The BS of Guitar Companies

[mcarp555]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1397639359' post='2425845']
I think the work needs to start with lefties themselves - we need to learn not to be bullied into becoming substandard righty musicians.
[/quote]

True, and that's the nub of what I'm saying. Contact the makers and make your voice heard.

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1397639359' post='2425845']
In the meantime, I think we'll need to put up with less choice in models and buy what's available. It's going to be a long process and take patience and resilience.
[/quote]

The situation does get better all the time - there's no doubt about that. But it's a matter of keeping the heat on. We cannot afford to be complacent.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397638027' post='2425824']
Pianos are not right-handed. There are instruments in which 'handedness' does not matter; many brass instruments, for example. In my mind, pianos are geared more towards left-hand play - you 'pluck' the bass notes with the left, and 'finger' the melody with the right. But I know this is an illusion. The myth of the left/right handed piano is just that - a myth. [/quote]

Much as I dislike disagreeing with a fellow Lefty...

[quote] And every stringed instrument you can name is available left-handed. Violins, basses, cellos, etc. (as you say - Google is your friend).
[/quote]

You forgot to mention Pianos:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cowjrSTHKTw[/media]

In this clip the pianist explains clearly why he had his instrument made as it was. Personally, I'm happy to accept the word of a professional concert pianist. If, however, you still think it's a myth then we should probably agree to disagree. As to Woodwind instruments such as Clarinets and Saxophones, well the jury's out for me as I don't know much about them; but it will depend greatly on which hand controls which notes. And if a brass instrument such as a trombone isn't Righthanded as a default then I don't know what would be. Interestingly, some members of the brass family do appear on the face of it to be essentially Lefthanded (French horns and trumpets spring to mind), which has always struck me as a bit odd...

All this is a bit beside the mission you seem to be on with this thread though, so apologies for sidetracking it.

Edited April 16, 2014 by leftybassman392

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397639785' post='2425851']
True, and that's the nub of what I'm saying. Contact the makers and make your voice heard.
[/quote]

No, I don't think we're on the same wavelength here. It's not writing to the manufacturers that would help in this case, whether or not the manufacturers themselves are lefty-friendly - they currently can't afford to do much for us (see all the discussion above).
It's us who need to help ourselves. As a hypothetical example: if the only available lefty bass I can get my hands on is black, provided the rest of it is to my liking, I'll buy that bass rather than turning a red/sunburst/green righty upside down or, if I'm a beginner, learn to play righty altogether. Multiply that slightly less-than-ideal purchase by every left-handed bassist or would-be bassist, and you immediately double the size of the market, because all lefties would be playing lefty instruments. Demand would eventually trickle through to manufacturers, and red/sunburst/green lefty basses would eventually start appearing.

[skej21]

I must admit I am MASSIVELY outnumbered by my colleagues at work in terms of being a righty. All of them apart from me are left-handed and all of them have achieved a minimum of grade 8 and above on their main instrument playing right-handed and are mostly proficient on a number of other instruments too. Lefties are just as entitled to choose to play right-handed as you are to choose not to.

Most of the guys I work with don't understand the concept of being a leftie on guitar/bass etc. One of them actually believes it makes more sense to be left-handed and play a "right-handed" instrument as the dexterity required for playing the notes on the neck comes from your left hand, exploiting his natural left hand dexterity. He does play drums left-handed though.

As for the 'i dont buy it because its not EXACTLY right/its only available in black' argument... I've bought a number of basses in finishes i dont like and had them refinished, or changed pickups, or hardware, or pickguards etc etc etc. I have a lot of customers (mainly right-handed players) that do exactly the same thing and often bring it back to show us their modifications.

Refusing to buy something because it doesnt meet your EXACT specifications is a stupid idea whether youre right or left handed. Thats what custom builds are for and it's just making the situation worse for lefties.

Whilst I agree that we should strive to improve choice for left-handed players, they set the bar so high in terms of expectations that suppliers and stores will always struggle to meet them.

Edited April 16, 2014 by skej21

[flyfisher]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397639281' post='2425843']
I agree with many of the comments above from builders and dealers - they are the ones stuck in the middle. Guitar companies make (as I've mentioned before) the one or two models (usually only in black). Every LH player sees them in every shop, and we don't want them. Many left-hand players refuse to ever buy another black instrument as long as they live. So there they sit, gathering dust. Dealer tells the manufacturer "It's not selling", manufacturer says, "See? They don't sell! Why should we make more?", and the circle continues.
[/quote]

I'm not clear about this point. Are you saying that shops only tend to stock black lefties or that black is the only colour the manufacturers use?

I can understand someone not wanting a black bass, but I can't understand why the colour would put them off trying one. After all, the colour doesn't affect tone or playability does it? If they like it, then surely they could order it in the colour they want?

[lurksalot]

What I don't get , is why get all upset about the issue? You clearly believe there is a demand , why don't you commit to supplying this demand and commission/build the products to satisfy that demand rather than complain that others dont.
That way you can help your fellow lefties and make some money from the experience in the process.

[skej21]

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1397642376' post='2425900']
What I don't get , is why get all upset about the issue? You clearly believe there is a demand , why don't you commit to supplying this demand and commission/build the products to satisfy that demand rather than complain that others dont.
That way you can help your fellow lefties and make some money from the experience in the process.
[/quote]

Because we are driven by consumerism and WE WANT IT NOW!! (and someone else should have read my mind, found out exactly what I want, done all the hard work and footed the bill DAMNIT! Or i'll be expressing my anger from the comfort of my armchair across every internet forum and review site indiscriminately!)

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1397642158' post='2425892']
I must admit I am MASSIVELY outnumbered by my colleagues at work in terms of being a righty. All of them apart from me are left-handed and all of them have achieved a minimum of grade 8 and above on their main instrument playing right-handed and are mostly proficient on a number of other instruments too. Lefties are just as entitled to choose to play right-handed as you are to choose not to.

Most of the guys I work with don't understand the concept of being a leftie on guitar/bass etc. One of them actually believes it makes more sense to be left-handed and play a "right-handed" instrument as the dexterity required for playing the notes on the neck comes from your left hand, exploiting his natural left hand dexterity. He does play drums left-handed though.
[/quote]

Being absolutely useless at doing most things with my right hand I may not be the best person to comment on this, but it looks like a spurious argument to me. I mean, if it was true, then there would be a lot of demand for lefty instruments by right-handed players who would want to use their more "dextrous" hand on the fingerboard as opposed to using it for plucking.

Edited April 16, 2014 by bluejay

[skej21]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1397644876' post='2425926']


Being absolutely useless at doing most things with my right hand I may not be the best person to comment on this, but it looks like a spurious argument to me. I mean, if it was true, then there would be a lot of demand for lefty instruments by right-handed players who would want to use their more "dextrous" hand on the fingerboard as opposed to using it for plucking.
[/quote]

I find the opposite to be true of playing piano. I'd much rather my left hand did all the melody as my brain and left hand connect well with my musical thoughts. Whilst that translates well on a bass or guitar, it doesn't on a piano because I have to make my right hand do that side of things and it's much harder. Maybe I need a lefthanded piano?

[Silvia Bluejay]

I think you're agreeing with me, and refuting the theory I was quoting.
And - I've posted this link before, but it's appropriate here too [url="http://www.lefthandedpiano.com/"]http://www.lefthandedpiano.com/[/url]

[Kiwi]

I'm so screwed up by playing right handed for 30 years that both hands are useless for playing melodies. Well, that's my excuse anyway...

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1397634849' post='2425777']However I feel I ought to correct this poster on a point of detail. Many instruments are right-handed. For example:-[list=1]
[*]All keyboard instruments (yes, really) - hint... Google is your friend ;
[*]All orchestral stringed instruments.
[/list]
[/quote]

Huh? Apart from as custom orders or rareties, almost all pianos are not right handed, they are just pianos, which is why you don't order a right handed piano, there is no option.
There are left handed violins, but they are rare.

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1397634849' post='2425777']
it might be a good idea to make sure we have our facts straight.
[/quote]

agreed!

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='mcarp555']
And here, ladies and gentlemen, is the issue in miniature: "Why didn't you just learn to play right-handed in the first place?" I wish there was a way to count all the people who picked up a guitar or bass and tried earnestly to learn to play it in the wrong direction, then gave up and decided they weren't 'musical'. This kind of narrowminded thinking ranks up there with "Why don't gay people just stop being gay?", "Why doesn't everyone like [blank] like [i][b]I [/b][/i]do?" You think it easy, you pick up a left-handed instrument and teach yourself to play. Discrimination, pure and simple.[/quote]


Sorry, there is know way that you can tell how many people gave up the guitar due to it being the wrong way round than there of knowing they just gave up. How do you know the difference caused by handedness? You don't, same as me.
As it happened, yes, I learned to play left handed as the first guitar I had was round my mates who was left handed. Then I learned right handed because my sister got a guitar and it was the other way round. Honestly I have always thought it would be better the other way round. Why is my dumb hand doing the difficult fretting part where my good hand is stuck picking strings?

So how about orchestras? I know two left handed violin players and 3 left handed pianists. So why didn't they give up when they started? None of them seem to have an issue. Or is it that guitarists / bass players are so precious that things have to be the other way round.


[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397638027' post='2425824']
Pianos are not right-handed. There are instruments in which 'handedness' does not matter; many brass instruments, for example. In my mind, pianos are geared more towards left-hand play - you 'pluck' the bass notes with the left, and 'finger' the melody with the right. But I know this is an illusion. The myth of the left/right handed piano is just that - a myth.[/quote]

as the guitar should be.

[molan]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397639281' post='2425843']
I agree with many of the comments above from builders and dealers - they are the ones stuck in the middle. Guitar companies make (as I've mentioned before) the one or two models (usually only in black). Every LH player sees them in every shop, and we don't want them. Many left-hand players refuse to ever buy another black instrument as long as they live. So there they sit, gathering dust. Dealer tells the manufacturer "It's not selling", manufacturer says, "See? They don't sell! Why should we make more?", and the circle continues.

[/quote]

This was absolutely not the case with our store - every one of our lefties was interesting in terms of colour or design and they still didn't sell and we still got grief for not offering enough choice.

We have the potential to offer lefty models across several of our custom build ranges and, as mentioned earlier, we've had just one enquiry for a lefty build in the last three years and that didn't lead to a sale

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1397652172' post='2426056']
Huh? Apart from as custom orders or rareties, almost all pianos are not right handed, they are just pianos, which is why you don't order a right handed piano, there is no option.
[/quote]

Well actually....



I would normally want to quibble even with that, but perhaps another day.

I'm off out for a drive in my funky little two-seater now. It's a tough job (especially on a sunny day like today), but it has to be done.

[Woodinblack]

If you need left handed basses, there are 3 in the music shop in dorchester. I haven't been there in a while, but they were there 2.5 years ago when i started a job there, and they were still there last year when I left it, so I would put money on them still being there.


[quote name='skelf' timestamp='1397636976' post='2425805']
I am quiet happy to build a left handed instrument but would point out that it takes longer to build than the same instrument as a right handed one.
[/quote]

I played one of your left handed basses last month. Truth to say I didn't find it very comfortable
But the week before last I played two of your right handed ones, one 32" and a 34" (and a guitar with luminous side markers - fantastic idea). they were way better

Edited April 16, 2014 by Woodinblack

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1397642158' post='2425892']
One of them actually believes it makes more sense to be left-handed and play a "right-handed" instrument as the dexterity required for playing the notes on the neck comes from your left hand, exploiting his natural left hand dexterity.
[/quote]

I am so glad that you posted this ... I didn't want to have to be the one to do it!

Although I think you'll find that "left hand dexterity" is an oxymoron.



[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1397644876' post='2425926']
Being absolutely useless at doing most things with my right hand I may not be the best person to comment on this, but it looks like a spurious argument to me. I mean, if it was true, then there would be a lot of demand for lefty instruments by right-handed players who would want to use their more "dextrous" hand on the fingerboard as opposed to using it for plucking.
[/quote]

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't play a R/H bass in a R/H fashion because I am right-handed (which I am, by the way) and it feels more natural or better that way.

I play a R/H bass in a R/H fashion because that's what I was presented with when I first picked up a bass - or, more accurately, when the 12-year-old me picked up a guitar for the first time.

If that 1970's guitar had been L/H and I had been shown how to play it L/H it would never have occurred to me that maybe my right hand would be better at plucking, while my left hand would be better at fingering.

Even as I write that, I still can't think why being right handed OR left handed should make one hand better at either plucking or fingering. Our primate ancestors by and large did very little of either ...

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1397653065' post='2426068']
I am so glad that you posted this ... I didn't want to have to be the one to do it!

Although I think you'll find that "left hand dexterity" is an oxymoron.





I can see where you're coming from, but I don't play a R/H bass in a R/H fashion because I am right-handed (which I am, by the way) and it feels more natural or better that way.

I play a R/H bass in a R/H fashion because that's what I was presented with when I first picked up a bass - or, more accurately, when the 12-year-old me picked up a guitar for the first time.

If that 1970's guitar had been L/H and I had been shown how to play it L/H it would never have occurred to me that maybe my right hand would be better at plucking, while my left hand would be better at fingering.

Even as I write that, I still can't think why being right handed OR left handed should make one hand better at either plucking or fingering. Our primate ancestors by and large did very little of either ...
[/quote]

OK, so here we have people who say the plucking hand should not be perceived as the dominant one; therefore lefties can play a righty instrument with their "better" hand in the correct place. Yay. So,why isn't that true of righties then? Why isn't there an absolutely massive demand for lefty instruments, if you guys' "better" hand, the right, is more suited to the fretboard? Don't say "because there are not enough lefty models" - we've established that demand drives the offer, and there are a lot of righty players out there. If that myth was true of lefties, it would be true of righties and they'd have found a way to get manufacturers to help.

[skej21]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1397653462' post='2426079']


OK, so here we have people who say the plucking hand should not be perceived as the dominant one; therefore lefties can play a righty instrument with their "better" hand in the correct place. Yay. So,why isn't that true of righties then? Why isn't there an absolutely massive demand for lefty instruments, if you guys' "better" hand, the right, is more suited to the fretboard? Don't say "because there are not enough lefty models" - we've established that demand drives the offer, and there are a lot of righty players out there. If that myth was true of lefties, it would be true of righties and they'd have found a way to get manufacturers to help.
[/quote]

I don't remember having the option to choose. I started on double bass when I was 8 and didn't have the chance to try a left handed version. If I had, I might have found it more comfortable. I remember it taking a long time to develop my left hand to being dexterous enough to play smoothly. Who is to say that wouldn't have been the case if I'd been playing the fretboard stuff with my right hand? I can't because I never had the chance to compare.

My colleague at work, however, picked up guitar at 14 and tried a lefty acoustic and a righty acoustic when choosing his first guitar (as he knew he was left handed but the assistant told him it'd be worth trying both to see which felt most natural) and he felt more comfort using his left hand to fret. That's not wrong and I'm not saying there is a right or wrong way. I'm simply highlighting that not all lefties got nicely into the 'if you're a lefty, you HAVE to play a lefty guitar unless someone has FORCED you into learning right handed' box like some if the militant lefties around here would like to think.

Edited April 16, 2014 by skej21

[charic]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1397653462' post='2426079']
OK, so here we have people who say the plucking hand should not be perceived as the dominant one; therefore lefties can play a righty instrument with their "better" hand in the correct place. Yay. So,why isn't that true of righties then?
[/quote]

Because there's no one making basses for us so we learn the other way!


*runs away

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1397653065' post='2426068']
Although I think you'll find that "left hand dexterity" is an oxymoron.


[/quote]

From the Latin:

[i][u][b]Dexter -> Right[/b][/u][/i]. Leads to words like dextrous, dexterity and ambidextrous (which translates most accurately as 'on the right both sides'). Lots of positive connotations that should be fairly obvious.

[u][i][b]Sinister -> Left.[/b][/i][/u] Negative connotations should need no further explanation either I would hope!


One last thought: the term 'cack-handed' comes from the Islamic notion of the unclean hand, and in the days before the invention of toilet paper it meant [i][b]exactly [/b][/i]what you'd think it ought to mean.

Edited April 16, 2014 by leftybassman392

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1397653065' post='2426068']
I play a R/H bass in a R/H fashion because that's what I was presented with when I first picked up a bass - or, more accurately, when the 12-year-old me picked up a guitar for the first time.

[/quote]

Actually, I want to re-visit this.

I've been thinking about it, and of course it didn't start with the 12-year-old me picking up a guitar, it actually started with the 6-year-old me picking up an air guitar or, as we gigging musicians prefer to describe it, a tennis racquet.

So?

Well, every six year old knows that a guitarists flaps one hand up and down. A tennis racquet doesn't have a strap, so that means that it must be held in place by the non-flapping hand.

So ... that's one flapping hand and one immobile hand. I'm right-handed. So, hold the neck of the tennis racquet with my left hand and flap with my right.

I seriously think that's how I (and maybe everyone else) went the R/H route.

Incidentally, this has nothing to do with playing the tennis racquet by copying the pop groups on TV. The band I first played the tennis racquet to were The Beatles ([i]She Loves You[/i], 1963), my favourite Beatle was Paul Mccartney, and he was of course one of the incredibly rare performers who actually used a L/H instrument.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Happy Jack

[charic]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1397656191' post='2426130']
and he was of course one of the incredibly rare performers who actually used a L/H instrument.
[/quote]

He must have picked up a left handed tennis racket

[Happy Jack]

Nah - they didn't have TV back then ...

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1397652629' post='2426061']
Sorry, there is know way that you can tell how many people gave up the guitar due to it being the wrong way round than there of knowing they just gave up. How do you know the difference caused by handedness? You don't, same as me.
As it happened, yes, I learned to play left handed as the first guitar I had was round my mates who was left handed. Then I learned right handed because my sister got a guitar and it was the other way round. Honestly I have always thought it would be better the other way round. Why is my dumb hand doing the difficult fretting part where my good hand is stuck picking strings?

So how about orchestras? I know two left handed violin players and 3 left handed pianists. So why didn't they give up when they started? None of them seem to have an issue. Or is it that guitarists / bass players are so precious that things have to be the other way round.


as the guitar should be.
[/quote]

Just a thought - as someone who also started off on the piano: did you find that learning the piano made you, in some way "a bit less left-handed"? I know I was a clumsy, malcoordinated southpaw up to the age of 11, who was unfortunately reinforcing all the negative stereotypes of left-handed people. After a few years trying to coordinate both hands across a Joanna, I found that whilst I was still definitely left-handed, the left hand wasn't quite as dominant as it used to be. So much so that I completely forgot about my handedness when I went to look for my first bass.

In that respect, I consider myself lucky. Did these left-handed violinists also have (right-handed) piano lessons to begin with?