HiFi speakers - recent budget delights

[BassBod]

I've always tried to avoid being a HiFi obsessive, as being a musician is really not lucrative enough to support that sort of habit. Overtime I have also come to appreciate that everything has its influence on the sound you hear, so there is little point in the noble quest of "how it was supposed to sound in the recording studio"... never going to happen, unless you were there.

Having said that, I do want my home set up to give a fairly uncoloured view of what I'm listening to. No super hyped bass response or slicing exaggerated treble. I record fairly often for different projects, and I don't want to hear works in progress with anything added or taken away.

A few years ago I bought some used AVI Neutron speakers from EvilBay - a small company in Gloucestershire with a reputation for good quality without daft prices. They were over ten years old, had a few marks from rough handling by the courier but sounded fantastic. Small bookshelf speakers with some authority and a real sense of detail across the upper mids. Unfortunately, one started cutting out after a few weeks (couriers!). I've tracked the problem down to the terminal block, but didn't have the time or interest in pulling it apart.

[attachment=161254:IMG_0760.JPG]

The new version of the Neutron (black, below) was slightly bigger, rear ported but I decided to invest in a new pair to see how it had improved. Same basic tone, but a bit deeper and fuller in overall soundstage. I was really pleased.

Then a friend gave me these 1961 BBC outside broadcast monitors LS3/1.

[attachment=161255:IMG_0703.JPG]

I plugged them in, expecting fuzz and distortion from rotted paper cones and blown tweeters, but no, they sounded remarkable. Realistic, natural and just completely enjoyable. Amazing that 1950's technology could produce such a great sound over 50 years later.

[attachment=161256:IMG_0575.jpg]

A single 15" paper cone, with two early RCA/Celestion HF1300 tweeters and crossover network your Grandad would be proud of. Handwritten labels and pillow stuffed with fibreglass and carefully tied in place with string. A bit of research showed these were the BBC's first attempt at making a full range monitor speaker for the modern broadcast industry - all the Rogers, Spendors Harbeth Kef's etc made from the mid 60's through the 80's and onwards were descended from theses big grey boxes that looked like leftovers from an early Doctor Who set.

TBC

Edited April 26, 2014 by BassBod

[ape]

I'll keeping an eye on this one, I love speakers, keep promising myself some Rogers DB101's when I find some in the right colour and have the spare cash

[BassBod]

Thanks for the interest - I'm doing this in bits, got the kids running around.

Cont..

The old BBC LS3/1 speakers were a revelation - they just sounded so natural. Not just great for their age..but really great. The high frequency output was apparently limited to 12-13khz but it didn't seem to matter. The bass seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Thinking about it, they had very primitive drive units, far less sophisticated materials, no modelling computer software or analysis. But they did have plenty of research time and few of the modern distractions. The only sounds they were considering were speech, piano, orchestral etc Not miked rock bass drum, distorted guitar amps or synths.

The main issue for me was the size - big industrial grey boxes just don't fit in a cottage living room. Maybe in a trendy loft space flat, or a 1960's studio..but not here. They are also 15ohm and something like 25w power handling. It would be easy to kill them with any modern amp. After surviving more than 50 years that would be a real shame.

Next, my Dad lent me a pair of Spendor SP2/3's he was finished with - interesting, as these were firmly in the BBC school of LS3/5A inspired designs, although a fair bit bigger in cabinet size. They are a sort of third or fourth generation descendent of the big grey boxes.

[attachment=161260:IMG_0729.jpg]

They are wonderful, but have a significant draw back for me. All the mid/treble detail is there, with incredible articulation and accuracy. They are very well suited to critical listening and leave nothing to the imagination. However, the lower end response is lacking. The low end is there, but muted and unexciting. Compared to the early BBC design they are a bit dull and stiff.

So, after a few weeks swapping about I'm back to the modern AVI Neutrons - its been an interesting experience, I've learned a bit about how important the early work of the BBC was to the audio industry and gained an appreciation of just how good the full range speakers could be. Its also odd that the LS3/5A was consistently sold as "The BBC Monitor" to the domestic market - when the BBC intended it as a speaker for very confined spaces (broadcast unit vans and local radio control rooms). The real full range monitor concept was way too big to be sold to any but the truly dedicated!

The small AVI Neutrons combine a lot of the performance of the old big speakers - full range, detailed and accurate, but also convey the enjoyment of the music. I had a look at their current range recently, and noticed they have now moved on to active only systems of powered speakers, combining DACs and power amps within the cabinets. The BBC had a powered monitor design in the 1950's using a Parmeko cabinet (big grey box) with a shelf for a small valve amp. Nothing's ever that new.....

[attachment=161323:200910122243432313.jpg]

Edited April 26, 2014 by BassBod

[Horizontalste]

I too am a bit of a speaker perv, I have had these for about twelve years and love them. Not expensive or boutique but a very good clean sounding speaker, especially on stands & spikes.

[BassBod]

Give us a clue - I need a badge (a good sign, I believe) to identify...

[Ou7shined]

[left]Mordant Short[/left]

[Horizontalste]

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1398544987' post='2435186']
[left]Mordant Short[/left]
[/quote]

Bingo

A friend of mine worked in one of the hi-fi shops in town & got them at cost price with a Cambridge Audio amp that I also still have.

[Horizontalste]

On a side note, when I was a teenager back in the nineties my dad's transport company used to bring cabs back from Germany for KEF. They went to a small unit in Kent if I remember correctly, anyway, I remember hearing a set of their floor standers there and being totally blown away. Far better sounding than my beloved pioneer separates that I had at the time.

[Dingus]

AVI are a fantastic little company with a very refreshing no-nonsense approach to audio, and everything they make is built to a very high standard of quality. Those Neutrons are superb speakers, some of the best of their kind in that price range, and they sound even better if you partner them with a suitable subwoofer to extend the bottom end.

It's a shame AVI dont make conventional separates systems any more. The components they were turning out about ten years ago sounded extraordinarily good and sold well internationally, but the people who run the company have decided that computer-based audio is the way of the future, and have geared all their current products towards that market. They may well be right.

[BassBod]

Yes, I think they are probably right. It does seem daft to have music pegged at CD quality, when downloading allows an immediate higher platform and removes the waste of physical distribution.

Its a shame for me that I couldn't afford the sub woofer/power amp/Dac they made to go with the Neutrons. Its out of production now, although they do pop up on EvilBay. The little Neutrons apparantly don't do much below 100HZ but I really don't notice any lack of depth in a small living room. The Audiolab amp I use has a gentle bass boost that I sometimes use for low level listening, but I'm sure the sub unit would be a different experience.

[ShergoldSnickers]

Still got a pair of Epos ES14s. They were designed by Robin Marshall who also designed speakers for Mordaunt Short. The side panels are connected internally by a rod that is tensioned to pull the panels toward each other, to increase the rigidity and resonant frequency. The drive units are mechanically tuned and matched with regard to roll-off points, and require only a single capacitor between the treble driver and bass/mid unit.

I ended up using a pair for monitoring in a friend's commercial recording studio, and after contacting Robin Marshall because we were slightly worried about the amount of abuse the drivers could take, he sent some for us to destruct.

It took the full power of an Alesis HR16 drum machine, all possible cymbals and hi-hats going, to blow the aluminium domed tweeter. It was wired directly across the amplifier output, and it took the full output of the mixing desk and power amp to break it, It wasn't the coil that went — the aluminium dome shattered! The sound in the main recording room was unbearably loud before it went.

There's an interview with Robin Marshall, where he mentions BBC speaker designs as well as the ES14, here:

http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/567/index.html

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Horizontalste' timestamp='1398545841' post='2435202']
Bingo

A friend of mine worked in one of the hi-fi shops in town & got them at cost price with a Cambridge Audio amp that I also still have.
[/quote]

I was a test engineer at Cambridge Audio whilst they were in Byfleet, testing and calibrating the P60 model and R50 speakers. Great amps, and I have never heard better speakers.

[yorks5stringer]

Speaking of Spendors, I have a very nice new pair for sale here at a great price....http://basschat.co.uk/topic/230624-spendor-sa1-bookshelf-speakers-final-price-l700-this-week-and-next/ . Make me an offer!

[Horizontalste]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1398553584' post='2435294']


I was a test engineer at Cambridge Audio whilst they were in Byfleet, testing and calibrating the P60 model and R50 speakers. Great amps, and I have never heard better speakers.
[/quote]

What a cool job.
My amp is an old A5, it's not very powerful but it works well with the Mordaunt Short's, pretty bombproof too although I did have to change the little glass fuse inside once. Could never figure out why it blew.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Horizontalste' timestamp='1398589893' post='2435451']
What a cool job.
My amp is an old A5, it's not very powerful but it works well with the Mordaunt Short's, pretty bombproof too although I did have to change the little glass fuse inside once. Could never figure out why it blew.
[/quote]

One possible (probable..?) cause would be old age..! If a fuse has been giving loyal service for several decades, it's not unusual for one to decide to retire. As long as the replacement (of the same rating and category...) hold up, there's nothing to worry about. If the replacement blows too, it's time for an investigation by a competent technician, though.
A5, an old amp..? Why, that's much later than my old P60s..! Nice amp, though.

[Linus27]

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1398551029' post='2435268']
Yes, I think they are probably right. It does seem daft to have music pegged at CD quality, when downloading allows an immediate higher platform and removes the waste of physical distribution.

[/quote]

Ok, this has got me interested. What format is available as a download that is higher quality than CD and what media player would I use to play it? I used to go to the various HiFi shows with my dad and it was always NAD separates and Monitor Audio speakers that sounded the best. My current setup is NAD amp an CD with Eltax bookshelf speakers. Not heard anything better. If there is better format than CD now then I would be interested. I believe mp3's are compressed to buggery.

[Linus27]

Ok, just read about this on the below link.

http://www.whathifi.com/news/high-resolution-audio-everything-you-need-to-know

[Roland Rock]

I've just completed my HiFi, choosing to go down the 'old but good and cheap from eBay' route.
-Meridian 207 CDTransport/DAC/Preamp
-Quad 306 power amp
-Linn Kan speakers

The Meridian comes with the superb old school massive metal remote.

I'm loving this combination, all for less than £400

Edited April 27, 2014 by Roland Rock

[ape]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1398595222' post='2435537']
I've just completed my HiFi, choosing to go down the 'old but good and cheap from eBay' route.
-Meridian 207 CDTransport/DAC/Preamp
-Quad 306 power amp
-Linn Kan speakers

The Meridian comes with the superb old school massive metal remote.

I'm loving this combination, all for less than £400
[/quote]

Crikey you did alright there, I managed to get a pair of cheapy Mordaunt shorts for a fiver from a charity shop and have got to say am fairly impressed, also got hold of a pair of old monitor audio's cheap a little while ago from cash converters that I passed on to my brother, great sound for such little boxes. I think I want some floor standers for my next speakers though

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Linus27' timestamp='1398594057' post='2435519']
... I used to go to the various HiFi shows with my dad and it was always [b]NAD separates and Monitor Audio speakers that sounded the best.[/b] My current setup is NAD amp an CD with Eltax bookshelf speakers. Not heard anything better. ....
[/quote]

Same-ish here.
NAD amp and CD, Yamaha sound processor (to open 2 channel to 5.1 - frickin awesome job too), Castle rears and sub, AE floor fronts and Tannoy centre. I'm auditioning some KEFs for my front floors just now but am erring toward keeping the AEs despite them being the cheaper set.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1398513737' post='2434848']
Then a friend gave me these 1961 BBC outside broadcast monitors LS3/1.


[/quote]

BBC Engineering used to be world class, both on the audio and video side of things, and highly respected. Such a shame that their R&D was gradually reduced over the years. I'm not sure of the current situation but it wouldn't surprise me if they don't do any R&D at all these days and just buy everything in. Certainly their recent IT systems development fiasco has not exactly enhanced their technology reputation. Such a shame.


[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1398591687' post='2435490']
One possible (probable..?) cause would be old age..! If a fuse has been giving loyal service for several decades, it's not unusual for one to decide to retire. As long as the replacement (of the same rating and category...) hold up, there's nothing to worry about. If the replacement blows too, it's time for an investigation by a competent technician, though.
[/quote]

Yep, a blown fuse is nothing to worry about really, just replace it with the same type. It's when the replacement blows immediately that the warning bells should start sounding.

[Dingus]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' timestamp='1398552548' post='2435289']
Still got a pair of Epos ES14s. They were designed by Robin Marshall who also designed speakers for Mordaunt Short. The side panels are connected internally by a rod that is tensioned to pull the panels toward each other, to increase the rigidity and resonant frequency. The drive units are mechanically tuned and matched with regard to roll-off points, and require only a single capacitor between the treble driver and bass/mid unit.

I ended up using a pair for monitoring in a friend's commercial recording studio, and after contacting Robin Marshall because we were slightly worried about the amount of abuse the drivers could take, he sent some for us to destruct.

It took the full power of an Alesis HR16 drum machine, all possible cymbals and hi-hats going, to blow the aluminium domed tweeter. It was wired directly across the amplifier output, and it took the full output of the mixing desk and power amp to break it, It wasn't the coil that went — the aluminium dome shattered! The sound in the main recording room was unbearably loud before it went.

There's an interview with Robin Marshall, where he mentions BBC speaker designs as well as the ES14, here:

[url="http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/567/index.html"]http://www.stereophi.../567/index.html[/url]
[/quote]

Epos ES14 - one of the best hifi speakers ever. Really fabulous design. Still sound great, especially with Naim amps.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1398554378' post='2435297']
Speaking of Spendors, I have a very nice new pair for sale here at a great price....http://basschat.co.uk/topic/230624-spendor-sa1-bookshelf-speakers-final-price-l700-this-week-and-next/ . Make me an offer!
[/quote]

Recent Spendor speakers such as yours are amazing. The company was bought by the people who used to own Audiolab after they sold out , and they have revamped the Spendor's designs to make them competitive with the very best speakers on the market. Another classy British speaker manufacturer with real pedigree.

[Dingus]

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1398551029' post='2435268']
Yes, I think they are probably right. It does seem daft to have music pegged at CD quality, when downloading allows an immediate higher platform and removes the waste of physical distribution.

Its a shame for me that I couldn't afford the sub woofer/power amp/Dac they made to go with the Neutrons. Its out of production now, although they do pop up on EvilBay. The little Neutrons apparantly don't do much below 100HZ but I really don't notice any lack of depth in a small living room. The Audiolab amp I use has a gentle bass boost that I sometimes use for low level listening, but I'm sure the sub unit would be a different experience.
[/quote]

If you see a used REL sub at a reasonable price, such a the little one from a few years ago called the Quake, then they will compliment the AVI's very nicely and fill out the sound. REL subs work particularly well for two channel audio.

[BassBod]

Thanks for that - I might have a look around and see. The attraction of the AVI unit was that it contained three powerful amps and a DAC and a few digital inputs, which means I could lose few boxes (amp and DAC) and gain some performance improvements all safe in the knowledge that it was designed to work together. The fact I never got around to it/had the money to spend tells me that I probably don't need it.

Strangely, it was always the bigger Spendors that felt lacking in the lows...despite being at least three times bigger than the Neutrons.