t in my book.
[/quote]

Of course they know you're out there and what's more they know exactly how many left hand instruments you buy. And guess what - it's less than right-hand ones!

You may not care about their problems, so why should they care about yours? They don't HAVE to make left-hand instruments at all do they?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397555138' post='2425010']
I can't take crying about the cost of jigs or reprogramming CNC machines when I see abominations like this:



Was this [i]really[/i] cheaper to make than a left-hand bass?
[/quote] that looks like an answer to the question the managing director of Fender asked when he wanted to know what on earth the factory manager intended to do with the big pile of unsold lefty necks that no one was buying.

It's economics, I don't really get the discrimination and entitlement that they "should" thing you're going with.

Are you typing this with a YTREWQ keyboard? Nope, you learnt to use a device set up for the majority of right handed folk.... in my opinion whoever got you your first bass should have got you a right handed one and you would have been none the wiser.

[KingBollock]

You seem to be under the rather odd impression that companies like Gibson and Fender won't be successful if they don't make left handed guitars.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1397587102' post='2425475']
Why? Is this like a public service? No it isn't. I don't understand why you believe that this entail the concept of making them for both right and left handers, it is entirely down to the company. As someone who started off playing the piano, it took me a while to get my head around the concept that there was a left handed guitar, or that a guitar intrinsically had a handedness. [u][i][b]Other instruments dont[/b][/i][/u]. I think the first people who came up with a left handed guitar did a large group of people a disservice.
[/quote]

Actually they do.

I've been lurking this thread without getting involved since the beginning. Long-standing members with long memories will know my views on this subject, but I don't bother so much these days since I got tired of doing this:

However I feel I ought to correct this poster on a point of detail. Many instruments are right-handed. For example:-[list=1]
[*]All keyboard instruments (yes, really) - hint... Google is your friend ;
[*]All orchestral stringed instruments.
[/list]
Additionally, most of the things around us are designed around the needs of the right-handed majority. I won't put up a list here unless somebody forces me to (because it would get very long and very boring very quickly; and because most of them are common knowledge to the left-handed community), but they just are - scissors and handwriting should do for now.

I don't have a big issue about it these days - live and let live and all that (and fwiw I agree - with a degree of sadness - that guitar companies are under no obligation to make left-handed instruments if they don't see it as being in their commercial interest); but if we're going to have an intelligent discussion about this, it might be a good idea to make sure we have our facts straight.

Edited April 16, 2014 by leftybassman392

[molan]

At the shop I work we went through a period of 'positive discrimination' towards left-handed instruments for a while.

We over-stocked relative to regular right-handed ones vs average percentage of players and customers and commissioned a few custom builds to offer something a bit different.

The shop owner was really keen to offer things people found hard to find (across the whole store) and lefties were an obvious market.

Unfortunately they took an absolute age to sell. Average rate of sale was far worse than righties and cost of stock (simply the amount it cost us to buy them and keep them hanging on the wall and tying up valuable capital) made them unprofitable.

Some we even had to discount below cost to sell.

We now have just one in stock and it's been on the wall since March 2013 and hasn't been played by anyone this year.

We also sell a range of custom build instruments from about £950 up to many thousands and I do all the spec confirmation and price quotes. We've had just one request in 3 years for a lefty and that didn't result in a sale.

Our simple summary is that it's just unprofitable for a small specialist retailer to stock left-handed instruments.

We'd love to offer more but selling virtually zero profit or at a loss is no way for us to stay in business

[skej21]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1397635487' post='2425784']
At the shop I work we went through a period of 'positive discrimination' towards left-handed instruments for a while.

We over-stocked relative to regular right-handed ones vs average percentage of players and customers and commissioned a few custom builds to offer something a bit different.

The shop owner was really keen to offer things people found hard to find (across the whole store) and lefties were an obvious market.

Unfortunately they took an absolute age to sell. Average rate of sale was far worse than righties and cost of stock (simply the amount it cost us to buy them and keep them hanging on the wall and tying up valuable capital) made them unprofitable.

Some we even had to discount below cost to sell.

We now have just one in stock and it's been on the wall since March 2013 and hasn't been played by anyone this year.

We also sell a range of custom build instruments from about £950 up to many thousands and I do all the spec confirmation and price quotes. We've had just one request in 3 years for a lefty and that didn't result in a sale.

Our simple summary is that it's just unprofitable for a small specialist retailer to stock left-handed instruments.

We'd love to offer more but selling virtually zero profit or at a loss is no way for us to stay in business
[/quote]

We were in the exact same boat last year. Bought a load of lefty les Paul's, a few basses, some Gretsch and fender and out of the lot, we sold one.

The main response we got from the lefty players coming in? 'Its nice that you have a few but I want a selection to choose from if I'm buying'... We sell a number of Gibson Les Paul traditionals every week but our black lefty LP traditional has been in the shop for nearly 2 years and a year of that at a seriously reduced price. They just don't shift and businesses don't want stock that hangs around and makes no money.

The market will never grow with this attitude. It's a big monetary gamble for a company to buy lefty stock and it then doesn't sell because leftys get militant and 'want a better choice'. That means selling stock at little/no profit or worse, at a loss, and that then reflects to the shop itself but also the manufacturers that lefty instruments don't sell.

Companies aren't going to produce 100 different styles and colours and pickup configurations of lefty instrument so you can choose one to buy out of the bunch. The leftys attitude of 'I'm entitled to a choice' is actually hindering the growth of the lefty market. If they bought a few up and got them moving through the stores, more would sell, figures at store/manufacturing levels would increase (demand) meaning that it would also increase the supply. It's pretty straight forward.

Edited April 16, 2014 by skej21

[skelf]

The previous two years I built a left hander to take to the London bass show. Over the two shows only one bass was tried by one person. I had to discount both basses in order to sell them and even at that it took ages. So at the last show I did not build a left hander and have decided not to build a stock left hand bass again for the simple reason there is very little interest.
I am quiet happy to build a left handed instrument but would point out that it takes longer to build than the same instrument as a right handed one.

[molan]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1397636827' post='2425800']
We were in the exact same boat last year. Bought a load of lefty les Paul's, a few basses, some Gretsch and fender and out of the lot, we sold one.

The main response we got from the lefty players coming in? 'Its nice that you have a few but I want a selection to choose from if I'm buying'... We sell a number of Gibson Les Paul traditionals every week but our black lefty LP traditional has been in the shop for nearly 2 years and a year of that at a seriously reduced price. They just don't shift and businesses don't want stock that hangs around and makes no money.

The market will never grow with this attitude. It's a big monetary gamble for a company to buy lefty stock and it then doesn't sell because leftys get militant and 'want a better choice'. That means selling stock at little/no profit or worse, at a loss, and that then reflects to the shop itself but also the manufacturers that lefty instruments don't sell.

Companies aren't going to produce 100 different styles and colours and pickup configurations of lefty instrument so you can choose one to buy out of the bunch. The leftys attitude of 'I'm entitled to a choice' is actually hindering the growth of the lefty market. If they bought a few up and got them moving through the stores, more would sell, figures at store/manufacturing levels would increase (demand) meaning that it would also increase the supply. It's pretty straight forward.
[/quote]

I must admit that this is exactly the same attitude we got when we had a larger stock of leftys - the general view was that however many we had it simply wasn't enough and their was an expectation that we'd need to stock maybe half as many leftys as rightys to offer a decent range. With sales accounting for about 2% this was unlikely to ever happen.

[molan]

[quote name='skelf' timestamp='1397636976' post='2425805']
The previous two years I built a left hander to take to the London bass show. Over the two shows only one bass was tried by one person. I had to discount both basses in order to sell them and even at that it took ages. So at the last show I did not build a left hander and have decided not to build a stock left hand bass again for the simple reason there is very little interest.

[/quote]

That's exactly what happened to us - we commissioned a special build lefty Carvin to take to the show last year and only one person played it (maybe the same one!). It's still hanging on our wall and I've just knocked even more off the price to try and shift it. I think it's unlikely we'll order more for stock based on this and will have to move to a 'special order' only basis

[skelf]

Happy to build them but now only to order. I thought the same as you in that building a left hander for the showing knowing there would be very few custom built left handers there would make me stand out and attract some customers but I was completely wrong there was no interest at all.

Edited April 16, 2014 by skelf

[mcarp555]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1397587102' post='2425475']
I think the first people who came up with a left handed guitar did a large group of people a disservice.
[/quote]
[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1397599877' post='2425634']
n my opinion whoever got you your first bass should have got you a right handed one and you would have been none the wiser.
[/quote]

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is the issue in miniature: "Why didn't you just learn to play right-handed in the first place?" I wish there was a way to count all the people who picked up a guitar or bass and tried earnestly to learn to play it in the wrong direction, then gave up and decided they weren't 'musical'. This kind of narrowminded thinking ranks up there with "Why don't gay people just stop being gay?", "Why doesn't everyone like [blank] like [i][b]I [/b][/i]do?" You think it easy, you pick up a left-handed instrument and teach yourself to play. Discrimination, pure and simple.

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1397634849' post='2425777']
Many instruments are right-handed. For example:-[list=1]
[*]All keyboard instruments (yes, really) - hint... Google is your friend ;
[*]All orchestral stringed instruments.
[/list]
[/quote]

Pianos are not right-handed. There are instruments in which 'handedness' does not matter; many brass instruments, for example. In my mind, pianos are geared more towards left-hand play - you 'pluck' the bass notes with the left, and 'finger' the melody with the right. But I know this is an illusion. The myth of the left/right handed piano is just that - a myth.

And every stringed instrument you can name is available left-handed. Violins, basses, cellos, etc. (as you say - Google is your friend). The discrimination against LH orchestral players is purely for visual sake - it looks "wrong" to have players bow in the "wrong" direction. As if that really makes a difference. It was probably a struggle to get women or people of colour into orchestras at first. Does that mean that it was "okay" to have just all-white, male, right-handed orchestras? Why is it "okay" now to have women? What changed? Why can't it change again?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397638027' post='2425824']
Why can't it change again?
[/quote]

What, exactly, is it that you're asking to change? Music shops to stock up with equal numbers of left and right guitars/basses, even if it risks financial suicide for them?

[mcarp555]

I agree with many of the comments above from builders and dealers - they are the ones stuck in the middle. Guitar companies make (as I've mentioned before) the one or two models (usually only in black). Every LH player sees them in every shop, and we don't want them. Many left-hand players refuse to ever buy another black instrument as long as they live. So there they sit, gathering dust. Dealer tells the manufacturer "It's not selling", manufacturer says, "See? They don't sell! Why should we make more?", and the circle continues.

Ironically, the manufacturers do make the problem worse for themselves with their 'lone black' model - if cost per model is so important, it must be crippling to make just the one or two they do produce. So why do they bother at all? Why not just drop all the LH models and be done with it?

Because they know there is money to be made, but when so much business is righty, why bother? If you can pick fruit off the ground, why bother reaching up? With all the parts there for the taking, they could easily make every model in a LH version. Even if it was done on a 'by-demand' basis, it could drastically lower overall production costs. It's very probable that as online shopping finally chokes off the small retailers (as it's doing with every other business), this could turn out to be a way to crack the nut.

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397638027' post='2425824']
And here, ladies and gentlemen, is the issue in miniature: "Why didn't you just learn to play right-handed in the first place?" I wish there was a way to count all the people who picked up a guitar or bass and tried earnestly to learn to play it in the wrong direction, then gave up and decided they weren't 'musical'. This kind of narrowminded thinking ranks up there with "Why don't gay people just stop being gay?", "Why doesn't everyone like [blank] like [i][b]I [/b][/i]do?" You think it easy, you pick up a left-handed instrument and teach yourself to play. Discrimination, pure and simple.
[/quote]

While I fully agree with this, and also with the hope for change, I don't share the sense of entitlement. Companies lose money on lefty instruments, and they will continue to lose money (and consequently axe production of lefty instruments) for as long as half or more of all lefties - who are already a minority - choose to (or are forced to) learn to play righty.

I think the work needs to start with lefties themselves - we need to learn not to be bullied into becoming substandard righty musicians. Manufacturers will follow the demand, once there is some. In the meantime, I think we'll need to put up with less choice in models and buy what's available. It's going to be a long process and take patience and resilience.
Incidentally, the above easily applies to any other handed object or instrument on the market, not just in the music field.

Edited April 16, 2014 by bluejay

[mcarp555]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397639066' post='2425839']
What, exactly, is it that you're asking to change? Music shops to stock up with equal numbers of left and right guitars/basses, even if it risks financial suicide for them?
[/quote]

What I want to change is the attitude - the idea that left-handed people can't play in orchestras. That left-handed people should "shut up and learn to play the right way". That left-handed people have to settle for less than what you can have.