icastle Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 [quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1398897942' post='2438941'] How do you know I'm not? [/quote] I don't, that's why I asked the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1398898252' post='2438942'] He says he's updated the phone number on his website. [/quote] I checked - the number has been updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1398898333' post='2438944'] I don't, that's why I asked the question. [/quote] No, you were trying to escalate as opposed to moderate. I agree with most of the posts suggesting that this should be left alone, despite the poor response in the original thread, but not for the first time IMO your unhelpful intervention seems to be aimed at pushing things along as opposed to diffusing or resolving them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 [quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1398898735' post='2438950'] No, you were trying to escalate as opposed to moderate. I agree with most of the posts suggesting that this should be left alone, despite the poor response in the original thread, but not for the first timeIMO your unhelpful intervention seems to be aimed at pushing things along as opposed to diffusing or resolving them [/quote] So in other words, neither of us are actually waiting for a bass but both of us want to see people who are waiting get theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1398899397' post='2438956'] So in other words, neither of us are actually waiting for a bass but both of us want to see people who are waiting get theirs. [/quote] That's backtracking to the previous thread which you closed, I started this thread to question your closing it and to speculate that doing so my be counterproductive to everyone involved. As Nigel suggested, given time there's a tendency towards organic moderation here that is often undermined by the synthetic version. People are simply going to stop posting if moderation = closure, moderation should equal presenting a balanced perspective, then perhaps a gentle warning, and then closure. As I said, IMO your intervention wasn't helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I wonder how some of you do not have better things to do than this! Notice that the participation of Rob or any of the other members affected by this situation is minimal? The situation is not ideal to say the least and it looks like through his personal problems he has made a bit of a hash of the business, but from everything that has been said things are on the up. How about a discussion such as this be considered in another 6 months time? If they are in the 'next step' as they say, then by this time everyone could have their completed bass. If they don't, then another discussion (prompted by an orderer or [i]genuine[/i] prospective orderer) may be warranted. Until then, perhaps worry about other things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Beedster - if you have an issue with moderation then you really need to take it to PM as per the T&Cs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1398900223' post='2438962'] I wonder how some of you do not have better things to do than this! Notice that the participation of Rob or any of the other members affected by this situation is minimal? The situation is not ideal to say the least and it looks like through his personal problems he has made a bit of a hash of the business, but from everything that has been said things are on the up. How about a discussion such as this be considered in another 6 months time? If they are in the 'next step' as they say, then by this time everyone could have their completed bass. If they don't, then another discussion (prompted by an orderer or [i]genuine[/i] prospective orderer) may be warranted. Until then, perhaps worry about other things? [/quote] It's a bass forum on which about 90% of non OT threads relate to buying, selling or talking about new bass gear, what topics of conversation are you expecting...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1398900223' post='2438962'] I wonder how some of you do not have better things to do than this! Notice that the participation of Rob or any of the other members affected by this situation is minimal? The situation is not ideal to say the least and it looks like through his personal problems he has made a bit of a hash of the business, but from everything that has been said things are on the up. How about a discussion such as this be considered in another 6 months time? If they are in the 'next step' as they say, then by this time everyone could have their completed bass. If they don't, then another discussion (prompted by an orderer or [i]genuine[/i] prospective orderer) may be warranted. Until then, perhaps worry about other things? [/quote] Im with Beedster. What happens in 6 months when more BC members have put money into buying a Letts because when doing their research, they haven't had the full picture of how the level of service might affect them because the thread was closed? Or, is it fair to leave the thread in a position where it is only members of the business that have had anything encouraging or positive to say? What if members who were happy and wanted to share their experiences now can't because it's been locked? Personally, I think Robs involvement has been very important. By relaying facts objectively about the level of service, he has given a fair review of the company and it's product by which the rest of us can make a decision as to whether that is something we would want to put our money into and can use to balance out the largely positive promises of a 'next level' service promised by the company. If Letts basses have indeed improved and are indeed in the process of finishing all the orders, the existing customers have no way to balance the argument and share their views or take back their previous comments IF they receive this 'new level' of service either. Once again, a few OTT comments have prompted an OTT reaction. Surely moderation/deletion of individual unhelpful or petty comments is a better solution for the BC community. Edited May 1, 2014 by skej21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) As some of you are aware, I have been affected by these issues personally having had an outstanding order for over a year. My bass was not part of any basschat competition deal and was ordered direct. Closing the original thread (along with closing this one soon I'd imagine) leaves no avenue for me to comment on what I feel is a relevent subject for many on BC. I'm sure people can make up their own minds objectivly when presented with the facts and my negative feedback is not going to make everyone who reads it steer clear of a future order, but it's important that people are aware of any issues. I have been civil with my posts and not made any personal attacks on Jon or any of his employees. Why are we censoring negative comments? I'd be happy to provide proof of everything I have posted to the moderating team if they required this... Edited May 1, 2014 by CamdenRob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UglyDog Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1398926506' post='2439004'] Closing the original thread (along with closing this one soon I'd imagine) leaves no avenue for me to comment on what I feel is a relevent subject for many on BC. [/quote] AFAIK there is still at least one Letts thread running in the Affiliates section. The other thread here was just starting to look like a man in the stocks being pelted with rotten fruit. The right decision was made IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1398896834' post='2438919'] Which is exactly why I closed it down. What possible good can come out of a bunch of people, most of whom aren't even waiting on a bass to keep stating the bleeding obvious? It's already a matter of record that some people have had problems and are unhappy, it's a matter of record that one of Jon's employees made a mistake. It's just coming across as petty now. [/quote] When a "bunch of people" who "keep stating the bleeding obvious" are "coming across as petty now" in your mind, then you're following one notion amongst many possible notions. Whilst that notion certainly might be correct, I for one hold another notion, which is that caring, intelligent people tried to create an effect as quickly and effectively as possible for the sole purpose of helping Jon Letts to make wise decisions, extremely quickly. I see NO negative intent towards Lettsbasses at all, and certainly no pettiness. All I see is people who care enough to use their time to try and steer this in a positive direction (yes: positive!) It's only sad that Jon would choose to first follow the thread intensively before disappearing altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1398927335' post='2439014'] AFAIK there is still at least one Letts thread running in the Affiliates section. The other thread here was just starting to look like a man in the stocks being pelted with rotten fruit. The right decision was made IMHO. [/quote] Totally agree. Whilst I agree that it is only right and proper to share concerns and alert fellow BC members to the situation you only need a few comments to make the point. The endless and repetitive negative comments do little to alleviate the situation - a bit like continuing to hammer home the point when the nail has long since disappeared. Letts have personal issues - OK, but they are now a company with all their details available through Comany's House. Deal direct with the company, get things in writing, involve a solicitor in necessary but continually adding comments to a thread is doing nothing whatsoever to find some resolution to the problem. BC is a great forum for alerting members' to both good and bad companies and products. Letts now have a long way to go to repair their reputation and, obviously, many BC'ers will not be ordering a bass from them in the foreseeable future, which may be quite a good thing allowing Letts to get on with their back orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Guys, the previous thread was closed due to it veering incredibly close to bullying towards Brent. The post above [quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The other thread here was just starting to look like a man in the stocks being pelted with rotten fruit[/font][/color][/quote] is exactly how it made me feel too. While we like "organic moderation" we sometimes have to make a gut call as moderators. We understand that you might not agree with the decision being made but please remember that the decision is always made with the best of intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) Surely a feedback thread in the feedback forum with feedback from people with actual experiences would be a far more appropriate way of going about it? That thread was in the wrong place and while individual posts might not have been petty, the cumulative effect started coming across more and more that way. It was looking like a witch hunt with random people coming by to put the boot in. From what I could see they aren't actually taking orders and won't be until they in a better position to do so, which I would assume would be indicated to us by people in a feedback thread telling us that they have received their basses and like them. So claiming that people might be putting in orders in the near future before the company is ready to fulfil those orders, is a poor excuse. Edit: There's no way this post took ten minutes to type! But the last two posts weren't there when I started, and now I look like I just parroting them. Edited May 1, 2014 by KingBollock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) [quote name='charic' timestamp='1398930067' post='2439044'] Guys, the previous thread was closed due to it veering incredibly close to bullying towards Brent.[/quote] There are loads of threads on here where someone makes a silly or crass comment and gets stick for it. Are they all to be closed down? This could be seen as setting a dangerous precedent. As others have said, some sort of warning would have been a more appropriate first response from the mods. Edited May 1, 2014 by Conan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1398931164' post='2439054'] As others have said, some sort of warning would have been a more appropriate first response from the mods. [/quote] Maybe, like I said though gut calls have to be made sometimes. One was made this time and I personally see benefit in re-opening that thread as it served it's original purpose (to get contact details for Jon). On top of that we also got an explanation as well as a guesstimate delivery date (all outstanding orders will be delivered before the new business model goes live, which IIRC was dated as June). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1398931866' post='2439062'] Maybe, like I said though gut calls have to be made sometimes. One was made this time and I personally see benefit in re-opening that thread as it served it's original purpose (to get contact details for Jon). On top of that we also got an explanation as well as a guesstimate delivery date (all outstanding orders will be delivered before the new business model goes live, which IIRC was dated as June). [/quote] Fair enough. And yes, the thread in question had a very specific subject - to get contact details. It could be argued that once it had achieved this goal then its value became lessened... but (like many threads) it went off in its own direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudi8 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 as one that ordered lettsbass a year ago and the body was carved only yesterday,i am disappointed and angry about how things turned, but i can see in the last week more mails and answering from jon and brent, so i think we should hold our breath a little longer and see that things get better, i do believe jon figured the message from everyone and he will try his best to get back on the horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrammeFriday Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) [quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1398928669' post='2439030'] When a "bunch of people" who "keep stating the bleeding obvious" are "coming across as petty now" in your mind, then you're following one notion amongst many possible notions. Whilst that notion certainly might be correct, I for one hold another notion, which is that caring, intelligent people tried to create an effect as quickly and effectively as possible for the sole purpose of helping Jon Letts to make wise decisions, extremely quickly. I see NO negative intent towards Lettsbasses at all, and certainly no pettiness. All I see is people who care enough to use their time to try and steer this in a positive direction (yes: positive!) It's only sad that Jon would choose to first follow the thread intensively before disappearing altogether. [/quote] +1000. Exactly. Many thanks for this, BassTractor. I very much doubt whether any contributor to the original thread had logged on to it in order to put Jon Letts in the stocks and pelt rotten fruit at him. On the contrary, I clicked on this thread because I really like his basses (to me they look and sound like steampunk Stingrays - brilliant!), and had been seriously thinking about putting in an order of my own. On seeing the title of the thread, my first thought was "Oh no, he hasn't gone out of business, has he? That would be terrible", so clearly my interest was one of supportive concern, not any desire to put the boot in. Secondly, is it really true to say that Mr Letts was put in the stocks and pelted with slimy vegetation in the original thread? Looking at it again, I cannot see a single post that could be described as "OTT" or "petty" being aimed in his direction. What I do see is a series of forthright but clearly constructive comments, all of which are attempting to give Mr Letts advice on how to treat his customers and thus grow his business successfully - and usually leavened with genuine expressions of concern about his family situation and best wishes for the future. If anyone was in the stocks it was Brent, and if this was perceived as "veering incredibly close to bullying", as charic puts it, then I'm sorry about that. But you have to ask yourself why BCers reacted so negatively to Brent. (well, five negative comments, to be exact.) I initially had absolutely no intention of posting to this thread - my initial reaction was: Oh dear, this is just a sad situation on all sides - Letts and his family have had a really rough ride in recent years, and CamdenRob, Ash and others have no idea when they will ever receive the basses they have paid for. Big mess - steer well clear. I even resisted the temptation to post a comment after reading Brent's first response, even though I found it astonishingly inappropriate and unsympathetic. What did it for me was his 'apology' to CamdenRob, which in effect attempted to lay some blame at his door for failing to take his original message "with a pinch of salt". I agree with Scooby's point that "Whilst ... it is only right and proper to share concerns and alert fellow BC members to the situation you only need a few comments to make the point". Indeed, there were only 5 negative responses to Brent's posts, spread out over one evening. Hardly "endless and repetitive"! And although I have reservations about the thread getting locked down, I also think that the mod stepped in to say "OK, enough already" at about the right point. Delaying any further could have seen it descend into a lynching, as various people here have suggested. But I also think that it shouldnt have been any [i]fewer [/i]negative replies, either. If just one person posts a negative response, it is all to easy to dismiss that person as a whinger. But if 5 people - including neutral observers with no personal stake in the issue - tell you that you are out of order and that this is exactly how not to talk to your customers, then maybe you are going to listen up and take note - and maybe rescue your business into the bargain. Perhaps this is a case where 'Like' and 'Dislike' thumbs up/thumbs down clickable icons for posts, like on YouTube and Facebook, would have been useful? Edited May 1, 2014 by GrammeFriday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1398930067' post='2439044'] Guys, the previous thread was closed due to it veering incredibly close to bullying towards Brent. The post above [/quote] I can't help thinking the Brent rather brought that upon himself, and as the apparent point of contact for the customers with problems, he adopted an extremely poor approach. However, one justification for the thread remaining open would have been to allow him to pop back this morning and say "Guys, really sorry, I'd had avery long day.... Anyway, please feel free to call me today" etc. This is a far better outcome for everyone, and in this manner, the forum moderates itself. If it had escalated, then a warning and then a closure. I think it was an important thread for the community, for the members directly effected, and for the company/individuals at the centre of it. [quote name='charic' timestamp='1398930067' post='2439044'] ... the decision is always made with the best of intentions. [/quote] IMO a consistent moderation process should work alongside the best of intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1398935396' post='2439109'] I can't help thinking the Brent rather brought that upon himself, and as the apparent point of contact for the customers with problems, he adopted an extremely poor approach. However, one justification for the thread remaining open would have been to allow him to pop back this morning and say "Guys, really sorry, I'd had avery long day.... Anyway, please feel free to call me today" etc. This is a far better outcome for everyone, and in this manner, the forum moderates itself. If it had escalated, then a warning and then a closure. I think it was an important thread for the community, for the members directly effected, and for the company/individuals at the centre of it. IMO a consistent moderation process should work alongside the best of intentions. [/quote] I agree he brought it on himself to be honest with you and was more than a little shocked initially with the wording of the post from Brent... I agree with you RE. consistency too and I fully support the forum self moderating. In this case though I believe the lock was justified and myself and many of the other moderators stand by the decision made in this situation. I'm not saying that a gentle warning wouldn't have worked however it would have needed monitoring and as it was 10:30 at night the thread could have got out of hand before we got back around to it in the morning. With regards to locked threads in general, if you don't agree with the lock then feel free to either PM a forum moderator or report the thread explaining why you don't believe it should have been locked and more importantly why it should be unlocked if that's the resolution that you're after. Is unlocking the thread the resolution we are after here? If so I am happy to discuss this with the moderating team if you can offer your reasoning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) [quote name='charic' timestamp='1398930067' post='2439044'] Guys, the previous thread was closed due to it veering incredibly close to bullying towards Brent. [/quote] I have no real problem with the thread being closed, even though, as Beedster said, it cut off Brent or Jon from getting back with a better effort. However, I think the thread was closed not because it was veering into a direction, in which case a mod could simply say that the thread is closed due to veering or possible future posts, but because of a perception that the written comments were already bullying. (As said previously, I don't think that that was the case.) [quote name='charic' timestamp='1398930067' post='2439044'] While we like "organic moderation" we sometimes have to make a gut call as moderators. We understand that you might not agree with the decision being made but please remember that the decision is always made with the best of intentions. [/quote] [b]Appreciated and supported![/b] That said, also Jon Letts has the best of intentions, as have Shockwave, CamdenRob and Dudi (the ones who had ordered), [b]as well as[/b] the people commenting in that closed thread. Personally, I try to understand where mods are coming from (I don't always succeed though) and try to be loyal to what decisions the BC team comes up with. It's not my forum, and not my rules. It would surprise me if not most people on here have that same respect - - of course given that we all have our reference frames and our crosses to bear. [quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1398935207' post='2439106'] If just one person posts a negative response, it is all to easy to dismiss that person as a whinger. But if 5 people - including neutral observers with no personal stake in the issue - tell you that you are out of order and that this is exactly how not to talk to your customers, then maybe you are going to listen up and take note - and maybe rescue your business into the bargain. [/quote] A nail. A head. BANG! Edit: Written "before" Charic's last post. Edited May 1, 2014 by BassTractor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 [quote name='charic' timestamp='1398937343' post='2439132'] Is unlocking the thread the resolution we are after here? If so I am happy to discuss this with the moderating team if you can offer your reasoning [/quote] I believe that reopening the thread with a clear statement from a mod about the type of discussion permitted - which should focus on the original issue (which let's face it was not simply a request for a phone number), and allow an indication of the degree to which that issue has been, or is being resolved - would set a good precedent and allow a reasoned and balanced resolution. It might of course make sense in doing so to move it to the feedback forum and personally I would see no issue with the comments regarding Brett - and perhaps from Brett - being removed. As was pointed out above, I doubt Letts would be very happy that anyone searching for their products/services might come across that thread given how it was sitting when it was closed. Furthermore, with that thread closed in that manner another will in due course pop up - that's the way here - and likely the same areas will be gone over again requiring the same responses from those involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Ok, fair points well made I'll present it to the mod team and post back here when we've come to a resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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