The BS of Guitar Companies

[Musicman20]

Bass Direct seem to often have lefty instruments.

[EmmettC]

I accidentally went to the L/H forum and got sucked into reading all of this. We've had a beautiful sunburst american l/h strat on sale for below cost for 4 months now, only one person tried it, but admitted he wasn't really looking to buy, just wanted a "shot". I have sold a dozen or more similar right hand strats in the same time. It really is a stunning looking guitar, there's just no market for it.

On the other hand, I bought my 2 year old (right handed) nephew a Ukulele recently and he plays it left handed as much, or more, than he plays it right handed. When I say play I mostly mean hit, but he certainly doesn't seem to find either position more natural.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397555138' post='2425010']
This is a quote from another post that I'd like to discuss in depth. As it might turn out to be a lively subject, I thought it would be better to break it out into its own thread.

To cut to the chase, my opinion is that this is complete and utter BS. It's all part of the lie that many companies use to justify their anti-left bias.
[/quote]

I know Tom well and I know the companies he has worked for, I think it's disrespectful:

1. Calling him out like this.
2. Totally ignoring his experience
3. Not messaging him telling him you are posting this.

[throwoff]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397555138' post='2425010']
This is a quote from another post that I'd like to discuss in depth. As it might turn out to be a lively subject, I thought it would be better to break it out into its own thread.

To cut to the chase, my opinion is that this is complete and utter BS. It's all part of the lie that many companies use to justify their anti-left bias. Part of this bias stems from the idea that left-handers are a marginal market, and therefore it's easy enough to dismiss us. While it's true that the economy and tight markets, increased competition, etc. all make the guitar biz a cutthroat one, I would like to point out that guitar manufacturers exist for one reason: to make instruments. If you're going to commit to the idea of making musical instruments, then that would entail the concept of making them for both right- and left-handers. It's not like left-handed people appeared in 1955 and Gibson was caught unawares. We've always been here. So the idea of making RH and LH guitars/basses should not be news. Instead, LH models are seen as irrelevant, like changing the specs on pots or wiring or cheaper wood you can cover with paint. If Fender changes the source of their 'included' straps from Korea to China or Indonesia in order to save a few cents per unit, no one cares. Dropping X number of LH instruments next year elicits (they hope) the same response.

In many cases, what happens is that the idea that "We don't have to make LH instruments" becomes a self-fulling prophesy, and one that's repeated over and over until it has the ring of truth about it. People take it as an axiom that there's no money in LH gear, and it's difficult to do, and all the other horses**t, without really knowing if it's true or not. And thus it becomes easier to not bother, or not ask.

As for jigs, reprogramming the machines, etc., that's all part of doing business. Doesn't all this need done if you move from making say, Precisions one day to Jazzes the next? Does it cost money to make left handed instruments? Sure it does. But it does for right handed instruments as well. Whatever you manufacture, you have to spend the money. I can't take crying about the cost of jigs or reprogramming CNC machines when I see abominations like this:



Was this [i]really[/i] cheaper to make than a left-hand bass?

Besides, the problem of crying about cost for LH instruments could probably be solved very easily: make the rightys pay for it.

When a guitar or bass is priced out at the factory level, don't break out the cost of a small number of LH versions separately. Add it in and adjust the MSRP accordingly. If you need to raise the list price of a new bass by £10-20 to cover a small (maybe 2-3%) of LH copies, fine. I don't mind if the larger market pays to allow the smaller market more access.

And as for instruments sitting around in warehouses for extended times, perhaps they could try making something different. We've all seen the black instrument gathering dust in our local music stores. Why do they keep making the same model, in the same colour, year after year, then complain when nobody buys them? For years with Fender (again), it's been that you can't get a Jazz with a maple neck. The two models they make every year are always rosewood. Would it kill them to make maple? Would it really divert precious resources away from things like the item above? You make one or two depressingly humdrum models year in and year out. They don't sell of course, so you can then point to your sales reports and justify not doing anything to improve the market.

For some companies, their solution is to upcharge. It's an unfair tax upon being left-handed, and even so, you still can't get any model you want. Most places only allow for certain models to be "upcharged". What other industry can get away with doing things like this?

So the bottom line is, it does take money to make money. Guitar manufacturers should have always considered doing a certain percentage of ALL their models in a left-hand version. If I have money and want to buy a particular guitar or bass, I should be able to do so. If not, they are discriminating against me (or people like me). Some people don't like that ugly word, "discrimination", but that's exactly what it is. Many companies would like to just make righty instruments all day and not have to deal with people like "us". We didn't just drop out of the sky yesterday, however. So they come up with one excuse after another to justify their ability to discriminate against "us". You and me.

So what can we do about it? Don't pay for an upcharge, for one thing. Support left-hand friendly companies. The biggest thing is to contact the manufacturers and complain. I've had the marketing manager of Hofner send me a very abusive letter when I wanted to know why a company who's single biggest endorsee is left-handed only features five LH models in their entire catalog (minus that famous bass). When I bought my Gaskell T-bass, I wrote to Gibson and sent them a photo of the bass and told them that was well over a grand of my money they weren't getting. They are not mind-readers. If we want more left-hand instruments, we need to contact them and let them know we're out here, with plenty of money.

As I've said on several forums, if they can't be bothered to make guitars and basses for people to purchase, they should give it up and make toasters instead.
[/quote]

Let me start by saying I have worked in the Guitar industry for a good number of years, I am now out of industry as I decided I wanted to move into a completely different field. I will try to answer all your points.

I will not name the companies I worked for as I don't speak for them, only from my personal experience but let me say one is know for it's perceived lefty friendliness and one for the opposite. Also, I am a left handed person and play left handed.

First off assess the language you are using, 'anti-lefty bias' ? This is a ridiculous term in my opinion, guitar companies exist for a prime reason, to turn a profit, there are some who are more in it for the love of crafting a superb instrument but at the end of the day you build at x and sell and z and if y is not enough to live on then you don't last very long. The idea any company would decide to ignore a profitable market is shortsighted to say the very least. Leo sat down and made his first guitar yes because he was an inventor but you are a bit naive if you think he wasn't wondering how much he could flog it for.

The idea Fender switch jigs day to day for P's or J's, no, they have a factory full of CNC rigs that can make each one, they don't batch build, they mass produce. The truth like it or not.

Lefties DO cost more to make
They DO take longer to sell
They DO cause problems elsewhere with different cases, bags etc being needed
They DO need a flipped jig that takes time and a good few thousand to make
They DONT have a huge demand
They DONT turn a profit anywhere near as quickly as a righty.

A company of the size of a Fender, Gibson etc make over 95% of their money on righties, like it or not this IS the world we live in. As several people who work in stores have already stated lefties don't move, when a manufacturer builds them they will sit on stock for far longer.

As for your point about increasing the price of righties to make more lefties... I really don't have a way to answer this, the whole idea a company would increase prices for 95% plus of their customers to abate 5% is ridiculous, it is tantamount to suggesting Ford add several thousand pounds to the price of their Focus so they can lower the price of their GT40 for the 10 or so people who buy them each year.

The reason you see Black and Sunburst lefties everywhere? They are the biggest selling colours right handed, so why would a company that chooses to make a lefty limited run choose another colour? They wouldn't they pick the most popular and therefore easiest to sell.

I am afraid discrimination is not the term to use in this situation, it is a loaded word designed to evoke an emotional response, if Gibson want to only make Pink Les Pauls left handed and no other instruments is that discrimination to everyone else? No, they are a private business selling a high end consumer product, they can make whatever they want.

I am currently. alongside my new career in discussions with investors, designers and some stores about a limited run of basses I want to manufacture, the first thing my business partner asked was how many lefties we would do in our initial 150 piece run? The answer from me, a left handed player? NONE. We won't sell them, and will pay through the nose to store them.

You obviously feel very passionately about this and will likely not believe a word of what I say but no amount of emailing companies and kicking up a fuss will change the way the world is. We are a minority, we are not profitable to manufacturers and with the big guys you have to remember, we don't need left handed strings, straps, amps or picks, they will get their cash out of us without ever having to make a lefty bass.

Oh and for future reference, please don't call me out for 'BS' in public like this, if you want a discussion I am happy to have one but this is slightly uncool.

Edited April 16, 2014 by throwoff

[mcarp555]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1397641299' post='2425872']
No, I don't think we're on the same wavelength here. It's not writing to the manufacturers that would help in this case, whether or not the manufacturers themselves are lefty-friendly - they currently can't afford to do much for us (see all the discussion above).
It's us who need to help ourselves. As a hypothetical example: if the only available lefty bass I can get my hands on is black, provided the rest of it is to my liking, I'll buy that bass rather than turning a red/sunburst/green righty upside down or, if I'm a beginner, learn to play righty altogether. Multiply that slightly less-than-ideal purchase by every left-handed bassist or would-be bassist, and you immediately double the size of the market, because all lefties would be playing lefty instruments. Demand would eventually trickle through to manufacturers, and red/sunburst/green lefty basses would eventually start appearing.
[/quote]

Even if every left-handed guitarist/bassist switched to actually playing LH, that would not make the slightest dent in what the manufacturers do. How could it? How would they know? The more people who write and say, "I'm left-handed, and you don't make enough available choices" - that would get their attention. Obviously the more who do it, the bigger the noise we make. But just changing or refusing to play upside down isn't enough.

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1397642158' post='2425892']
I must admit I am MASSIVELY outnumbered by my colleagues at work in terms of being a righty. All of them apart from me are left-handed and all of them have achieved a minimum of grade 8 and above on their main instrument playing right-handed and are mostly proficient on a number of other instruments too. Lefties are just as entitled to choose to play right-handed as you are to choose not to.

Most of the guys I work with don't understand the concept of being a leftie on guitar/bass etc. One of them actually believes it makes more sense to be left-handed and play a "right-handed" instrument as the dexterity required for playing the notes on the neck comes from your left hand, exploiting his natural left hand dexterity. He does play drums left-handed though.

As for the 'i dont buy it because its not EXACTLY right/its only available in black' argument... I've bought a number of basses in finishes i dont like and had them refinished, or changed pickups, or hardware, or pickguards etc etc etc. I have a lot of customers (mainly right-handed players) that do exactly the same thing and often bring it back to show us their modifications.

Refusing to buy something because it doesnt meet your EXACT specifications is a stupid idea whether youre right or left handed. Thats what custom builds are for and it's just making the situation worse for lefties.

Whilst I agree that we should strive to improve choice for left-handed players, they set the bar so high in terms of expectations that suppliers and stores will always struggle to meet them.
[/quote]

The "you use your dexterous hand for fingering" argument can be demolished by saying, "Then why don't you use your right hand for fingering?" It's the strumming hand that really determines which way you go.

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397642329' post='2425897']
I'm not clear about this point. Are you saying that shops only tend to stock black lefties or that black is the only colour the manufacturers use?

I can understand someone not wanting a black bass, but I can't understand why the colour would put them off trying one. After all, the colour doesn't affect tone or playability does it? If they like it, then surely they could order it in the colour they want?
[/quote]

Let's take an example: Fender currently offers the American Standard Jazz bass in [i]12[/i] finishes right-handed, and [i]4 [/i]left-handed. Why? Why can't I have the same selection as a right-handed person? For that matter, why should I have to buy a bass, then strip it down and refinish it in the same colour a right-handed person can get off the peg? Or should I just be grateful I can buy an American Standard left-handed at all? I'm screwed if I want a 5-string. Or a Hot Rod. Or A Fretless. Or a Deluxe Active. And so on. I'm not trying to change the world, I just want parity. If Fender can't make these basses for me, why should they make them for anyone? Surely they don't sell enough of each variation of a Jazz bass to make that much money. Perhaps it would be better if they made just one Jazz bass, available in a set number of colors, and in LH and RH versions.

Well, then, the righty players would want some more variations. You know what, perhaps I would too. I'm denied the same options solely based on my dexterity. You can go on and on about the economics and this and that, but ultimately, it's not fair, and it should be. When women couldn't go to college, or blacks weren't allowed to play football, everyone just shrugged their shoulders and said, "That's just the way it is; Sorry." it all seems very similar. Eventually, every obstacle was overcome and things changed. For the better.

All I want is parity with my right-handed brethren. You can argue, you can naysay, but when the time comes, it will happen. And the first step is to raise awareness. Maybe someone will read this crazy exchange and agree with me. I'm not giving up on the idea just because some people don't think change will happen, and maybe don't want it.

Sometimes I feel like John Hall trying to sell a used Rickenbacker.

[flyfisher]

So you'll be happy when all us 'righties' lobby Gaskell Guitars in an attempt to force them to offer right handed guitars?

[mcarp555]

[quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1397665465' post='2426260']
I am afraid discrimination is not the term to use in this situation

You obviously feel very passionately about this and will likely not believe a word of what I say but no amount of emailing companies and kicking up a fuss will change the way the world is.

Oh and for future reference, please don't call me out for 'BS' in public like this.
[/quote]

First, my apologies to you for the clumsy way I handed the initial post. I was not singling out [i]your[/i] comments as BS, but using it as a springboard to the BS the guitar companies hand out. I meant no disrespect to you personally.

Second, it very much is discrimination, and I'm not going to apologize for that word. It is what is, and if it makes people uncomfortable, tough.

Third, yes, I do feel passionately about the fact that my money is apparently not good enough with various guitar manufacturers, but other people don't have this problem. It would get under the skin of anyone.

[mcarp555]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397666761' post='2426276']
So you'll be happy when all us 'righties' lobby Gaskell Guitars in an attempt to force them to offer right handed guitars?
[/quote]

Jon Hall did a review of a Gaskell guitar on YT, and someone posted a comment that they were bummed they couldn't buy a righty version of the guitar in question. The following response was "Now you know how WE feel". Maybe it would be a good thing to wear the shoe on the other foot for awhile.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397638027' post='2425824']
And here, ladies and gentlemen, is the issue in miniature: "Why didn't you just learn to play right-handed in the first place?" I wish there was a way to count all the people who picked up a guitar or bass and tried earnestly to learn to play it in the wrong direction, then gave up and decided they weren't 'musical'. This kind of narrowminded thinking ranks up there with "Why don't gay people just stop being gay?", "Why doesn't everyone like [blank] like [i][b]I [/b][/i]do?" You think it easy, you pick up a left-handed instrument and teach yourself to play. Discrimination, pure and simple.
[/quote]

I have three problems with this -

The first and possibly more important one is your use of the word "discrimination". Words mean something - if we ramp up our rhetoric to the point where words mean nothing we leave us all mute. So "discrimination", discrimination is not being able to sit in the front of your bus 'cos of the colour of your skin, discrimination is not being served in a B&B as your partner is the same sex as you, discrimination is a company wilfully neglecting to provide you access for your wheelchair to a service, discrimination is a company interviewing Jones, Smith and Roberts for a job, but not Lewandowski, Adiyiah or Al-Shahrani and so on. That's what discrimination is.
A company not selling a wide range of left handed guitars, or a cafe not having a massive coelics' menu, or my local cafe not having some ethiopian mocha beans in that I like, or your bathroom not automatically being provided with a bidet ....is not discrimination.

The second problem I have is... you use two hands to play the bass. Two, both of them.
Why is the dominant hand naturally better at picking/plucking/strumming? For your whole arguement to make any sense beyond you moaning about your preference not being provided for as well you need to be able to explain/prove this.

When I first started playing I would pick up a bass. The whole walking my fingers and making the strings vibrate was easy to pick up - it's a very similar action to the one I'm using to type half these letters. The fretting hand took me way way longer to learn.
I'm left handed playing a right handed bass.
As I see it my dominant hand is doing the harder job. But I also think if someone had given me a left handed bass I would have learned to play it and grown to have the dexterity in both hands needed. You learn. Now if we only played bass with one hand you may have a point - but we use both and need to learn motor and dexterity skills in both hands to play our instrument.

Third point... bass players buy less basses than guitarists guitars. That's why your average music shop has lots more guitars than basses. I'm guessing you're intelligent enough to understand the economic argument put forward when the same idea applied to left handed and right handed models.
Now given that you understand it costs the shop money to have stock sat up on the wall, esp if it doesn't shift quickly I guess you understand why they can't hold a large stock of lefty instruments, but what I don't get- is that given you're talking about wanting to buy a bass... most music shops I've been in will do an order with a manufacturer to get something you want. Is it really so hard to walk into the stockest of the brand you want and pay for and order the bass you want? or are you telling me that a Earnie Ball supplier can't order in a lefty stingray in whatever colour you want?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397666858' post='2426282']
Second, it very much is discrimination, and I'm not going to apologize for that word. It is what is, and if it makes people uncomfortable, tough.
[/quote]

[i][size=4][font=arial]And sorry righties, despite many requests, we have not and never will make a right handed Gaskell guitar. That's just plain wrong![/font][/size][/i]
http://www.gaskellguitars.com/aboutus.html

Discrimination or chips on shoulders?

[RhysP]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397665965' post='2426265']
All I want is parity with my right-handed brethren. You can argue, you can naysay, but when the time comes, it will happen. And the first step is to raise awareness. Maybe someone will read this crazy exchange and agree with me. I'm not giving up on the idea just because some people don't think change will happen, and maybe don't want it.
[/quote]

[URL=http://s86.photobucket.com/user/RhysP/media/images_zps2373d0a5.jpeg.html][IMG]http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/RhysP/images_zps2373d0a5.jpeg[/IMG][/URL]

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397667274' post='2426292']
[i][font=arial]And sorry righties, despite many requests, we have not and never will make a right handed Gaskell guitar. That's just plain wrong![/font][/i]
[url="http://www.gaskellguitars.com/aboutus.html"]http://www.gaskellgu...om/aboutus.html[/url]

Discrimination or chips on shoulders?
[/quote]

/Thread

[Monckyman]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1397654546' post='2426103']
From the Latin:

[i][u][b]Dexter -> Right[/b][/u][/i]. Leads to words like dextrous, dexterity and ambidextrous (which translates most accurately as 'on the right both sides'). Lots of positive connotations that should be fairly obvious.

[u][i][b]Sinister -> Left.[/b][/i][/u] Negative connotations should need no further explanation either I would hope!


One last thought: the term 'cack-handed' comes from the Islamic notion of the unclean hand, and in the days before the invention of toilet paper it meant [i][b]exactly [/b][/i]what you'd think it ought to mean.
[/quote]
And from the French,
Right=a droit: =clever, done well.
Left =gauche =clumsy,unsure.
As a lefty that plays righties because nobody was kind enough to inform me at the time, I feel happy using my dexterity to fret!
I did have an old fashioned school teacher that used to stick me in a cupboard and insist I write with my right hand though..Prhaps she was right, my handwriting is appalling, but my mother soon flattened that idea when she heard of it. She was a lefty too.

[skej21]

[quote name='mcarp555' timestamp='1397666858' post='2426282']


First, my apologies to you for the clumsy way I handed the initial post. I was not singling out [i]your[/i] comments as BS, but using it as a springboard to the BS the guitar companies hand out. I meant no disrespect to you personally.

Second, it very much is discrimination, and I'm not going to apologize for that word. It is what is, and if it makes people uncomfortable, tough.

Third, yes, I do feel passionately about the fact that my money is apparently not good enough with various guitar manufacturers, but other people don't have this problem. It would get under the skin of anyone.
[/quote]

If being 'discriminated' against because you can only have a lefty jazz bass in 4 colours instead of 12 is the only discrimination you've encountered, you're a lucky man.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1397657646' post='2426152']
Just a thought - as someone who also started off on the piano: did you find that learning the piano made you, in some way "a bit less left-handed"?
[/quote]

No, I am not left handed. I learned through the orchestral route with pianos, choral work and then cornets in the school orchestra. I tried violins, didn't like them, did guitars briefly but didn't do anything real until after school.
Honestly I wasn't aware of the concept of a left handed instrument (even though my best friend in the orchestra was left handed) until I started playing guitar (which was on a lefty).

[quote name='flyfisher']
[i][font=arial]And sorry righties, despite many requests, we have not and never will make a right handed Gaskell guitar. That's just plain wrong![/font][/i]

Discrimination or chips on shoulders?
[/quote]

Thats fine, that is how it should be, companies deciding for themselves how they make their money. I do see it is a little dishonest though - I picked the first page, the thunderbird bass where they say it is impossible to get a thunderbird bass in left handed until now. Well, there is a tokai one for sale on the forum right now.

Left handed people huh? Can't trust 'em

Edited April 16, 2014 by Woodinblack

[Mark Dyer]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1397668837' post='2426314']
...Well, there is a tokai one for sale on the forum right now.
[/quote]

Not any more

[molan]

Just for fun I slashed a hefty amount off the price of a lefty bass today to see if it might generate any interest

[skej21]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1397671281' post='2426353']
Just for fun I slashed a hefty amount off the price of a lefty bass today to see if it might generate any interest
[/quote]

Let us know when it goes... In 2020!

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1397671281' post='2426353']
Just for fun I slashed a hefty amount off the price of a lefty bass today to see if it might generate any interest
[/quote]

Link please Barrie?

Edited April 16, 2014 by bluejay

[RhysP]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1397671281' post='2426353']
Just for fun I slashed a hefty amount off the price of a lefty bass today to see if it might generate any interest
[/quote]

BUT IT'S NOT THE RIGHT COLOUR!!! DAMN YOU CRUEL WORLD!!!

[Mark Dyer]

If I were put in charge of a large guitar manufacturing company for a day I would make available three signature models.

A Kurt Cobain signature model, but it would be available as a LH version only.

A Jimi Hendrix signature line of all his guitar variations, all only available as LH versions apart from a RH black body version.

A Paul McCartney bass guitar line, but only available as LH models. maybe a RH model if enough players showed interest.

[Silvia Bluejay]

And a Tony Iommi signature guitar, of course

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Mark Dyer' timestamp='1397675390' post='2426414']
If I were put in charge of a large guitar manufacturing company for a day I would make available three signature models.

A Kurt Cobain signature model, but it would be available as a LH version only.

A Jimi Hendrix signature line of all his guitar variations, all only available as LH versions apart from a RH black body version.

A Paul McCartney bass guitar line, but only available as LH models. maybe a RH model if enough players showed interest.
[/quote]

You would then be fired, business is about money not ideals.

[Mark Dyer]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' timestamp='1397675699' post='2426422']
You would then be fired, business is about money not ideals.
[/quote]

I think you missed the point, read it again with a bit of heavy-handed irony

PS: Business is not about money, it's far more complicated than that.

[throwoff]

[quote name='Mark Dyer' timestamp='1397676428' post='2426433']
I think you missed the point, read it again with a bit of heavy-handed irony

PS: Business is not about money, it's far more complicated than that.
[/quote]

I think fundamentally it is about money... like I said before, with any business you have only three things to worry about -

x, y and z. and the only one that really matters is y.

Build at X
Sell at Z
And Y, well Y needs to make it worthwhile.

If you can do that and then operate with some such direction then more power to you and I genuinely respect the small numbers of firms that do but really you need to make pound notes. Everything else is extra.