Promoters & Original Band Challenges

[stingraybassman]

Hi All,

I'll try and keep this as concise as possible, and try to keep the ranting to a minimum.

We recently played a show in Manchester (my home town), supporting a band who shall remain unnamed. They rocked up over 1 hour late, and with no apologies casually set up their gear and sound checked. We then faced an argument to be able to soundcheck ourselves and ended up with a very rushed check.

Anyway fast forward to the show, we had a great turnout (70+ at £5 a ticket) and went down really well. It was a difficult gig, sound guy seemed uninterested and we had to just make the best of it. Cue the "headline" band and as our people filtered out the room was left with no more than 20 people (half of them being our fans).

I spoke to the promoter post gig, he had basically been done by the bands agent. He had said they where one of the Uk's top up and coming indie bands, been play listed for BBC introducing etc.......

It leads me to a question, how often do you guys get stitched up like this. We were told if we could guarantee a good turnout we could support a band who would pack the venue out. We essentially ended up playing to a room we filled with our fans, who already know our music. As fun as that is, its always great to appeal to a new audience.

I also tried to think of it from both sides, is the only way to get good gigs as an originals band nowadays to lie about the amount of people you can get to come to see you?

[BigRedX]

Do your research on the venue, promoter and other bands playing.

Make your decision accordingly.

[stingraybassman]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1398265065' post='2432222']
Do your research on the venue, promoter and other bands playing.

Make your decision accordingly.
[/quote]

Sound advice Red, the difficulty being its hard to know if peoples online presence is genuine. From the research we did, it was a no brainer. Good band, good venue. We were actually worried how our music would go down with their fans. Turns out fans didn't need to be a plural.

[waynepunkdude]

Did you have to sell the tickets yourselves?

[stingraybassman]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' timestamp='1398266204' post='2432251']
Did you have to sell the tickets yourselves?
[/quote]

Mixture really, they were well advertised online. We did most of ours in real life though.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1398266508' post='2432260']
Mixture really, they were well advertised online. We did most of ours in real life though.
[/quote]

Don't play those gigs.

[stingraybassman]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' timestamp='1398266549' post='2432262']
Don't play those gigs.
[/quote]

It seems to be the way of a lot of places at the moment. To be honest we have found if you get the tickets in peoples hands early, the turnout seems to be a lot better.

What are the alternatives Wayne?

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1398266694' post='2432264']
It seems to be the way of a lot of places at the moment. To be honest we have found if you get the tickets in peoples hands early, the turnout seems to be a lot better.

What are the alternatives Wayne?
[/quote]

Getting paid to play and have the promoter promote.

[Lozz196]

In an old band of mine we played support to a well known tribute band. We brought along about 40 people, at £8 a ticket. These 40 people also would have been in good company with George Best & Ollie Reed if you know what I mean, so the venue got their money`s worth out of us.

£50 at the end of the night. The explanation was that any more and it would be coming out of the main bands cut. Those 40 people we took over wouldn`t have been in the venue without us.

These things happen, each time they do mark them down accordingly. Depends what we`re all in bands for really, the above scenario may be fine with some, and anger others.

[JTUK]

I think the headline act is to be the ones who sell the most tickets
and you have to give kudos to the bands who can do that... it isn't easy.

That promoter owes you one.... but then again, I would think selling
70 tickets HAS to make you a favourite with thar venue as they know you
came up with the goods and delivered.

There are a couple of bands round here ( covers, ) who can sell upwards of 300 tickets
and no matter what you think of them... that is good going.
One of them, did that in 29 hrs, so any sort of CV like that is pretty valuable to
promoters.
I would think you'd be hearing from them, so you can be a bit more greedy on the deal.

But like all these things... you need to hit your marks ( do what you promised/said ) or you blow it.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' timestamp='1398267106' post='2432273']
Getting paid to play and have the promoter promote.
[/quote]
Wayne, in my experience as a promoter and as a musician, is that the bands get asked by their fan base and can get tickets to them/from them easier. All of my friends who have been fans of some of my bands have ALWAYS brought their ticket via me. As a promoter I've found there aren't many "random" people who want to come see a gig, people need to have an invested like/interest in the bands or the music.

Trust me when I say, I've promoted in all ways possible, but the lay of local live music is that the majority of people who go are friends of the bands. It's rare you get a person with no prior interest in the bands coming to gigs down this way of the world.

[stingraybassman]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1398268495' post='2432291']
Wayne, in my experience as a promoter and as a musician, is that the bands get asked by their fan base and can get tickets to them/from them easier. All of my friends who have been fans of some of my bands have ALWAYS brought their ticket via me. As a promoter I've found there aren't many "random" people who want to come see a gig, people need to have an invested like/interest in the bands or the music.

Trust me when I say, I've promoted in all ways possible, but the lay of local live music is that the majority of people who go are friends of the bands. It's rare you get a person with no prior interest in the bands coming to gigs down this way of the world.
[/quote]

I have to stick up for James here. Unsigned nights with originals bands at dedicated music venues are a hard sell to the general public. I know we will do a better job than most if not all promoters in terms of getting tickets in hands.

[BigRedX]

The problem with the majority of unsigned originals bands nights (as I said in the other thread on this subject) is that they generally benefit no-one except the venue and the promoter. All the 4 or 5 bands playing that night have in common is that they wanted a gig at the venue and they were available on the night in question. Their fans are mostly uninterested in the other bands playing, so bands are unlikely to pick up new followers. Despite what the venue and/or promoter might say it will rarely lead to bigger/better gigs at the same venue.

I suppose as a band you could treat it as practice at playing in front of an audience, if you aren't able to get any other gigs, but in that case it's more important that the band should be asking themselves why they can get any other gigs.

[stingraybassman]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1398327961' post='2432830']
The problem with the majority of unsigned originals bands nights (as I said in the other thread on this subject) is that they generally benefit no-one except the venue and the promoter. All the 4 or 5 bands playing that night have in common is that they wanted a gig at the venue and they were available on the night in question. Their fans are mostly uninterested in the other bands playing, so bands are unlikely to pick up new followers. Despite what the venue and/or promoter might say it will rarely lead to bigger/better gigs at the same venue.

I suppose as a band you could treat it as practice at playing in front of an audience, if you aren't able to get any other gigs, but in that case it's more important that the band should be asking themselves why they can get any other gigs.
[/quote]

As much as promotors can be the devil, it certainly makes sense to work with bigger companies. We have had some amazing support slots in the last few years, a huge part down to the fact we are affiliated with DHP in Notts. The realisation for us was the best avenue in terms of getting more people to hear our music, is to try and get big tour support slots.

Edited April 24, 2014 by stingraybassman

[BigRedX]

[quote name='stingraybassman' timestamp='1398331577' post='2432898']
As much as promotors can be the devil, it certainly makes sense to work with bigger companies. We have had some amazing support slots in the last few years, a huge part down to the fact we are affiliated with DHP in Notts. The realisation for us was the best avenue in terms of getting more people to hear our music, is to try and get big tour support slots.
[/quote]

But there are promoters and promoters. The trick is to find ones with a genuine interest in the music you are playing (as you obviously did), and not deal with the ones who are simply filling vacant gig slots with disparate bands. And support slots with better known bands is most definitely the way to go, but they need to be bands that can attract an audience unlike the one in the OP's post.

[stingraybassman]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1398332055' post='2432903']
But there are promoters and promoters. The trick is to find ones with a genuine interest in the music you are playing (as you obviously did), and not deal with the ones who are simply filling vacant gig slots with disparate bands. And support slots with better known bands is most definitely the way to go, but they need to be bands that can attract an audience unlike the one in the OP's post.
[/quote]

Amen to that

[JamesBass]

I think people just don't value what other bands do, especially if they are their supporting another band that has their best mate in, even more so when someone in the other bands has a reputation as a bit of a dick. Which we all seem to have from other people.

Bands also often disappear during sets or once they've played they go home as do all their fans. It's just not conducive to having a good music scene. The price of drinks in venues can also be ridiculous and people don't want to pay much for drinks when you can get a cheaper drink down the road at the local Wetherspoons.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1398332431' post='2432910']
Bands also often disappear during sets or once they've played they go home as do all their fans. It's just not conducive to having a good music scene. The price of drinks in venues can also be ridiculous and people don't want to pay much for drinks when you can get a cheaper drink down the road at the local Wetherspoons.
[/quote]

IMO a lot of this is down to the fact that too many of these gigs are organised with no thought for the different musical styles of the bands playing. I have a fairly wide range in musical taste and enjoy going to see live music but I won't sit through a whole set by and band whose music does nothing for me, and most people are far less tolerant. That's why genre themed evenings are far better for everyone concerned. If the fans of one band are likely to enjoy the music of the other bands on the bill then they will be likely to stay longer and drink more. Everyone wins. So why don't more promoters do it?

[JTUK]

Some good points.... having a consistant them thru the bill is obvious to bands
and if it isn't obvious to the promoter then they are in the wrong job.
Maybe the promoter is just trying to turn over a buck... and providing they
fulfil their obligations...and get ANY ppl in the venue, then they may survive more than a few dates.
It is total short termism tho', but then do they or can they care..??

As, in all things you need a working relationship that works for both sides but by the same token
these things can't be run on a shoestring. But when they are run on little money, it seems the bands
that are the fall-guys. I still think this is because some bands almost invite that situation, but that is
a broken record here. If all parties came to the conclusion that a combined effort is a better effort,
and if venues didn't have the back-stop option of free bands, then they would have to come up with
a better model. Nobody REALLY wants to pay out if they don't have to..??
But venues really should be more forward thinking as they are the ones with the rent and rates commitment
which needs to be paid come what may. This is where event organisers have a better hand than they think...
as in they can get people to the venue...but this is constantly constantly undermined by acts perfroming free.
You aren't really giving the venue/promoter much of a incentive to pay you if you willingly do it for free.

I know this is pretty simplistic..and the promise of a gig etc etc waters down the resolve etc etc ...but
if councils didn't continually grant licenses for places that were caught out like this, that might help as well..????

And..... by the same token, the acts themselves need to take a look at themselves. Are they worth seeing..??

Oh...and don't get me started on open mic nights...!! These are all versions of a theme
for filling up someones off-nights. Seen many open mics on a fri or sat..??

Edited April 24, 2014 by JTUK

[JamesBass]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1398332924' post='2432919']
IMO a lot of this is down to the fact that too many of these gigs are organised with no thought for the different musical styles of the bands playing. I have a fairly wide range in musical taste and enjoy going to see live music but I won't sit through a whole set by and band whose music does nothing for me, and most people are far less tolerant. That's why genre themed evenings are far better for everyone concerned. If the fans of one band are likely to enjoy the music of the other bands on the bill then they will be likely to stay longer and drink more. Everyone wins. So why don't more promoters do it?
[/quote]

I honestly have NO idea why promoters don't think like that, or even why venues don't think like that. Bands often do, yet we still do the same old gigs with the same old issues of; Folk band on first, rock band, heavy metal band. It just doesn't work well like that! I've been at gigs where my band which were punk were on with the a pop duo?!
[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1398334185' post='2432950']
Some good points.... having a consistant them thru the bill is obvious to bands
and if it isn't obvious to the promoter then they are in the wrong job.
Maybe the promoter is just trying to turn over a buck... and providing they
fulfil their obligations...and get ANY ppl in the venue, then they may survive more than a few dates.
It is total short termism tho', but then do they or can they care..??

As, in all things you need a working relationship that works for both sides but by the same token
these things can't be run on a shoestring. But when they are run on little money, it seems the bands
that are the fall-guys. I still think this is because some bands almost invite that situation, but that is
a broken record here. If all parties came to the conclusion that a combined effort is a better effort,
and if venues didn't have the back-stop option of free bands, then they would have to come up with
a better model. Nobody REALLY wants to pay out if they don't have to..??
But venues really should be more forward thinking as they are the ones with the rent and rates commitment
which needs to be paid come what may. This is where event organisers have a better hand than they think...
as in they can get people to the venue...but this is constantly constantly undermined by acts perfroming free.
You aren't really giving the venue/promoter much of a incentive to pay you if you willingly do it for free.

I know this is pretty simplistic..and the promise of a gig etc etc waters down the resolve etc etc ...but
if councils didn't continually grant licenses for places that were caught out like this, that might help as well..????

And..... by the same token, the acts themselves need to take a look at themselves. Are they worth seeing..??

Oh...and don't get me started on open mic nights...!! These are all versions of a theme
for filling up someones off-nights. Seen many open mics on a fri or sat..??
[/quote]
Exactly, it should be part of having a license. You pay bands a fair rate. Whether that's £50 or £500. It's got to be on a parallel with what you can take for the night. Bands need to accept a responsibility to themselves as well. How and where does the money come from for you to buy new gear when/if you need it? Where does the petrol money come from when you're gigging? How do you fund your strings and things? Where do you get the money from for studio time, rehearsals, merch and CDs? If you want this sort of stuff, you need to fund it somehow and the easiest and best way is for the band to get paid. Some free gigs are ok and good. But too many and you become a whore for the town.

I think also, too many promoters and venues get lazy with finding bands and often use their mates or the band that pulled an ok crowd last time, they don't listen or think about what else is out there. I've been "blacklisted" once by a promoter for saying that I didn't want my band playing with the wrong types of bands.

[JTUK]

Yep...it is a business to most.... all bar a LOT of the bands, who can pretty much make or break the night.
It is also about standards.... and I find that people are willing to pay more for something that tries to hit
one.