Bass - the easy option?

[Diablo]

[quote]Unfortunately it's not one of the disciplines that most guitarists, singers and drummers I've played with can come to terms with![/quote]

There is a very good reason why Animal ended up as the drummist and not the bassist in Dr Teeth & The Electric Mayhem. It may also be noted that Sgt Floyd Pepper was Animal's handler, how true that often plays out in real life!

[BassTractor]

[JTUK]

I actually don't believe the bass has the least influence..I'd say you have a chance to have the most.
You have to make sense of the drummer...and you have to compliment the others.
I think the bass players prime function is making the bottom end sound tight.
You'll never be a tight band without a tight bass player... this is what gets you the gigs
and drop-in deps.
Good bass players do this easily and bad bass players will never rescue the band
and what ever fluffy bits the gtr and others thinks they can add, will not be able to affect that one
little bit.

[discreet]

It's like anything else if you start from a position of knowing nothing...

It's not easy peasy lemon squeezy... it can be difficult, difficult lemon difficult.

[geoham]

Update time!
He's going with a dual approach - bass and guitar. I went through some bass stuff with him a couple of nights ago, and my focus is on making him a better musician, and using the most important tool every musician has - ears!

Went through Bad Moon Rising, and while he could play the notes well enough, it was clear he had no idea what the song was doing when playing along with it. He said he can't really hear where the chord changes are.
I put on a metronome and got him playing along with that - just single root notes but getting the timing perfect. Next, he played the same simple roots in time with the music.
What we achieved is that he can now hear the chord changes. His 'homework' is to simply listen to music more closely and identify the beat & chord changes.

[discreet]

[quote name='geoham' timestamp='1400747177' post='2456535']
His 'homework' is to simply listen to music more closely and identify the beat & chord changes.
[/quote]

That's homework that everyone should be doing on a daily basis!
[size=1]...Especially drummers and guitarists.... *runs away*[/size]

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400745467' post='2456516']
I actually don't believe the bass has the least influence..I'd say you have a chance to have the most. ...

I think the bass players prime function is making the bottom end sound tight.
You'll never be a tight band without a tight bass player...[/quote]

But you don't need to be a talented musician to do that. That's sort of my point - excellent bassists are 'luxury players' to borrow a football phrase. They are bottom of the list of most bands' requirements.

[Mark Dyer]

Just my opinion but I think this has very little to do with what instrument your son is/wants to play.

At that age (12+) it's more about wanting to be in a band, play guitar with your mates, the image, 'being in a gang' mentality, especially so with rock, and it's a good thing.

I don't think any kind of continued encouragement is going to make it any easier for your son. He has a guitar, he's started lessons, he practices at home, he has everything he needs at this stage, if he's going to persevere, then it's down to him now.

If we could all magically go back in time to when we first starting playing I think most of us would probably do it different, we would be taking lessons at age 5 for a start!.

But we can't, and even if we could we would probably make the same mistakes again.

If I had one piece of advice I would suggest he gets together with anyone else he knows at school who plays an instrument and encourage him to form a band.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1400750282' post='2456556']
But you don't need to be a talented musician to do that
[/quote]

this cannot be true as surely more guitarists would be playing bass?

[tinyd]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1400750282' post='2456556']
But you don't need to be a talented musician to do that. That's sort of my point - excellent bassists are 'luxury players' to borrow a football phrase. They are bottom of the list of most bands' requirements.
[/quote]

I have to disagree - to extend the football analogy, good bassists are like good defenders. They're never going to get the same plaudits as the flashy strikers with all their tricks, but you won't win anything with a loose, shaky defence. At the risk of overdoing the analogy, great bass players are also like great defenders in that the job is usually about doing the simple things well, often unnoticed by the majority of people watching.

I think the analogy is now at breaking point, so I'll shut up

Edited May 22, 2014 by tinyd

[thisnameistaken]

To continue to punish us with the football analogy: Centre backs are typically well disciplined but not highly skilled. And as such they are not as valuable as their teammates.

If you had a centre back who could dribble around the opposition midfield, outpace their full backs and curl it in the top corner from the edge of the box, you would stop playing him as a centre back. This is the footballing equivalent of the excellent bass player.

[tinyd]

But that's like a bass player who spends his/her time noodling around up the neck playing solos. You'd still need an actual bass player to hold it together at the back. Going back to football (which is obviously much more important than music) you can't have a whole team of strikers, and often strikers make crap defenders - you'll always need actual defenders. Your more traditional rock band tends to be more like a standard English club team, where everyone knows their place - defenders don't get up the park that much and strikers don't tackle back. Whereas other genres (jazz/prog/fusion) are more like Barcelona - skills and responsibilities are a lot more evenly distributed around the team.

Oh, and drummers are like goalies....I'm not sure exactly how, but I'll think of something

[thisnameistaken]

Yes of course every team needs reliable centre backs, but they don't have to be as good as the forwards. I think we're agreeing without acknowledging it. ;-)

[JTUK]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1400750282' post='2456556']
But you don't need to be a talented musician to do that. That's sort of my point - excellent bassists are 'luxury players' to borrow a football phrase. They are bottom of the list of most bands' requirements.
[/quote]

I think you do have to have 'something'... because I hear so many that can't or don't do it.
They think that playing the bass line on top is all that is required...they never get in the pocket.
There is a world of difference in my mind to playing the notes and playing 'IT'..

And if the player can play 'in' the track, the band is instantly tight from that POV and
all the other guys have to do is not ruin it.

Decent bass players should make a song work pretty much 1st time through and
then all you really need to do is fine tune the difficult, non instinctive parts and
get the chords right.
If the bass player is on it and can do this and you have decent enough guys around you who can
hold up their end... then you will sound better than most bands around
right from the off....

But then we are discussing 'tight' and 'tight'...

[tinyd]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1400769320' post='2456818']
Yes of course every team needs reliable centre backs, but they don't have to be as good as the forwards. I think we're agreeing without acknowledging it. ;-)
[/quote]

It's a different, less glamorous form of "good" Getting back to bass playing and bands in general, I think that on average, bass players are at least as good as other members of the band and that the ability to hold a tight groove together is often underrated. Let's face it, as bass players most of our non-musical family and friends don't have a clue what we do. It makes me laugh the number of times other musicians say things like "that was a really tricky rehearsal today" when the bass player didn't turn up for some reason like they're surprised. It's a bit like football, really.....oh..wait....

[discreet]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400770262' post='2456832']
I think you do have to have 'something'... because I hear so many that can't or don't do it. They think that playing the bass line on top is all that is required... they never get in the pocket. There is a world of difference in my mind to playing the notes and playing 'IT'....
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But then we are discussing 'tight' and 'tight'...[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Agree - and I'm not trying to make excuses, but it's tricky to get in the pocket if the drummer's not up to the job.

[JTUK]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400775215' post='2456908']
Agree - and I'm not trying to make excuses, but it's tricky to get in the pocket if the drummer's not up to the job.
[/quote]

The trick is to find a top notch drummer. We always use the best around.
I think I know what I'm doing.. IMHO.. but this guy is in a different class..and then some..!!
Sometimes, you just have to realise what talent some people have.. and hold your hands up.

[discreet]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1400785651' post='2457068']
The trick is to find a top notch drummer.
[/quote]

Well that's quite a trick, and one that has taken us nearly two years to pull off. But it's definitely worth it.

[Dingus]

I think bass is an easier option.

I quite often get compliments about my bass playing, but when I was at primary school I was useless at the recorder. What does that tell you?

If I had grown up and gone to school in a more salubrious setting instead of the rough-as-old-arseholes comprehensive that I went to , I might not have had music in my life at all now, never mind be a bass player . I might be an accountant or a supermarket manager by now , but we had a bass at school so that emotionally disturbed youths from violent backgrounds could learn to express themselves through reggae , and now here I am decades later still trying to show off to girls .

[discreet]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1400786509' post='2457085']
...when I was at primary school I was useless at the recorder. What does that tell you?
[/quote]

You suck..?

[Dingus]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1400786740' post='2457087']
You suck..?
[/quote]

I do indeed .

[discreet]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1400786874' post='2457088']
I do indeed .
[/quote]

I meant suck the recorder. You have to blow, apparently...

[Diablo]

*resists temptation to word play the post above*

You can go a long way in music if you know what to blow and when... perhaps one reason I've got just about nowhere.

[lojo]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1400826341' post='2457248']
Who cares, bass is the most wonderful of instruments in a modern band setting, that's the reason to play it

Sit back and support a song with a simple root note line with a few passing notes

Drive the song , with a intricate fast up front solid line

Either way your the main ingredient, but it's a best kept secret
[/quote]

Who cares, bass is the most wonderful of instruments in a modern band setting, that's the reason to play it

Sit back and support a song with a simple root not line with a few passing notes

Drive the song , with a intricate fast up front solid line

Either way your the main ingredient, but it's a best kept secret

Edited May 23, 2014 by lojo

[Guest bassman7755]

Having played both bass and guitar (including "lead") in bands I would say that guitar requires more homework or preparation, but bass requires much more focus during actual performance since you be bang on for pretty much every note you play.