They're havin' a laff.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1399148963' post='2441601']
OBBM does these. Each one comes free with a bag of Tetley
[/quote]

What if we don't like Tetley?


On a slightly more serious note, what is the current state of play on interconnects and speaker cables? I recall that OFC was once considered the DB's for your HiFi gear...

Edited May 3, 2014 by leftybassman392

[Damonjames]

I would love to see the science behind this. I'm an electrician, and I can get that these leads "could" make a difference to the current supply but tbh I didn't read all the specs. The power cables in the building in 99% of situations (in aus at least) are rated at 20 amps and are 2.5 mm squared cable for both active and neutral. Given the vast majority of amp or extension leads are 0.75mm squared, there is a big difference in cross sectional area when you start working out the resistance of the circuit on the active AND neutral. If you factor in the material used if it could be lower resistance than your average copper, and reduced the inductance/capacitance of the wire as well then the physics does point to a drastic difference. As to whether or not you could A/B it with a normal one who knows. All I know is that my lava tightrope patch lead kit made a massive difference to the standard lead cable/neutrik setup I ran before in regards to tone suck. When I say massive I mean MASSIVE!

[Dingus]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1399149988' post='2441616']
What if we don't like Tetley?


On a slightly more serious note, what is the current state of play on speaker cables? I recall that OFC was once considered the DB's for your HiFi gear...
[/quote]

What kind of speaker cables are best depends on what you are partnering them with and what kind of effect you want them to have on the sound. OFC is very common, but ceramic wire and silver and even gold cables can all offer a different sonic palette.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Damonjames' timestamp='1399150118' post='2441619']
I would love to see the science behind this. I'm an electrician, and I can get that these leads "could" make a difference to the current supply but tbh I didn't read all the specs. The power cables in the building in 99% of situations (in aus at least) are rated at 20 amps and are 2.5 mm squared cable for both active and neutral. Given the vast majority of amp or extension leads are 0.75mm squared, there is a big difference in cross sectional area when you start working out the resistance of the circuit on the active AND neutral. If you factor in the material used if it could be lower resistance than your average copper, and reduced the inductance/capacitance of the wire as well then the physics does point to a drastic difference. As to whether or not you could A/B it with a normal one who knows. All I know is that my lava tightrope patch lead kit made a massive difference to the standard lead cable/neutrik setup I ran before in regards to tone suck. When I say massive I mean MASSIVE!
[/quote]

Bear in mind in anything I have to say on this subject that I don't understand how electricity works, and can't even wire a plug or change a fuse. But yes, I agree

[Dad3353]

Perceived sound in humans is pneumatic. There'd be more difference in sound between a meteorological depression and an anticyclone than any swapping of reasonably constituted mains cables. Only my opinion, of course, but coincidentally factually true, too.

[Sean]

This thread comes up every few years.

[KingBollock]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399149984' post='2441615']


Flyfisher's point assumes that the power supply is sufficiently imperfect to render cables irrelevant. What and where is the evidence to support that ? If some cables sound better than others, they sound better. At a practical level, that is you really need to know
[/quote]
Well no, that's not all [b]I[/b] need to know. I am very aware of how easily fooled human beings are, I would want to be certain that there is solid science behind it so that I can be sure that once the demonstration and honeymoon period are over, I am still going to get the benefit I paid through the nose for.

[Annoying Twit]

Dispelling Audio Myths by Ethan Winer: http://ethanwiner.com/myths.html

BTW: If there was any truth that an expensive power cable could noticeably improve the quality of audio, the companies making the cables would pay for independent properly designed tests to demonstrate that they do. Then, they'd advertise the results far and wide.

[flyfisher]

Since this is a faith-like issue, this probably won't change any minds, but it's interesting reading nevertheless:
http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2011/12/30/audiophiles-and-the-need-to-be-special/

[discreet]

[quote name='Sean' timestamp='1399150800' post='2441636']
This thread comes up every few years.
[/quote]

Yes, but which one is the best?

[discreet]

It's snake oil, imo. Particularly all the Hi-Fi guff about interconnects and speaker cables. Yes, there is a difference between super-cheap crap and decent cable, mainly due to reliability issues, but if you think a recording is going to sound better played through £10,000 interconnects when the studio the recording was made in has miles and miles of frankly very ordinary cabling in it, then...

[Roland Rock]

One of my clients has, as part of his audio setup, a 'mains conditioner' which cost around £2k
He tried to explain what it does, but I got a bit lost.

[icastle]

My next door neighbour has spent nearly £400 on posh kitchen taps.
Mine are the cheapest things I could find at B&Q.

Does their tap water taste any better than mine?

[flyfisher]

[i]
Conclusion

The clear conclusion is that ABX testing does not back up many audiophile claims, so they become audiophile myths as they show cables do not inherantly change sound. Any change in sound quality comes from the listeners mind and interaction between their senses. What is claimed to be audible is not reliably so. Blind testing is also sometimes passed off as ABX. But blind testing is not really testing, it is a review of a product without seeing it, and that allows claims to be made about sound which have not been verified.

If hifi is all about sound and more specifically sound quality, then we should, once the other senses have been removed be able to hear differences which can be verified by being able to identify one product from another by only listening. But time and agian we cannot.

So you can either buy good but inexpensive hifi products such as cables, amps, CDPs and be satisfied that the sound they produce is superb. You do need to spend time with speakers as they really do sound identifiably different. Or you can buy expensive hifi products such as cable tec and luxuriate in the build and image and identify one hifi from another by looks and sound. But you cannot buy expensive and identify it from cheap by sound alone.

Here is The Institute of Engineering and Technology's conclusions on audiophile myths

http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/11/believe-in-better.cfm

which backs up the above conclusions.
[/i]

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

[discreet]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1399151649' post='2441649']
Does their tap water taste any better than mine?
[/quote]

To be honest, I think it probably does.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1399146963' post='2441567']
[url="http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA0323052614563GNCHLEKURJGYHPRT"]http://www.russandre...NCHLEKURJGYHPRT[/url]

Bargain.
[/quote]


Hahaha! The [i][b]Our Opinion[/b][/i] bits there are hilarious, and well worth my time. Thanks for posting.

[Dingus]

Well, for domestic hi-fi purposes,what cables sound and work best depends on the components you are using. No one is suggesting that most expensive= best, but some expensive audio equipment won't sound at its' best unless you partner it with expensive cables. Some other very expensive audio equipment, such as that made by Naim and Linn, sounds best with relatively inexpensive own -brand cables that were designed specifically to compliment that equipment. But cables are important and they do make a difference in a decent system.

[Dingus]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1399151729' post='2441650']

[i]Conclusion

The clear conclusion is that ABX testing does not back up many audiophile claims, so they become audiophile myths as they show cables do not inherantly change sound. Any change in sound quality comes from the listeners mind and interaction between their senses. What is claimed to be audible is not reliably so. Blind testing is also sometimes passed off as ABX. But blind testing is not really testing, it is a review of a product without seeing it, and that allows claims to be made about sound which have not been verified.

If hifi is all about sound and more specifically sound quality, then we should, once the other senses have been removed be able to hear differences which can be verified by being able to identify one product from another by only listening. But time and agian we cannot.

So you can either buy good but inexpensive hifi products such as cables, amps, CDPs and be satisfied that the sound they produce is superb. You do need to spend time with speakers as they really do sound identifiably different. Or you can buy expensive hifi products such as cable tec and luxuriate in the build and image and identify one hifi from another by looks and sound. But you cannot buy expensive and identify it from cheap by sound alone.

Here is The Institute of Engineering and Technology's conclusions on audiophile myths

[url="http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/11/believe-in-better.cfm"]http://eandt.theiet....e-in-better.cfm[/url]

which backs up the above conclusions.[/i]


[url="http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths"]http://www.head-fi.o...laims-and-myths[/url]
[/quote]

Why do you accept these essays as being incontrovertible truths? They are just as prone to being mythologized as the myths they are supposedly debunking.

[KingBollock]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399154761' post='2441672']


Why do you accept these essays as being incontrovertible truths? They are just as prone to being mythologized as the myths they are supposedly debunking.
[/quote]
Because they don't start every explanation with "We believe..." and end it with "Just £3.500!"?

[BassTractor]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1399155190' post='2441673']
Because they don't start every explanation with "We believe..." and end it with "Just £3.500!"?
[/quote]

Good and central point, but the following text:

[quote timestamp='1399151729' post='2441650']
[i]But you cannot buy expensive and identify it from cheap by sound alone.[/i]
[/quote]

reads as snake oil the other way to me.
I'm not afraid of a snake oil seller I don't believe. I'm afraid of a technician who claims to represent physics and whom I [b]do[/b] in fact believe. In reality (s)he is a mere human using subsets of understanding, and I'd better be very aware of that.

[the boy]

I'm losing faith in Basschat rapidly as I read this topic. In fact I think it is sucking the life out of me.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1399151729' post='2441650'] [i] Conclusion The clear conclusion is that ABX testing does not back up many audiophile claims, so they become audiophile myths as they show cables do not inherantly change sound. Any change in sound quality comes from the listeners mind and interaction between their senses. What is claimed to be audible is not reliably so. Blind testing is also sometimes passed off as ABX. But blind testing is not really testing, it is a review of a product without seeing it, and that allows claims to be made about sound which have not been verified. If hifi is all about sound and more specifically sound quality, then we should, once the other senses have been removed be able to hear differences which can be verified by being able to identify one product from another by only listening. But time and agian we cannot. So you can either buy good but inexpensive hifi products such as cables, amps, CDPs and be satisfied that the sound they produce is superb. You do need to spend time with speakers as they really do sound identifiably different. Or you can buy expensive hifi products such as cable tec and luxuriate in the build and image and identify one hifi from another by looks and sound. But you cannot buy expensive and identify it from cheap by sound alone. Here is The Institute of Engineering and Technology's conclusions on audiophile myths http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2011/11/believe-in-better.cfm which backs up the above conclusions. [/i] http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths [/quote]

I think this link describes 'blind testing' quite inaccurately. Blind testing is a general concept in experimental design, and many very different experiments can be designed that include blind testing. Describing blind testing as just 'reviewing' equipment is incorrect and highly misleading.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399154761' post='2441672'] Why do you accept these essays as being incontrovertible truths? They are just as prone to being mythologized as the myths they are supposedly debunking. [/quote]

What should be believed is the repeatable results of properly designed scientific experiments. If the claims of audiophiles and those who sell products to them were true, then they would be easy to demonstrate in well designed scientific experiments that other people could then repeat, and confirm the results.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[Cameronj279]

That's bugger all. Fancy spending £240 on a plug socket?

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-plugs/188-furutech-fi-50m-rhodium-usa-plug--4582237532722.html#

[BassTractor]

[quote name='the boy' timestamp='1399156322' post='2441683']
I'm losing faith in Basschat rapidly as I read this topic. In fact I think it is sucking the life out of me.
[/quote]

I know that you know, but for young readers: this has nothing to do with BC!
It's that cable on your computer!

[Bassman Sam]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399148321' post='2441593']
Well I would beg to differ.

I am as sceptical as the next man about such things, but power cables can make a substantial and substantive difference to the sound of various kinds of audio equipment. You can argue at a theoretical level about the science all you like, but have any of you ever heard an A/B comparison for yourselves? Power cables, connecting cables and, perhaps more importantly, power supplies can make a profound difference to the overall complexion and quality of the sound. I know it's true because I have heard it with my own ears on more than one occasion.

O.K , let the bloodbath begin . I'm back in the Secure Unit on Monday morning , so lets get on with it.
[/quote]

I miss you on Off Topic, I hope you get back there soon. You crack me up, in a nice way.