discreet Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1400005302' post='2449857'] They charge by volume... [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidesert Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Thanks Lozz196 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 [quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1399986319' post='2449598'] No idea Stevie. I've asked Alex just now and I'll let you know. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned mid-June though. I'm in no panic for it! [/quote] If you ever go through Notts with it drop it round so I can have a blast. I'm sure two would tick a lot of boxes for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1400001515' post='2449801'] do you mean the new "retro" cabs or the new ten 3 stuff? [/quote] I believe Lawrence was responding to the comments about the BB2. Basschat topics do tend to drift somewhat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudpup Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1400005302' post='2449857'] They charge by volume ... [/quote] And we all know how loud they are.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1400005118' post='2449852'] I think £699 is alright for the BB2. It doesn't put me off. I do think, and this is not an attack, that the postage for the small cabs should come down. [/quote] Its fairly common for products to retail at 3-5 times the wholesale cost of raw materials/components and I think BF are at the lower end of that scale. It seems some people expect to pay the raw costs "plus a bit" but that isn't the reality of any viable manufacturing business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1399978486' post='2449487'] No, I think you might not have understood what I mean. As far as I know, all of the posts are from people who HAVE tried BF cabinets, in some way/form, eg bass bash, gigs, home vs other cabs, all of these, etc etc. [/quote] I've re-read what I posted a few times and I think you've misunderstood me. Just to clarify, I was saying that those who pass negative comments about BF cabs (or any gear, really) WITHOUT having any experience of them are unreasonable. Anyone who HAS tried them and doesn't like them is just like me when it comes to Harley Davidsons, they just don't like them and have made a judgement based on experience, which in my book is just fine. I don't think I'll ever be a BF fanboy, nowhere near as I'd have to make room and my Yamaha obsession won't allow it :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1400022458' post='2450068'] It seems some people expect to pay the raw costs "plus a bit" but that isn't the reality of any viable manufacturing business. [/quote] You know I think this may actually be it... could it be that despite the vast amount of research, development and investment that Alex has put in to make his product the best it can be, and though his company is going from strength to strength, the fact that he started out as a one-man band in a garage means that fundamentally people still think of his cabs as 'home-made'? When I was toying with the idea of registering as a BFM builder it was brought home to me that though Bill's designs are way ahead of most commercial cabs, the fact that they were essentially made by bass players for themselves and others in some way devalued them, and people were indeed only prepared to pay the cost of materials plus about twenty quid. Which is of course ridiculous and makes any sort of business plan impossible. It seems people just don't want to let the facts about actual real-world performance stand in the way of good old brand-perception and the acceptance of lesser products that don't sound as good, but are well-finished and well-marketed. This is my opinion and of course your mileage may vary. Edited May 14, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400026070' post='2450080'] It seems people just don't want to let the facts about actual real-world performance stand in the way of good old brand-perception and the acceptance of lesser products that don't sound as good, but are well-finished and well-marketed. [/quote] You can of course have extremely well engineered products, with the best QC/finish/aesthetics available, all in one package. The aesthetics and fit/finish should be the easy bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1400057338' post='2450194'] You can of course have extremely well engineered products, with the best QC/finish/aesthetics available, all in one package. The aesthetics and fit/finish should be the easy bit! [/quote] You've never built a cab, have you? The finish is the messy bit! Having tried painting cabs, cloth (rat fur) covering and vinyl/tolex, you couldn't pay me enough to finish a cab for somebody else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1400060544' post='2450252'] The finish is the messy bit! Having tried painting cabs, cloth (rat fur) covering and vinyl/tolex, you couldn't pay me enough to finish a cab for somebody else... [/quote] Quite. When I built a BFM cab a while back I spent some time on the finish and it is hard to get right by hand - commercial production lines have it all down to a fine art. Companies know the importance of a good finish and inevitably resources are diverted from other areas to fund it. My efforts were OK but didn't last because I used cheap vinyl. The cab photographed quite well, though... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/105476-first-build-bfm-j12-check-it-out/page__view__findpost__p__988361"]http://basschat.co.u...post__p__988361[/url] [color=#ffffff]M[/color] Edited May 14, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) I built a Dumble clone guitar amp for my brother's 30th birthday a few years back. Took me twice as long to build the cab as it did to build the amp, and longer again to get the vinyl on it. Your 'effort' looks FAR superior to mine (which I'm not going to show after seeing yours!), although I think it was my shoddy woodworking that let me down rather than my present wrapping skills! Having said that the amp sounds AMAZING so the slightly 'homebrew' look doesn't bother anybody who plays it, in the same way what may be perceived as a 'cottage industry' feel to barefaced's finishing doesn't bother me at all. Edited May 14, 2014 by Bigwan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400060943' post='2450255'] Companies know the importance of a good finish and inevitably resources are diverted from other areas to fund it. [color=#ffffff]M[/color] [/quote] Yes - like the drivers for instance Which brings us back to Barefaced - design your cabs around top-notch speakers, keep them feather-light, and maybe (possibly even inevitably) cut corners on the quality* of the finish. * Quality is, of course, a very subjective quantity.... Edited May 14, 2014 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1400060544' post='2450252'] You've never built a cab, have you? The finish is the messy bit! Having tried painting cabs, cloth (rat fur) covering and vinyl/tolex, you couldn't pay me enough to finish a cab for somebody else... [/quote] No, and I don't intend to as I pay others to do it! I don't think I know any musicians that I grew up with who have spent time building cabs. Guitarists are much easier to please I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1400061733' post='2450270'] Yes - like the drivers for instance Which brings us back to Barefaced - design your cabs around top-notch speakers, keep them feather-light, and maybe (possibly even inevitably) cut corners on the quality of the finish. [/quote] Not doubting that their drivers are the best in the business, hence interest in the BB2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1400061412' post='2450263'] ...the slightly 'homebrew' look doesn't bother anybody who plays it, in the same way what may be perceived as a 'cottage industry' feel to barefaced's finishing doesn't bother me at all. [/quote] Me neither. In fact the finish of Barefaced's cabs has improved greatly. My second BFM cab was finished in TuffCab, as I believe are Barefaced. A superior cab covering compared with Tolex, vinyl or carpet in my opinion and much quicker to apply initially - if damaged it can be easily touched up with a textured roller in a matter of minutes and off you go. Edited May 14, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1400061968' post='2450272'] Guitarists are much easier to please I guess. [/quote] I think it's they're much more likely to stick to the perceived norm. It's why you get eejits that buy 100 watt valve stacks to play in the bedroom of their terraced house. It's wonderful that they can, but should they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400062635' post='2450282'] Me neither. In fact the finish of Barefaced's cabs has improved greatly. My second BFM cab was finished in TuffCab, as I believe are Barefaced. A superior cab covering compared with Tolex, vinyl or carpet in my opinion and much quicker to apply initially - if damaged it can be easily touched up with a textured roller in a matter of minutes and off you go. [/quote] Yeah the tuffcab looks great. If I were to build another cab it'd definitely be finished with that! But back to the point about guitarists - can anyone think the of a tuffcab finished guitar amp/cab? I can't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400026070' post='2450080'] You know I think this may actually be it... could it be that despite the vast amount of research, development and investment that Alex has put in to make his product the best it can be, and though his company is going from strength to strength, the fact that he started out as a one-man band in a garage means that fundamentally people still think of his cabs as 'home-made'?...................... ................. [/quote] They tend to comment on the home made aspect because, IMO, they look home-made... I've long thought they needed a proper cabinet maker ( Skilled, and they cost ) and not someone who thinks he can handle tools... Design is also down to how good the eye is in that regard... and you can't fake that... you either have it or you don't. Also, you can only read so much out of a book,... sooner or later talent needs to kick in. Otherwise, you are just another guy building a box..and the best thing about that box is the things that you don't make yourself and buy in. I would imagine it helps if you then want to be considered an authority etc etc .. Personally, I really don't care one way or another, but when you see some of the stuff on these pages, you might want to post a counter view if you have one. The reason that it seems to be a problem here is that the cheerleaders seem to react just as much as the ante's when someone diagrees. That perpetuates the same thing over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='Bigwan' timestamp='1400063134' post='2450286'] It's why you get eejits that buy 100 watt valve stacks to play in the bedroom of their terraced house. It's wonderful that they can, but should they? [/quote] In a word, no! I can't think of any situation in which a guitarist would need a 100W valve rig... but I'm sure a guitarist can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1400061968' post='2450272'] No, and I don't intend to as I pay others to do it! I don't think I know any musicians that I grew up with who have spent time building cabs. Guitarists are much easier to please I guess. [/quote] I built a cab as a kid.... it looked awful and ended up in the bin. But to a 'pro' cab maker... dimensions is the easy bit ( once that has been determined ) but I bet they wouldn't want to build it by hand for the money that you would want to pay. Edited May 14, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400063273' post='2450289'] They tend to comment on the home made aspect because, IMO, they look home-made... [/quote] That is entirely subjective and has no bearing on how good the cabs are. I happen to think they look great, but again that's just my opinion. I'd rather have a basic-looking cab that sounds fantastic than an entirely mediocre cab that looks like a Philippe Starck creation. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400063273' post='2450289'] Also, you can only read so much out of a book... sooner or later talent needs to kick in. [/quote] Are you suggesting that Alex isn't talented? [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400063273' post='2450289'] ...the cheerleaders seem to react just as much as the ante's when someone disagrees. [/quote] Quite obviously I'm not anti-Barefaced, but I don't like the word 'cheerleader' - if I try out a product and I think that it's good then I am going to post my views on this forum for others to read. Isn't that what BassChat is here for? It's primarily a place where people come for information and opinions about bass gear above all else. I'm not going to recommend something that I don't like. I'm not associated with, or affiliated to, Alex or his company, either... just to be clear. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400063552' post='2450294'] But to a 'pro' cab maker... I bet they wouldn't want to build it by hand for the money that you would want to pay. [/quote] You're right, and that is why hand-building cabs is not commercially viable - I know this from experience. People have an idea in their heads about how much things should cost and generally don't want to pay much more for a premium product. Which is why most products, from fridges to cars to musical instruments are built down to a price and is why most consumer items don't work properly and fail quickly. Yet this rubbish is marketed heavily because it fits into a perceived budget and makes huge profits from mass-consumption. This is one of the central tenets of consumer capitalism. Edited May 14, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400063273' post='2450289'] The reason that it seems to be a problem here is that the cheerleaders seem to react just as much as the ante's when someone diagrees. That perpetuates the same thing over and over. [/quote] What perpetuates these threads, and their (often negative) content, is comments like the above. Why do people have to either "cheeleaders" or "ante's" (sic) in your mind? Many of the people that you perceive to be cheeleaders are simply satisfied customers, who are just as discerning as you, but have come to different conclusions. I still fail to understand why you feel it to be your mission to constantly make negative comments in every thread that mentions Barefaced. Counter-opinions are valuable, but you are starting to sound like a stuck record! Edit - Discreet got in there first... Edited May 14, 2014 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I use the word cheerleader or fan boi... it seems to fit with the general pushiness .. but I quite agree, people that don't rate them, as just as pushy the other way. One group to me is zealous and the other tends to be acidic... The home made theme is ok if you are charging home made prices, but as you say yourself, this is a commercial concern. Personally, I would not have that on any product I would be associated with. The answer to your other question is no. I consider the whole package in that opinion. That is why you get someone in who complements other strenghts and covers the weakness. There may be mitigation why that isn't practical, of course, but if you aren't ready to play with the big boys, then best keep quieter about it..?? No one in business will think , oh that is ok, he is only just starting, give him a break, when they are charging big boy prices and potentially after the sme business/market. To be blunt... it is not enough to seem to bamboozle your fan club, if the industry seems to not take any notice. You can't just set out a desired goal and expect to achieve it without any real substance... Time will tell if and where that may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400063273' post='2450289'] They tend to comment on the home made aspect because, IMO, they look home-made... I've long thought they needed a proper cabinet maker ( Skilled, and they cost ) and not someone who thinks he can handle tools... Design is also down to how good the eye is in that regard... and you can't fake that... you either have it or you don't. Also, you can only read so much out of a book,... sooner or later talent needs to kick in. Otherwise, you are just another guy building a box..and the best thing about that box is the things that you don't make yourself and buy in. [/quote] Again, these would all be reasonable points based on where they were several years ago and perfectly valid criticisms of the earlier cabs, but I'm not sure they still apply. All of those points have been made multiple times on Basschat and I'm sure anyone looking for opinions can use the search function without them having to be repeated on every thread. I have a cab which was Alex's pre-production prototype for the S12, and while it's light and very functional, there is a certain roughness about it. Comparing my cab to McNach's new ones, I'd say they have addressed that. The woodworking is done by CNC now (so should be spot-on) and the finishing has improved. They're no longer simply buying in drivers and putting them in a box either, as the new drivers are developed specifically for them and are a bit of a USP. Of course, you may still prefer something else on aesthetic or tonal grounds, and that's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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