They're havin' a laff.

[gafbass02]

I've spent hours and hours comparing cables, mainly hi-fi interconnects ( for work, not for fun!) but also scart, hdmi, optical, and to a lesser extent mains I also spent a happy afternoon with a fellow basschatter comparing guitar leads. (That was fun)

I found VERY marked differences in the case of guitar leads, scart and to a lesser extent, some interconnects. With optical there was no difference to me, with mains I found none, but as I got a couple of nice, chunky, cool looking QED ones on the cheap I bought them anyway. They have already been worth the cash, when on more than occasion using them with my bass rig the house engineer spotted them, and commented along the lines of "wow, I can tell you must really care about your tone". Which meant he paid extra care and attention with it win!

With scart the differences were quite visible to me, mainly edge definition and colour, nothing you couldn't correct with a bit of fiddling though. But with HDMI the only one that made any visible difference was a really expensive one, which seemed to REALLY knacker up the picture for some reason. ??!!

I found certain companies' products could always be relied of to produce some form of appreciable difference. With hi-fi interconnects it was QED and Ixos, the QED 'squart' (scart) cable made the single biggest difference of any Av cable I've ever seen, I bought several.

I always enjoyed the punch and 'solidity' that Ixos interconnects and speaker cable managed to add to a system.

The QED silver anniversary speaker cable made the biggest appreciable audible change to systems to my ears, but not always in a good way.

Most differences by most cabling were changes that could be made simply by fiddling with EQ or settings though, but most hi-fi types prefer that left alone and to achieve the same results as a quarter turn on the treble knob by spending £50 on a cable.
Fair play to them I guess, it's a hobby.

I'm glad to be out the business, but I still find huge differences in tone between guitar cables, appreciable in a loud stage setting? Perhaps not, but if I know the core tone is good, and the lead reliable, then I'm happy. I guess there's an added dimension to guitar leads, as you are connected to the dynamics and response of the sound, I find massive, undeniable differences there.

That said, in the last week I've had three of my main gigging cables go tits up! Two neutrick silent plugs from obbm and a leem.
I'm quite into the 'armour' cables from studio spares at the moment, good noise rejection, seem tough, good output and sound good.

As for the mains cables issue, I like mine, they look awesome, don't seem to do much apart from impress folks. Hell, I might even flog em on here and see if I get a bite!

Edited May 4, 2014 by gafbass02

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399154761' post='2441672']
Why do you accept these essays as being incontrovertible truths? They are just as prone to being mythologized as the myths they are supposedly debunking.
[/quote]

Remind me where I claimed they were 'incontrovertible truths'?

Such material does, however, help to provide a more balanced view and at least attempt to some consistent method, testability and repeatability into the debate.

I've always said I'm convinced that some people will hear differences between cables but I‘m suggesting these are based on placebo/psychology effects rather than physics (except in extreme cases). What much of the referenced trials suggest is that even 'special' people cannot reliably identify which type of cable they prefer when they don,t know which one is being used. Indeed, some people have claimed differences in sound when merely [u]told[/u] a cable has been changed - which tends to suggest the difference is all in the listener's mind and not the cable.

This would suggest that if you believe that spending a great deal of money on cables will improve your sound then it will - to you.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Cameronj279' timestamp='1399156358' post='2441685']
That's bugger all. Fancy spending £240 on a plug socket?

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-plugs/188-furutech-fi-50m-rhodium-usa-plug--4582237532722.html#
[/quote]

Nah . . . I'm saving up for this £16k mains cable . . .
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2011/02/08/the-most-expensive-cable-in-the-world/

[ezbass]

Given that the current coming in is then conditioned by a transformer, surely we need better transformers. It's all an argument with one important overriding factor for bass players, no one in the crowd (except for other bass players) is consciously listening to us anyway

[Paul S]

I could spend a fortune on gear - £250 on a socket, £3000 on a kettle lead, a few grand on a head and more on a cab, a boutique bass fashioned from tone woods .... but at the end of the chain there are always my ears, which are fairly royally shagged.

[KingBollock]

I wonder if when an audiophile has spent £300 on a power lead, and is convinced that it makes a difference to their system's sound, when they decide to "upgrade" to a £1000 lead, does the old lead go back to sounding like the bog standard lead that it really was in the first place?

How far can the placebo effect go in an audio sense? Can it just keep going up as long as you keep adding zeros to the price tag, or does it have to compensate with a two steps forward - one step back kind of system? Also, does it work as well if you're listening to someone else's "superior" system that you have either no intention or chance of ever owning for yourself?

How would it effect your appreciation for your expensive system if a friend, who is also an audiophile, whom you believe to be an expert with superior knowledge and experience, came to listen to it and started reeling off deficiencies with it, deficiencies you thought you had fixed with recent expensive upgrades?

This is why I prefer science to wishes riding a puff of wind. It seems that all it would take to waste all that money (and yes, until the point when you're brought back down to Earth, I can see how one might feel the money worth it) is a stiff breeze.

I'd also love to know how much these things actually cost to make. I bet I could save a shed load of money by buying component parts and making them myself, even if it meant weaving each strand of wire. Might take some time but I bet it would be a fun project.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1399151625' post='2441648']
One of my clients has, as part of his audio setup, a 'mains conditioner' which cost around £2k
He tried to explain what it does, but I got a bit lost.
[/quote]

made by L'Aureal

because you're worth it

no seriously

[leftybassman392]

I do remember once getting a tip (buggered if I can remember where I got it from though so apologies for that), which has served me pretty well over the years when dealing with plugs and cables. Every once in a while it's a good idea to physically unplug permanent cables, spray a bit of WD40 or Switch Cleaner onto a cotton rag, wipe the plugs with it and reinsert them. Used to do about once a year with my studio setup. I found it worked well with my guitar leads too. Can't speak for it's efficacy with mains leads though...

[hubrad]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1399198499' post='2441924']
I do remember once getting a tip (buggered if I can remember where I got it from though so apologies for that), which has served me pretty well over the years when dealing with plugs and cables. Every once in a while it's a good idea to physically unplug permanent cables, spray a bit of WD40 or Switch Cleaner onto a cotton rag, wipe the plugs with it and reinsert them. Used to do about once a year with my studio setup. I found it worked well with my guitar leads too. Can't speak for it's efficacy with mains leads though...
[/quote]
Switch cleaner, yes.. WD40 NO,NO,NO! It's brill on machinery, but for electronics it's more likely to cause problems. Especially don't use it for pots, as it burns (on a very small level, not like e-cigs going off! :-D ) and knacks yer pots!

[hubrad]

Signal cables are the noticeable ones.. one of my occasional bands was given the opportunity to try Cream cables at a gig (see the Cricketers' link on here: http://www.thedenkeighley.co.uk/Cream%20cable.htm ) and being my usual sceptical self I said I'd give a cable a quick try at soundcheck. A subtle yet appreciable difference, just clearer tone. We all used them, even the mics were on Cream. The frontman was so blown away by the cumulative effect of all the channels being just that bit clearer that he offered to put the cash upfront if we all fancied a cable or two each! We all went for it, and no regrets there whatsoever.
These days I automatically reach for those cables, knowing my tone is just that tad better; it's just like the eternal arguments about 'more expensive basses - are they worth it?' or 'how much difference can the wood make?' .. even if nobody else can hear the actual difference, if I'm more confident and 'in the Zone' they'll probably appreciate my playing that bit better.
I was once in a studio, where the guy ran a spectrum analyser on my Cream and a 'normal' cable.. on-screen the Cream didn't look anything like as good as t'other, but to my [u]ears[/u]..
It stands to reason that even the mains cabling could make a yet more subtle difference, quite possibly not one you would as such hear - I got one of the basic 'Hi-Fi' kettle leads and can't [u]hear[/u] the difference, but anything that contributes to the cumulative improvement gets my vote.
To anyone who is convinced it's snake-oil - don't fret about it, there's more to worry about in life!
To the interested sceptic - get a go one one or more of these things and see what you think. If you hear a difference, then it's your call as to whether you think it's worth the price tag.
Some really cool players use dead-basic everything, some use top-notch. Enjoy life!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1399188772' post='2441780']
Nah . . . I'm saving up for this £16k mains cable . . .
[url="http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2011/02/08/the-most-expensive-cable-in-the-world/"]http://www.pcpro.co....e-in-the-world/[/url]
[/quote]

Save your money; that's a speaker cable. You'd kill yourself if you used it for mains.

[discreet]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1399186698' post='2441770']
That said, in the last week I've had three of my main gigging cables go tits up! Two neutrick silent plugs from obbm and a leem.
[/quote]

Good God, that is the first time I've ever seen anywhere anything about any failure associated with obbm's work!
...I'm guessing it can only have been Neutrik's fault!

Edit: Though apparently those 'silent' plugs are only good for 10,000 insertions, so...

Edited May 4, 2014 by discreet

[TheGreek]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1399146963' post='2441567']
[url="http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1564&customer_id=PAA0323052614563GNCHLEKURJGYHPRT"]http://www.russandre...NCHLEKURJGYHPRT[/url]

Bargain.
[/quote]

You know what they say..." a fool and his money are easily parted" - living proof if people are buying these.

[discreet]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1399205033' post='2442018']
You know what they say..." a fool and his money are easily parted" - living proof if people are buying these.
[/quote]

I am almost (but not quite) speechless. [size=4] [/size]

[hubrad]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1399205033' post='2442018']
You know what they say..." a fool and his money are easily parted" - living proof if people are buying these.
[/quote]
[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1399205214' post='2442020']
I am almost (but not quite) speechless.
[/quote]

[attachment=161937:fags.jpg]

[Beer of the Bass]

The manufacturers claims about interference rejection at high frequencies have got me wondering. If you look at the schematic of any linear power supply, after the fuse, transformer and rectifier come a series of R/C low-pass filters using large value electrolytic capacitors. These filters are intended to remove 50Hz and 100Hz ripple from the DC which powers the audio circuitry, so at higher frequencies they will behave much like a dead short to ground. So how does interference picked up by the mains cable find it's way into the DC supply?
The Russ Andrews cable above is tested for interference in the MHz range, and I'm struggling to see how this could be an issue given the filtering used in power supplies. Or have they just commissioned some graphs to look sciencey? [url="http://www.russandrews.com/downloads/SKtest.pdf"]http://www.russandrews.com/downloads/SKtest.pdf[/url]

Edited May 4, 2014 by Beer of the Bass

[Dingus]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1399156337' post='2441684']

What should be believed is the repeatable results of properly designed scientific experiments. If the claims of audiophiles and those who sell products to them were true, then they would be easy to demonstrate in well designed scientific experiments that other people could then repeat, and confirm the results.
[/quote]

What should be believed is the evidence of your own ears.

Science finds it very different to measure aesthetic criteria, especially when what improves audio equipment is euphonic distortions of sound , rather than measurably more accurate reproduction of recorded media .

Yes, your mind can play tricks on you, but I have heard cables and power supply upgrades make such a difference to the sound of some audio equipment that it is incontrovertibly changed for the better. If it doesn't make that kind of improvement, where you are left in no doubt whatsoever, then don't invest in the upgrade .

[Dingus]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1399205033' post='2442018']
You know what they say..." a fool and his money are easily parted" - living proof if people are buying these.
[/quote]

Solid silver cables can make a[u][i] huge[/i][/u] difference to the sound of audio equipment. Whether you will like that difference is a matter of taste, but in many instances, the difference is very real. If you have got a very expensive hifi system ( some people do) then silver mains, interrconnect and spwaker cable can make an enormous difference to the overall sound.

Pure silver has a very distinctive sound when used for hifi cables, very crystalline and wide bandwidth ( too much so for some tastes). Partnered with sympathetic components , silver cables can be a revelation . Those components will most likely have to be very, very expensive ones, though, to get value for money from a £3000 mains cable. But bear in mind, some people have CD players that cost £20 00 or more, allied with other equally ( or more) expensive ancillaries. These kind of cables are aimed at that market, not the ordinary average guy.

[Dingus]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1399198499' post='2441924']
I do remember once getting a tip (buggered if I can remember where I got it from though so apologies for that), which has served me pretty well over the years when dealing with plugs and cables. Every once in a while it's a good idea to physically unplug permanent cables, spray a bit of WD40 or Switch Cleaner onto a cotton rag, wipe the plugs with it and reinsert them. Used to do about once a year with my studio setup. I found it worked well with my guitar leads too. Can't speak for it's efficacy with mains leads though...
[/quote]

Just unplugging all the interconnect and speaker cable connections on you hifi and then plugging them back in again a couple of times every once in a while is usually enough to remove any build up of oxidization and subtly improve the sound.

[Dingus]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1399188582' post='2441779']
Remind me where I claimed they were 'incontrovertible truths'?

[/quote]

By presenting these essays without qualification you are implying that they are concrete proof to the contrary

[Dad3353]

[rant]
... and my tuppence-worth, at the expense of appearing to be a 'jealous guy', is that this kind of money, however rich a person is, is a criminal waste in the world, whatever the so-called audio benefit. Some folks spend 10 times as much on a watch chain, or ear-rings. I think that that, too, is criminal. Sorry, but I'll never accept, even from my privileged position as one of the 1% or whatever myself, that this is 'just fine', and 'normal'. Selfish deluded greed, that's what it is, however it's dressed up.
[/rant]

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399213420' post='2442117']
Just unplugging all the interconnect and speaker cable connections on you hifi and then plugging them back in again a couple of times every once in a while is usually enough to remove any build up of oxidization and subtly improve the sound.
[/quote]

Yes I was aware of that already, but the switch cleaner just helps the process along. After a while it just became a routine. Without commenting either way on audible effects, improving the electrical connection can't do any harm.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399212407' post='2442104']
What should be believed is the evidence of your own ears.

Science finds it very different to measure aesthetic criteria, especially when what improves audio equipment is euphonic distortions of sound , rather than measurably more accurate reproduction of recorded media .

Yes, your mind can play tricks on you, but I have heard cables and power supply upgrades make such a difference to the sound of some audio equipment that it is incontrovertibly changed for the better. If it doesn't make that kind of improvement, where you are left in no doubt whatsoever, then don't invest in the upgrade .
[/quote]

You have said several times that you have heard cables and power supply upgrades make big improvements to the sound, as in the bold bit above. However, for the purposes of this discussion, what we really need to know whether you identified actual, perceptible, improvements in the sound, or whether you imagined you did. Just repeating your claims does not help us distinguish between these two possibilities.

You are very welcome to make purchasing decisions however you please, and you have extended the same courtesy to me.

My understanding of this thread is that for the nth time (*), we're discussing whether certain types of audiophile equipment actually improve sound, or whether the improvements are imaginary. For these two cases to be distinguished, the evidence of "my own" ears is woefully inadequate unless the testing is undertaken as part of a very robustly designed experiment. That I can easily fool myself, and that many other people are similarly easily fooled, is something that I have noticed over and over again throughout my life.

(*) This shouldn't be read as exasperation, I quite enjoy debate, even if repeated

Edit:

Concerning:



[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1399212407' post='2442104']
Science finds it very different to measure aesthetic criteria, especially when what improves audio equipment is euphonic distortions of sound , rather than measurably more accurate reproduction of recorded media .
[/quote]

I don't agree. If we have a fancy power lead that is claimed to change the quality of sound compared to a normal power lead, then this is very easy for science to measure. If there was found to be a difference, then we would have to look further into how we should further describe the difference. But, we're still looking for any perceptible difference at all, hence there are no such problems.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[gafbass02]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1399204894' post='2442017']


Good God, that is the first time I've ever seen anywhere anything about any failure associated with obbm's work!
...I'm guessing it can only have been Neutrik's fault!

Edit: Though apparently those 'silent' plugs are only good for 10,000 insertions, so...
[/quote]

It certainly is, it's the silent ends that have gone intermittent, nothing to do with the construction, in fact, since typing that (this morning ) another one has gone!!?

[discreet]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1399220718' post='2442178']
It certainly is, it's the silent ends that have gone intermittent, nothing to do with the construction, in fact, since typing that (this morning ) another one has gone!!?
[/quote]

Phew, so obbm's reputation remains intact! That's a relief.
I suppose the lesson here is to ask yourself the question, 'do I really need silent switching jack plugs?'