Gig promoters and the "pound per head" policy

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1398198206' post='2431626']
When you say . . . .

[i]"Prior to the gig we had agreed to a £20 petrol fee in order to get us from Manchester to Liverpool for the ferry to Dublin and right back up to Belfast and they had humbly agreed to this."[/i]

. . . . did you get their agreement in writing?

If so, why would you not want to 'name and shame' someone who has clearly broken a contractual agreement in order to help prevent other bands falling victim to this sort of desicable behaviour.

If not, er . . . . . at least you now know how much verbal agreements are worth.
[/quote]

This, I'm afraid....

and this is why there is a persistant argument for not paying for silly money.
Don't want to derail the thread but if a constant stream of bands break this 'ethic'
then why will people change the habit. Don't be kidded that they are interested in bands
or what they play when they treat them like this.
It may not always be the promoters fault as such as the venue probably rents them the venue
so this is all part of how people get paid.

I sympathise with you getting ripped off, but you are perpetuating the state of affairs....as will
the next band and the next band.. bla bla.........


But...FF's 'lesson' is valid.... get it in writing and don't delete the audit trail...

[charic]

[quote name='topheteatwo' timestamp='1398199366' post='2431648']
Learn and live on!
[/quote]

Remember to check your sent items too

[ubit]

We get paid 300 quid a gig. I thought that was normal for venues who want to put music on. There is a band here who are undercutting every other band and consequently, getting more gigs, which is a bummer after everyone else has sweated for years to get a decent payment. I have heard some places make bands pay to play, but certainly where we are, theres no such set up. As for this venue. They are being very unreasonable . I would put their windows in!

[BigRedX]

IME this is a Manchester problem and not limited to any particular venue or promoter. In the 3+ years that the Terrortones have been gigging, we've tried countless times to get gigs in Manchester and despite the fact that we have a good reputation as a live act have been faced with either indifference or offers that are essentially "pay to play". And the one gig that we did finally get that was worth doing, was beset with all sorts of organisational problems.

I'm sorry Manchester, you're not London (and even London isn't especially important any more on the gig circuit), you're just another city in the north of England. If there are no promoters or venues prepared to give bands a decent deal, then like us they'll just go to the places that will. So it's possible to see the Terrortones in Liverpool, Blackpool and Stockport (to name but 3 alternative locations in the same general area) but unless things change for the better, I can't see us going back to Manchester any time soon. Sorry to anyone in Manchester who wants to come and see us, but until your venues and promoters stop living in the past and realise that the way gigs are organised has changed, we won't be playing there.

Edited April 23, 2014 by BigRedX

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1398238819' post='2431855']
This, I'm afraid....

and this is why there is a persistant argument for not paying for silly money.
Don't want to derail the thread but if a constant stream of bands break this 'ethic'
then why will people change the habit. Don't be kidded that they are interested in bands
or what they play when they treat them like this.
It may not always be the promoters fault as such as the venue probably rents them the venue
so this is all part of how people get paid.

I sympathise with you getting ripped off, but you are perpetuating the state of affairs....as will
the next band and the next band.. bla bla.........

[/quote]

We've discussed this before, but you make a very persuasive case and are also clearly on top of the 'business side' of being in a band - and all respect for that, it has given me much food for thought.

As I've said before, I play in a 'hobby band' with a bunch of mates and we play about one gig a month. We play for enjoyment with little or no interest in making any money, or even covering our costs (though we've had a few gigs where we've been paid, but more as a 'tip' than a prior arrangement).

This topic is a good example of the importance of the 'business side' of things if a band is going to make decent, regular money. And there, I think, is the issue. Because my two bands (and others like us, I guess) are not particularly interested in the money, all the 'business' stuff represents an unwelcome overhead that we really can't be bothered with. We don't want to put in the time and effort to promote ourselves or our gigs (beyond telling friends and colleagues), print posters, send out demos, cold call venues, discuss T&Cs, sort out contracts, etc. We don't have music business ambitions and are happy just to write our own songs and play a few favourite covers, so we're not 'chasing a dream' - we're just having fun and all that 'business' stuff would detract from that fun.

Thus, our Good Friday pub garden gig last week was the result of a chance discussion with the Landlord of a local pub where both bands played for a couple of hours for free beer to about 50 people, mostly friends, family and acquaintances, and it was a happy afternoon for all concerned. Next week we're playing at a local football club 'supporters day' and we have a couple of charity gigs in the pipeline, including a spot during the Hertford Music Festival - all from informal, word of mouth discussion/invitations and typical of the sort of events we've played for the past five years or so. Also, a couple of band members play at regular 'folk nights' in local pubs, again just for the fun of a musical evening with friends.

So, against that background, what are we expected to do? I can't believe we're unique.

[JTUK]

I agree, ff, it is difficult but I just don't have much sympathy when it goes wrong.

I am glad that BRX points out this is less prevalent that it used to be and it can be bypassed
or ignored but it takes resolve to do this...and as I say, there will be more and more bands that
will continue to do it as they think doing a 'tour'...that actually costs them to do, is worth it.

The sad fact is that some venues think they are doing the bands a favour...and therefore the bands
should pay for it. In fact, they ARE doing that band a favour letting them play there as without that favour
on those terms, bands might have NO chance of playing/getting heard.
Now, put that 'power' in the wrong hands and you get the abuse.
The only thing you can really do is not be part of it as you will never convince some bands
not to take on a 'tour' than doesn't actually pay you.

But, the deal is the deal, and you can't stop people making bad ones, but the important lesson here
is to get what you agreed and legislate for people trying it on.

The only thing I can offer about your situation is... that you are sensible enough to cut your deal
and the money doesn't matter and you are prepared to pay for the priveledge. If you'd said £100
to charity, it may have blown the gig and you didn't need to even muddle the waters with that... of
course, it happens
The OP couldn't as they knew they had costs to cover.

Probably the best thing to come out of this thread has been a 'list' and advice of places to play
that don't scam.

[icastle]

I did find this '£1 per head policy' in a contract my band were sent late last year.

Only two of us have 'touring band' experience, and that was with fixed payment for the tour with transport and accommodation provided.
We discussed the contract for at least 30 seconds (5 if you exclude the swearwords) before dropping it in the bin and I'd advise anyone who gets asked to sign a contract like this to do the same.

It's not a UK wide policy, it's a greedy individual trying to make a lazy buck.

If they were a [b]real[/b] promoter then they'd have actively marketed the band, if they only found three people to come to the gig then they obviously didn't.

They'd also have agreed a minimum fee - after all, a promoter who gets a reputation for paying bands out of loose change isn't going to find many people prepared to work for them.

Not much you can do about it once it's happened so the best advice is to never put yourself in that position again.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1398244965' post='2431933']
I agree, ff, it is difficult but I just don't have much sympathy when it goes wrong.

I am glad that BRX points out this is less prevalent that it used to be and it can be bypassed
or ignored but it takes resolve to do this...and as I say, there will be more and more bands that
will continue to do it as they think doing a 'tour'...that actually costs them to do, is worth it.

The sad fact is that some venues think they are doing the bands a favour...and therefore the bands
should pay for it. In fact, they ARE doing that band a favour letting them play there as without that favour
on those terms, bands might have NO chance of playing/getting heard.
Now, put that 'power' in the wrong hands and you get the abuse.
The only thing you can really do is not be part of it as you will never convince some bands
not to take on a 'tour' than doesn't actually pay you.

But, the deal is the deal, and you can't stop people making bad ones, but the important lesson here
is to get what you agreed and legislate for people trying it on.

The only thing I can offer about your situation is... that you are sensible enough to cut your deal
and the money doesn't matter and you are prepared to pay for the priveledge. If you'd said £100
to charity, it may have blown the gig and you didn't need to even muddle the waters with that... of
course, it happens
The OP couldn't as they knew they had costs to cover.

Probably the best thing to come out of this thread has been a 'list' and advice of places to play
that don't scam.
[/quote]
Think this is where bands need to be "educated" for lack of a better word, about the crap people and deals out there. I've been fortunate enough to be really involved in bands and music to the point where I've had to research how to get the best deal for me. The Musicians Union offer a wealth of information and help on all music subjects and they've helped me a lot. Also bands seem unsure of how they can still get paid without even being paid by the venue or the promoter. Registering with the PRS/MCPS will allow original bands to earn some money from a nights work.

Getting a list of good and bad venues is only if the promoter is also listed. The venue might well be accommodating but the promoter might cause all the issues. I know in Portsmouth we have some seriously hit and miss promoters.

[RockfordStone]

i've played venues like this in the past, but when we have done tours we have made sure that we have agreements in place with the venues and only played venues for free if the lineup was decent.

I don't ever expect to get paid anything for gigs, but i don't do it for the money... if i got offered 3 quid id tell them to keep it, that's more insulting than not getting paid at all

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1398244965' post='2431933']
I agree, ff, it is difficult but I just don't have much sympathy when it goes wrong.
[/quote]

Fair point, though in our situation it can't really go wrong as there is nothing promised and nothing expected because we're happy to effectively waive a fee in return for not having to put in any effort for finding gigs, negotiating terms and policing contracts. That's when it becomes more of a business than a hobby and its a line we don't want to cross.



[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1398244965' post='2431933']
The only thing I can offer about your situation is... that you are sensible enough to cut your deal
and the money doesn't matter and you are prepared to pay for the priveledge.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say we pay for the privilege of gigging. Yes, we spend money on gear and a bit of travel and sometimes rehearsal studios, but we'd be doing all of that whether we gigged or not - we all spend money on what we enjoy doing, don't we? Though I'm beginning to take your point that there could be some money for the asking, if only we pushed for it. Hmm.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1398250069' post='2432013']
I wouldn't say we pay for the privilege of gigging. Yes, we spend money on gear and a bit of travel and sometimes rehearsal studios, but we'd be doing all of that whether we gigged or not - we all spend money on what we enjoy doing, don't we? Though I'm beginning to take your point that there could be some money for the asking, if only we pushed for it. Hmm.
[/quote]

There is money available for all kinds of gigging bands provided that they are entertaining enough to warrant it. My band decided very early on that we would be asking for money for gigs. IMO it works in favour of both the band and the venue/promoter. There is an understanding that both the band and the promoter will be doing their best to make the gig a success.

We will still do gigs for free if we decided that the promotional benefits outweigh the fact we're not going to cover our expenses directly but these are decided on an individual basis.

[Lw.]

I've never encountered a "pound per head" agreement before, that's crazy!

Maybe just live & learn from this one; you should definitely look at knocking up a basic 1 page contract for all your future gigs, just keep it simple; have blank spaces for the promoter name/address & payment amount (even if that is just expenses), keep a save of it then just fill in the details quickly for each gig. Both parties need to sign two copies then keep one each. It makes matters like this much easier to rectify.

[topheteatwo]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1398238819' post='2431855']
This, I'm afraid....

and this is why there is a persistant argument for not paying for silly money.
Don't want to derail the thread but if a constant stream of bands break this 'ethic'
then why will people change the habit. Don't be kidded that they are interested in bands
or what they play when they treat them like this.
It may not always be the promoters fault as such as the venue probably rents them the venue
so this is all part of how people get paid.

I sympathise with you getting ripped off, but you are perpetuating the state of affairs....as will
the next band and the next band.. bla bla.........


But...FF's 'lesson' is valid.... get it in writing and don't delete the audit trail...
[/quote]

I have lived and I have learned hence a quite nastily worded e-mail to the promoter in Sheffield. I always ask for money now and I keep the documents, it was a dumb mistake made by a very young band, we were only 6 months old when we did our first tour and we were still ironing out the creases.

[TheGreek]

I think that you're absolutely justified to be angry with the way you were treated but as somebody said, the venue isn't particularly interested in the band unless the customers are putting money in the till.

As for verbal contracts - they are just as valid as a written one - just harder to prove.

I'd be inclined to get a friend to return to the venue with a couple of Hydrogen Sulphide capsules(stink bombs) which could be strategically placed for somebody to stand on. Vinegar in an ashtray has the same effect (smell).

[chrismuzz]

Thanks for the heads up mate, won't be playing the Roadhouse in Manchester any time soon! I know original bands generallly make less than covers and it may not be about the money but I would be absolutely livid if they couldn't even stump up the pre agreed £20! The problem with a lot of known places in big cities is that they know people are itching to play so will walk over bands

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1398250069' post='2432013']
Fair point, though in our situation it can't really go wrong as there is nothing promised and nothing expected because we're happy to effectively waive a fee in return for not having to put in any effort for finding gigs, negotiating terms and policing contracts. That's when it becomes more of a business than a hobby and its a line we don't want to cross.





I wouldn't say we pay for the privilege of gigging. Yes, we spend money on gear and a bit of travel and sometimes rehearsal studios, but we'd be doing all of that whether we gigged or not - we all spend money on what we enjoy doing, don't we? Though I'm beginning to take your point that there could be some money for the asking, if only we pushed for it. Hmm.
[/quote]

Agree..... except that getting the gig takes a car running cost, if only in fuel....
FWIW, we pay for P.A hire, lights, admin ( prints, ink, stamps etc etc ) and we can't put a price
on every little thing ... but it is a start.

But..look at this from the other side...
If a band said to me we would play with you for nothing... the first thing I'd think is
'what is wrong with them'....??
As it happens, we wanted to offer a band better than pub money, ITRO, £400 for an hr plus..
BUT..they had to commit to trying to sell 100 tickets at £8.00 a ticket. Now, on a local level,
that is a tough ask, IMO. We had no takers.
We'd have been happy if they had chipped with 50 or so ticket sales, in reality.

[Norm]

Pound per head gigs are the norm for playing the "name" venues in Bristol. Usually midweek multi band bills of aspiring local bands tagged together into a facebook event. If all 5 acts bring a dozen people it can be a good night & the venue will shift some beer & the bands will get a quid for
each punter who has bought an advance ticket (from the bands, promoter gives 20-30 tickets to each band to sell or return) or walk INS on the night who mention your name at the door.
Promoter wants all unsold tickets returned or will charge bands per ticket for forgetting them!
So get advertising event & promote it & you might get some money to cover petrol but thats about it. You get to play at the "name" venue with stage, lights & big pa & maybe if you bring people & go down well you might get invited back on a better night or to support a touring act there?
We do them occasionally for exposure in amongst paying gigs on our own. Most young bands of nippers seem to use them as a free live rehearsal ime.
Cheers,
Norm

[JTUK]

[quote name='topheteatwo' timestamp='1398256114' post='2432093']
I have lived and I have learned hence a quite nastily worded e-mail to the promoter in Sheffield. I always ask for money now and I keep the documents, it was a dumb mistake made by a very young band, we were only 6 months old when we did our first tour and we were still ironing out the creases.
[/quote]

Sure... we've all done similar, no doubt. The point of making mistakes is to learn from it.
So, in that instance..not a totally un-worthwhile experience.
Good luck..

[UglyDog]

[quote name='topheteatwo' timestamp='1398256114' post='2432093']
a very young band, we were only 6 months old when we did our first tour
[/quote]
A [i]young[/i] band? god you aren't kidding. I know Vic Wooten apparently started playing bass at the age of two, but you've got him beaten there

[JTUK]

[quote name='Norm' timestamp='1398266090' post='2432244']
Pound per head gigs are the norm for playing the "name" venues in Bristol. Usually midweek multi band bills of aspiring local bands tagged together into a facebook event. If all 5 acts bring a dozen people it can be a good night & the venue will shift some beer & the bands will get a quid for
each punter who has bought an advance ticket (from the bands, promoter gives 20-30 tickets to each band to sell or return) or walk INS on the night who mention your name at the door.
Promoter wants all unsold tickets returned or will charge bands per ticket for forgetting them!
So get advertising event & promote it & you might get some money to cover petrol but thats about it. You get to play at the "name" venue with stage, lights & big pa & maybe if you bring people & go down well you might get invited back on a better night or to support a touring act there?
We do them occasionally for exposure in amongst paying gigs on our own. Most young bands of nippers seem to use them as a free live rehearsal ime.
Cheers,
Norm
[/quote]

This was London 20 plus years ago. Places I can recall that ran this were the Mean Fiddler, Orange Club, Ronnie Scott's and some place in Convent Garden...plus all the big name music pub circuit like the Half Moon etc etc You'd start out doing their monday and mid week 'nights' and the thing you had to focus on was that these places
needed to 'earn' on these 'off nights' so as long as you could deliver, you could turn the tables somewhat as THEY needed their venue
turning over as much as the bands needed the London gig. We never made any proper money but we got a minimum of petrol exes
because even back then, we took minimum costs into account. Of course, we have preferred not to pay them, but we had to
so getting wise to the way things worked was paramount.
So, even back then... money was already in the equation. For good or bad, it was there.

[topheteatwo]

[quote name='Norm' timestamp='1398266090' post='2432244']
Pound per head gigs are the norm for playing the "name" venues in Bristol. Usually midweek multi band bills of aspiring local bands tagged together into a facebook event. If all 5 acts bring a dozen people it can be a good night & the venue will shift some beer & the bands will get a quid for
each punter who has bought an advance ticket (from the bands, promoter gives 20-30 tickets to each band to sell or return) or walk INS on the night who mention your name at the door.
Promoter wants all unsold tickets returned or will charge bands per ticket for forgetting them!
So get advertising event & promote it & you might get some money to cover petrol but thats about it. You get to play at the "name" venue with stage, lights & big pa & maybe if you bring people & go down well you might get invited back on a better night or to support a touring act there?
We do them occasionally for exposure in amongst paying gigs on our own. Most young bands of nippers seem to use them as a free live rehearsal ime.
Cheers,
Norm
[/quote]

This is another thing that I just can't understand, these tickets things. It happened to me once in Belfast in my 5th gig ever in a venue called The Black Box (quite an arty venue) in quite a buzzing part Belfast.

Long story short, the promoter forgot the mention that the venue was over 18s and the bands were all about 17 including the punters, he made people pay for tickets that the bands held at a staggering £15 for 6 bands no-one had heard of. He caused a small riot in the venue which caused the gig to be cancelled half way through.

While I'm on the story of band promoters, let me share my story of the Belfast legend that is Chris Shaw. Chris Shaw (or Vito as he liked to be called) was a promoter in Belfast that ran from around 2010-2012, we played our first gig for him, actually went well except for him leaving shortly after arriving. Chris did some of the most amazingly stupid mistakes in terms of pay, he lived in Larne (about 15 miles out of Belfast via train) and continually told bands that he couldn't pay them because he had to pay for his train home and, now prepare to laugh, he refused to pay a set of bands because he had "internet fees" to pay and poster design to pay for (he made them in MS paint).

[JamesBass]

It is worth bearing in mind that everything costs. An event I put on cost me £30 for tickets, posters were £64 and website costs came in at £52, that's without taking the venue hire in to account. Most venues don't seem to use in-house/resident promoters anymore. I guess that's free-market capitalism at work there, I digress. But the WedgeWood Rooms in Portsmouth, which is a 550 capacity bar type venue, costs an average of £750 basic rate, that's without door staff as they come as an extra normally. Now the Wedge is a decent venue, it's your typical small-medium venue and at one point all of Portsmouth's best gigs were being held there, as time's gone on, the amount of bands visiting the Wedge has decreased. I guess just purely down to cost! Other places in Portsmouth range from free hire to over £1000.

There is an issue with the local level music scene across the country, though there are obvious better places and obvious worse ones. But the lack of support from people is an issue. I have to admit I don't go out of my way to see local bands play, which is terrible, but often the gigs fall on a week night and I either have band practices of my own or have assignment work for my degree to be doing. The lack of trust, belief and passion is often the killing factors when linked with monetary issues.

Having a list on here, of good venues, good promoters, good bands would help so many people. Getting a nationwide network of promoters, venues and bands could benefit everyone...

[JTUK]

Decent rooms on decent nights round are offered up at £2k for a sat. That is for a 350 capacity and I assume that includes house P.A and lights, staff and security so on the face on it that doesn't sound that bad. We haven't gone into it deeply and the figures don't work for us...or rather it would be such a stressful time getting to break-even figures that we would rather take a flat fee of £750.
So band costs to the venue are around £1100 plus whatever they do for the P.A. We have noticed a downgrade in the P.A provided ( HK instead of EAW ) so I think the venue is taking a short-cut because they think they can plus they are business people and not music
people.
It is good to throw about a few ideas of what the standards appear to be...

We forget that the venues themselves have rent, rates and bills as well...so it is not all about rip-off venues and agents/promoters.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Norm' timestamp='1398266090' post='2432244']
Pound per head gigs are the norm for playing the "name" venues in Bristol. Usually midweek multi band bills of aspiring local bands tagged together into a facebook event. If all 5 acts bring a dozen people it can be a good night & the venue will shift some beer & the bands will get a quid for
each punter who has bought an advance ticket (from the bands, promoter gives 20-30 tickets to each band to sell or return) or walk INS on the night who mention your name at the door.
Promoter wants all unsold tickets returned or will charge bands per ticket for forgetting them!
So get advertising event & promote it & you might get some money to cover petrol but thats about it. You get to play at the "name" venue with stage, lights & big pa & maybe if you bring people & go down well you might get invited back on a better night or to support a touring act there?
We do them occasionally for exposure in amongst paying gigs on our own. Most young bands of nippers seem to use them as a free live rehearsal ime.
Cheers,
Norm
[/quote]

The big problem with these types of gigs is the bands have next to nothing in common other than they all wanted a gig at the venue and were available on the night in question. Consequently the audience for each are generally not interested in the other bands so all that happens is that each one plays to their existing following and that's it. The promoters generally have zero interest in any of the bands and are just pocketing the cash.

This is why my band won't do gigs like this any more. It's far better to be playing with bands of a similar genre whose fans are far more likely to be interested in your music as well. Added to that most of the promoters in the genres we fall into have a genuine love of the music and are putting you on because they like what you do and not because you're just another band they hope will bring an extra 20 bodies through the door.

Edited April 23, 2014 by BigRedX

[topheteatwo]

We have a venue called Voodoo that doesn't ask you for room hire at all, it's simply £80 for a sound man and you can put on whatever want, provided that you make a poster, the room is yours for free, just have to call and ask for a spare date and if you want a weekend, make sure it's far in advance.

Whatever you make at the door, minus the £80 you owe the sound man (who's in house) and the amount you owe to the support acts is yours to keep!