Guitarists, what they don't learn.

[thefruitfarmer]

I have been working with our new guitarist to get the indie rock and the more skiffle/rockabilly/country stuff up to speed. I think the problem is not so much that there is something not right with the amp or pedal sound (although that does make a difference) it is the way he is playing it.....

For the last few weeks I have been trying to work out what it is, the chords are right and in the right place, it just sounds "wrong" somehow. In fairness, he is getting better and working at it.

I am now thinking that the issue is one lots of guitarists probably have. I suspect he has mainly practiced lead chops, more interesting picking and the slightly more flowery rhythm playing. What he has trouble doing is playing a solid rhythm guitar part.....something that is dead easy to sing over or will make my bass chops sound better...

Same sort of thing as the previous guitard. I need to teach him about pulse, accurate timing, and the need for stamina too. The kind of things bass players and drummers have to do but guitarist can sometimes avoid. I want to get him to the point where he is actually providing the groove, rather than just doing something over the bass and drums groove...

Kid Gloves though....

Must be a really hard job being a good professional teacher.

I want him to up his game and I know he has got the technique, he just needs to tighten up the rhythm playing really. He can keep time but I think it does reach a point after maybe 8 bars where he needs a reference point.

Quite hard to tell someone this, I have to work out what I think he needs to do (and I get that wrong sometimes) and then convince him that he needs to do it without shrinking his ego in the process.


Anyone know what I am talking about here and any tips as to deal with it?

[discreet]

[quote name='thefruitfarmer' timestamp='1399028128' post='2440107']
Quite hard to tell someone this, I have to work out what I think he needs to do (and I get that wrong sometimes) and then convince him that he needs to do it without shrinking his ego in the process.
[/quote]

This thread should be called 'Everyone, what they don't learn'. If you need to be telling someone what to play then everything takes about ten times longer than it needs to - even assuming that you're right about it. They will find it difficult, while resenting you for it. You can say 'less is more' all day and everyone will agree with you, but few are actually able to deliver on it.

I found that if a song is too busy (for example), instead of telling someone else to play less it's often a good idea to lead by example and play less yourself. The penny drops eventually... and if everyone can do it, the band magically improves by about 100%. YMMV.

Edited May 2, 2014 by discreet

[thefruitfarmer]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1399029319' post='2440131']

This thread should be called 'Everyone, what they don't learn'. If you need to be telling someone what to play then everything takes about ten times longer than it needs to - even assuming that you're right about it. They will find it difficult, while resenting you for it. You can say 'less is more' all day and everyone will agree with you, but few are actually able to deliver on it.

I found that if a song is too busy (for example), instead of telling someone else to play less it's often a good idea to lead by example and play less yourself. The penny drops eventually... and if everyone can do it, the band magically improves by about 100%. YMMV.

[/quote]

:-)

Yes, I am trying to avoid telling him exactly what to play, then he would play like me and I want him to play like him, just tighter really.

Like you say people may agree and appear to understand but won't actually deliver the goods.

There is a difference between "posing and being" and the problem is that you may not know the being until you have done it, it is something experienced as well as something understood.

[Lozz196]

Yep, the Malcolm Young Technique of keeping it tight and simple is one that is overlooked by many, and not just on guitar.

[discreet]

[quote name='thefruitfarmer' timestamp='1399030126' post='2440146']
Yes, I am trying to avoid telling him exactly what to play, then he would play like me and I want him to play like him, just tighter really.
[/quote]

Hmm, yes. Try shouting, 'FOR GOD'S SAKE GET IT RIGHT!! WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU PLAYING AT!!??'
I find this patient 'softly, softly' approach works wonders.

[JapanAxe]

IMO rhythm guitar is the noble art compared to lead playing. Danny Kortchmar once said he could teach his grandmother to play lead guitar! Many guitarist never learn to play rhythm satisfactorily.

Assuming you are playing covers, it is a good discipline for a guitarist to listen closely to what is being played on the original recording, and to try to transcribe it as accurately as possible - it helps if you can read and write music notation of course. Pay attention to chord voicing, accents, muted strums, syncopation (playing across beats) and anticipation (playing across bar lines or chord changes), and [u]rests[/u]. This can become a lot harder if you have to sing too!

Without wishing to embarrass anyone, perhaps you could record your next rehearsal and post a clip in this thread?

[Mykesbass]

Sorry if this is too obvious, but have you given him a whole stack of relevant music to listen to?

Partly beaten to it by JapanAxe!

Edited May 2, 2014 by Mykesbass

[discreet]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1399030729' post='2440161']
Without wishing to embarrass anyone, perhaps you could record your next rehearsal and post a clip in this thread?
[/quote]

[size=4]Might be more useful to record a rehearsal (if the OP doesn't already) and play it to the guitarist. It's quite possible he's not hearing what he's playing as you do - it's like recording your own voice - 'do I really sound like that?' It might be all he needs to shape up a bit.[/size]

Edited May 2, 2014 by discreet

[Bassman Steve]

I think the Troggs demonstrate a rather more robust way of dealing with this on their 'tape'. :-)

[discreet]

[quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1399033186' post='2440225']
I think the Troggs demonstrate a rather more robust way of dealing with this on their 'tape'. :-)
[/quote]

It's hilarious - particularly with the Gloucestershire accents.

[b]NSFW - EXTREME PROFANITY - DO NOT LISTEN IF YOU'RE LIKELY TO BE OFFENDED!![/b]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrXfK9Osmvs

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1399030161' post='2440148']
Yep, the Malcolm Young Technique of keeping it tight and simple is one that is overlooked by many, and not just on guitar.
[/quote]

Wouldn't necessarily call Malcolm's playing simple. He often uses inversions and different chords voicings. It's one of the reasons there are so many bands doing bad AC/DC covers.


[size=2]edited due to typo's. I'm tired.[/size]

Edited May 2, 2014 by MacDaddy

[thefruitfarmer]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1399030520' post='2440154']
Hmm, yes. Try shouting, 'FOR GOD'S SAKE GET IT RIGHT!! WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU PLAYING AT!!??'
I find this patient 'softly, softly' approach works wonders.
[/quote]

That is the drummer's role, I am the "good cop".

All good stuff, thanks to all.

He is not listening to enough of the type of music.

MIght be worth recording him at some point, I have done that before with home recording and mixed the track to show clearly that one particular part needed playing again. Sometimes people assume the problem is with the recording rather than their playing though !

What did seem to work was getting him to play with the left hand dampening the strings for a section so he was playing the guitar more like a percussion instrument, then he could hear himself drifting away from the pulse.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='thefruitfarmer' timestamp='1399034031' post='2440244']
...

He is not listening to enough of the type of music.

...

What did seem to work was getting him to play with the left hand dampening the strings for a section so he was playing the guitar more like a percussion instrument, then he could hear himself drifting away from the pulse.
[/quote]

Sounds like he is not listening to the rest of you while he is playing. He may be a victim of the sausage-machine fallacy (bear with me!) i.e. the assumption that if you put all the musical parts into the performance, the song will automatically emerge (like sausages from a machine - see what I dod there?). No, we all need to listen, making micro-adjustments to timing as necessary.

[thefruitfarmer]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1399034391' post='2440252']

sausage-machine fallacy

[/quote]

[Coilte]

Interesting thread in that if the shoe was on the other foot, i.e. a guitarist "suggesting" to a bassist what or how he should play (regardless of whether the "suggestion" was warrented or not) lots of people would be up in arms with things like..."tell him where to stuff his suggestion.." and phrases to that effect.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='thefruitfarmer' timestamp='1399034587' post='2440256']

[/quote]
Seriously, people forget that the performance of a song is more than just reproducing its constituent parts.

Also, if anyone uses Sausage Machine Fallacy as a band name, I want 10% of any money they make.

[discreet]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1399034649' post='2440260']
Interesting thread in that if the shoe was on the other foot, i.e. a guitarist "suggesting" to a bassist what or how he should play (regardless of whether the "suggestion" was warrented or not) lots of people would be up in arms with things like..."tell him where to stuff his suggestion.." and phrases to that effect.
[/quote]

Not at all... sometimes other members of my band will make useful suggestions, and I'm very grateful for them. Then I'll bide my time and slowly return to what I was playing in the first place - because they're wrong, just plain bloody wrong!

[Japhet]

One of the best guitarists I ever played with used to say "what you don't play is more important than what you do" and I couldn't agree more. The current rhythm guitarist in my band has insisted on playing a Les Paul through a Marshall, and it bludgeons the hell out of our sound. He recently got shot of the LP and I lent him a Telecaster (with humbuckers) and the sound is 100 times better. He's still on about getting another Les Paul though so I think he'll have to be told!

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1399034649' post='2440260']
Interesting thread in that if the shoe was on the other foot, i.e. a guitarist "suggesting" to a bassist what or how he should play (regardless of whether the "suggestion" was warrented or not) lots of people would be up in arms with things like..."tell him where to stuff his suggestion.." and phrases to that effect.
[/quote]
Actually the OP is at a bit of a loss what to say to the guitarist - the suggestion is that the guitarist should listen and come to his own conclusions. But yeah I see what you mean

[discreet]

[quote name='thefruitfarmer' timestamp='1399034031' post='2440244']
MIght be worth recording him at some point, I have done that before with home recording and mixed the track to show clearly that one particular part needed playing again. Sometimes people assume the problem is with the recording rather than their playing though!
[/quote]

Get a cheap Zoom H1 and record every rehearsal live as a matter of course. I do this, upload the mp3s to my website and email everyone links. It really speeds things up as it's generally obvious when something's not working and why.

What I really mean is, when someone's playing crap it usually sticks out like a sore thumb.

Edited May 2, 2014 by discreet

[BassTractor]

In my band (link below) NO band member gets to just play whatever he likes. A song is talked through, and for each tiny segment, we reach agreement about the terms for each individual player.
That way, we never have to tell people to play less or more busy or whatever. Each one has their part, and we just put all those parts together. Works a treat, or should I say ...?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1399036868' post='2440306']
In my band (link below) NO band member gets to just play whatever he likes. A song is talked through, and for each tiny segment, we reach agreement about the terms for each individual player.
That way, we never have to tell people to play less or more busy or whatever. Each one has their part, and we just put all those parts together. Works a treat, or should I say ...?
[/quote]

Very good, couldn't help myself and had to follow the link. Oh well, here's a nice picture:

[BassTractor]

Thanks. Incidentally, after you, I followed the link myself, and found this gem of a cut thumb that seemed to fit the subject matter quite well:
[url="http://s1170.photobucket.com/user/basstractor1/media/FBbrokenthumb_zps8b5eb7bd.png.html"][/url]

"Don't overdo it, and watch yer fingers!"

Edited May 2, 2014 by BassTractor

[Beer of the Bass]

This might be because I've spent more time playing bass, but in the one band I play guitar in I find that dropping into rhythm mode is my default state. If the song needs something outside of that, I really have to push myself to do that as it doesn't feel very natural to me. It's the first band I've played guitar in, which makes it an interesting experience.

[JTUK]

It will help enormously if you can go to the essense of what that player is about.
You don't want to trying to mould someone as that is a stpe too far but you should
be able to feed them ideas and influences.

You can not assume a gtr can handle a solo and chord parts the way you want
them to... as they will have their bents like everyone else, it is just that we or they
indulge themsevles more. Funnily enough this makes them very easy to pidgeonhole
and therefore make them easy to pick....

So, yes, typically, gtrs aren't always the most rounded of players... IMO.