Bi-Amps! Why i will never go back!

[Shockwave]

Thought the forum could do with a feel good thread.

I have been going from one amp to another very recently. I find one realise i dont like it very much, Go onto the next. They play second fiddle to my bass spending, And i try to get as much as i can from very little money ampwise.

I allways seemed to end up with cabs/amps that have had problems or incorrect ohmages, I have had more then my fair share of amp failures.

However they are now all gone

My rig is now complete.

Its a Marshall 3540 Bi-Amp. Peavey 1x15 2x8 Bi-amp cab.

The amp is one i am very familiar with, i had the 200 watt 3520 version for a while and i loved the sound, a good mix between a funk/rock sound. And one can be picked up fairly cheap, They are criminally underrated and have a very clean tone. One would say "Transparant" But only if you want it to be!

Anyway, I liked the 200 watt so much i upgraded to the 400 watt and couldnt be happier!


The cab is amazing! I took out the black widow and put a 500 watt eminence into it. Bi-amped the Treble to 2x8's and the bass to the 15 and it sounds so amazingly clear, This is the first time i have experienced Bi-amping in the flesh. Its bloody brilliant. Every naunce (and mistake) Comes through and cuts the mix.

I heartily endorse Bi-amping. And with the peavey cab it gets around the nuisance of carting around 2 cabs!

Edited July 17, 2008 by Shockwave

[bass_ferret]

Peavey did a lot of bi-amp gear but it never really took off - probably why they dont tend to put crossovers in their amps any more. The 1516 was a beast - it had a big brother as well, the 1820. What was wrong with the Black Widow? Hope you matched the driver and cab specs.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='242026' date='Jul 17 2008, 06:45 PM']Peavey did a lot of bi-amp gear but it never really took off - probably why they dont tend to put crossovers in their amps any more. The 1516 was a beast - it had a big brother as well, the 1820. What was wrong with the Black Widow? Hope you matched the driver and cab specs.[/quote]

The stock black widow was knackered, Coil had snapped itself. the Bi-Amp peavey cabs overheated quite easily.

The cab is overall a 4ohm cab, The 2x8s are 16 ohms each which equals 8 ohms, The 15 is 8 ohms so together if i use it as a full range cab i think its 4ohms, If i seperate the two sets of speakers it =8ohms, Which will run very clean at only a loss of 40 watts. Not 100% sure but my amp guy thinks the cab is awesome and runs very cleanly.

The eminence is actually a better speaker then the Black widow, More wattage and better built. Oh and it works!

The 1x15 Is 500 watts, the 8's are only 200 watts, However I have independent Treble and Bass volume controls on the marshall which works very well so there is no danger of blowing them. I dont need that much wattage on the treble speakers anyway due to human ear mechanics.

Rob.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Shockwave

[MythSte]

I think Bass Ferret meant more about the internal volume of the cab Vs. the speaker design, But hey, if it sounds good who cares!

[Shockwave]

[quote name='ste_m3' post='242038' date='Jul 17 2008, 06:58 PM']I think Bass Ferret meant more about the internal volume of the cab Vs. the speaker design, But hey, if it sounds good who cares! [/quote]
**Shrugs**

Itsa a pretty weighty, Large and well constructed cab. I dont think there is a huge problem! The amp doesant have enough power to blow it up

The amp actually has 2 seperate power amps rated at 200 watts each.

[Mr. Foxen]

I lugged my old Carlsbro valve head back from home and had a tinker with the crossover on my Firebass head. Sounded pretty damn good, but thats a lot of stuff to be shifting, running 2 15s off the Firebass for the lows and a 4x10 from the Carlsbro. Sounded mint, not practical in the slightest.

[bnt]

Another name I think of re Bi-Amping is Gallien-Krueger, who do amps with low power horn drive stages e.g. the 1001RB has 700W + 50W amps. I just looked it up and they're still making it, it seems. That, and the 2001RB, which has 2x540W + 2x50W = quad-amping!

[The Funk]

My Acme cabs give me a tri-amping set-up. I guess that makes me one better than you?

EDIT: Actually, that might not fall under the definition of tri-amping. It's a three-way cab with internal crossovers - so I just send the one signal into it.

Edited July 17, 2008 by The Funk

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='242032' date='Jul 17 2008, 06:53 PM']... the 8's are only 200 watts, However I have independent Treble and Bass volume controls on the marshall which works very well so there is no danger of blowing them. I dont need that much wattage on the treble speakers anyway due to human ear mechanics.[/quote]

You don't need much wattage on the 'treble' speakers because of power distribution across the frequency band.
see e.g.:
[url="http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#power_dist"]http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#power_dist[/url]

You will find that the higher you cross the less you are feeding your 'treble' speakers. Given you are running 2X8s in a hefty box, your crossover should be somewhere between 300 - 900hz. Cross any higher and you might as well lose the weight of the 8s and fit in a 4" driver. Also beyond 800 hz or thereabouts your 15" most probably goes into a territory where it is ineffective on a number of counts.

Edited July 17, 2008 by synaesthesia

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='The Funk' post='242178' date='Jul 17 2008, 09:30 PM']My Acme cabs give me a tri-amping set-up. I guess that makes me one better than you?

EDIT: Actually, that might not fall under the definition of tri-amping. It's a three-way cab with internal crossovers - so I just send the one signal into it.[/quote]


That is not tri-amping at all. A passive 3 way crossover does not work the same way as electronic crossovered signals split into frequency bands that feed individual amplifiers. In a proper electronic crossed system, you can vary the gain or power amplification to each band, and you can alter the bands with ease. A passive crossover does not allow this flexibility. there are also a host of issues with passive crossovers, phase coherence, frequency dips at cross points etc...

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='bnt' post='242060' date='Jul 17 2008, 07:33 PM']Another name I think of re Bi-Amping is Gallien-Krueger, who do amps with low power horn drive stages e.g. the 1001RB has 700W + 50W amps. I just looked it up and they're still making it, it seems. That, and the 2001RB, which has 2x540W + 2x50W = quad-amping![/quote]


If my memory serves me, the GK tweeter 'crosses over', probably high passed at 5Khz. For manufacturing ease they use the same 50W tweeter system whether it is the 700 or the 2001 model.

I can't remember if the woofer sections are actually low pass only, I suspect they are not and are full range; and by 5Khz you would not have much if at all anyway coming from the woofers.

[The Funk]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='242225' date='Jul 17 2008, 10:21 PM']That is not tri-amping at all. A passive 3 way crossover does not work the same way as electronic crossovered signals split into frequency bands that feed individual amplifiers. In a proper electronic crossed system, you can vary the gain or power amplification to each band, and you can alter the bands with ease. A passive crossover does not allow this flexibility. there are also a host of issues with passive crossovers, phase coherence, frequency dips at cross points etc...[/quote]

See.

It'd be tri-amping then if there were three separate cabs powered by three different power amps, each fed by a different output from an active crossover?

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='The Funk' post='242232' date='Jul 17 2008, 10:27 PM']See.

It'd be tri-amping then if there were three separate cabs powered by three different power amps, each fed by a different output from an active crossover?[/quote]

1 bass signal split into 3 frequency bands, each bandpassed signal goes into one of 3 power amp sections feeding 3 different speakers. You do not need a separate amp, a stereo power amp will be 2 channels of power, and you do not need a separate cab for each speaker section, they can be in the same box. Your typical powered 2 way studio monitor is one box, taking in one signal, splitting it into 2 bands, and there are two power amp sections in that box, one feeds the woofer and one feeds the tweeter.

[Shaggy]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='242005' date='Jul 17 2008, 06:26 PM']Thought the forum could do with a feel good thread.

I have been going from one amp to another very recently. I find one realise i dont like it very much, Go onto the next. They play second fiddle to my bass spending, And i try to get as much as i can from very little money ampwise.

I allways seemed to end up with cabs/amps that have had problems or incorrect ohmages, I have had more then my fair share of amp failures.

However they are now all gone

My rig is now complete.

Its a Marshall 3540 Bi-Amp. Peavey 1x15 2x8 Bi-amp cab.

The amp is one i am very familiar with, i had the 200 watt 3520 version for a while and i loved the sound, a good mix between a funk/rock sound. And one can be picked up fairly cheap, They are criminally underrated and have a very clean tone. One would say "Transparant" But only if you want it to be!

Anyway, I liked the 200 watt so much i upgraded to the 400 watt and couldnt be happier!


The cab is amazing! I took out the black widow and put a 500 watt eminence into it. Bi-amped the Treble to 2x8's and the bass to the 15 and it sounds so amazingly clear, This is the first time i have experienced Bi-amping in the flesh. Its bloody brilliant. Every naunce (and mistake) Comes through and cuts the mix.

I heartily endorse Bi-amping. And with the peavey cab it gets around the nuisance of carting around 2 cabs!


You should try it with a stereo bass thru 2 channels now Shockwave! I briefly tried it with the Ovation; neck pickup channel clean and bridge pickup channel with a bit of delay/chorus. Lovely massive "wall-of-sound", but TBH I couldn't be @rsed doing it live, especially as most bass amps are only single channel.[/quote]

[andy67]

is the marshall tranny, all valve or valve/tranny?

is a beast.

andy

[cheddatom]

I use my peavey combo (1 x 15") for lows, and a guitar combo (2 x 12") for highs. It's quite a practical bi-amp setup and sounds amazing.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='andy67' post='242449' date='Jul 18 2008, 10:14 AM']is the marshall tranny, all valve or valve/tranny?

is a beast.

andy[/quote]

Its a tranny. Mosfet powered.

[b]You should try it with a stereo bass thru 2 channels now Shockwave! I briefly tried it with the Ovation; neck pickup channel clean and bridge pickup channel with a bit of delay/chorus. Lovely massive "wall-of-sound", but TBH I couldn't be @rsed doing it live, especially as most bass amps are only single channel.
[/b]
I cant because it only has one input!

Darn.

[alexclaber]

When implemented well biamping is awesome. Solves all the problems of passive crossover designs, gives you more headroom, cleaner mids and highs, etc etc. The challenge is that the cabs have to be suitable for biamping - the usual 4x10" plus 1x15" rig is not a good candidate.

It is both harder and more expensive to get a studio monitor to give you flat response with a passive crossover and external amp than with an active crossover and two internal amps, which is why biamp studio monitors can be amazingly cheap yet transparent.

Alex

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='242499' date='Jul 18 2008, 10:58 AM']for biamping - the usual 4x10" plus 1x15" rig is not a good candidate.[/quote]

Very true, even crossing at 100hz the 1X15 + 4X10 is an unnecessary load. Further the 4X10 is not really very good as a mid range speaker.

[bnt]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='242230' date='Jul 17 2008, 10:26 PM']If my memory serves me, the GK tweeter 'crosses over', probably high passed at 5Khz. For manufacturing ease they use the same 50W tweeter system whether it is the 700 or the 2001 model.

I can't remember if the woofer sections are actually low pass only, I suspect they are not and are full range; and by 5Khz you would not have much if at all anyway coming from the woofers.[/quote]
I've been doing a little GK reading today, and the answers to those queries are basically "it depends". For example, on the RB-II heads and combos the tweeter amp is always after the 5kHz active crossover (natch), while the woofer stage can be switched between pre-crossover (full range) or post-crossover (hi cut at 5kHz). (That's not the wording they use in the manual, but it's what the block diagram describes.) The tweeter stage has its own switchable hi-cut at 10kHz, which sounds like it would be useful to reduce string noise etc.

I don't have a problem with the 50W tweeter amp - at 5kHz and up, 50W might be too much, but the amps have separate master volumes. The cabs are switchable between bi-amp mode to match the amps, or an internal crossover.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='bnt' post='242705' date='Jul 18 2008, 01:54 PM']I've been doing a little GK reading today, and the answers to those queries are basically "it depends". For example, on the RB-II heads and combos the tweeter amp is always after the 5kHz active crossover (natch), while the woofer stage can be switched between pre-crossover (full range) or post-crossover (hi cut at 5kHz). (That's not the wording they use in the manual, but it's what the block diagram describes.) The tweeter stage has its own switchable hi-cut at 10kHz, which sounds like it would be useful to reduce string noise etc.

I don't have a problem with the 50W tweeter amp - at 5kHz and up, 50W might be too much, but the amps have separate master volumes. The cabs are switchable between bi-amp mode to match the amps, or an internal crossover.[/quote]

Thanks for the update, good to know. I use one in a drummer's studio where we rehearse, it is a 700 whatever model, with the 2 X 10s....he owns it, it's there and I don't have to take an amp. I'll look for the crossover switch next time I use it. I think it is a RB II series combo.

[bnt]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='242744' date='Jul 18 2008, 02:24 PM']I'll look for the crossover switch next time I use it. I think it is a RB II series combo.[/quote]
The switch is called "Woofer Hi-Cut" on the RB-II, or "Woofer X-Over" on the original RB - same thing. I'm curious to hear what effect the tweeter hi-cut has - they say it makes it sound "less glassy", if that's what you want.

[Maxcat]

Ive got one of the Peavey Megaboxes taking up room if anyone fancies doing the same as Shockwave. Oh the Black Widow works perfectly.

[2x18]

If anybodys interested in trying bi-amping, I have an excellent B.K. Electronics MXF 400 3unit 200 + 200watt amp in a Warwick 4 unit Rockbag Rackcase that I will be selling shortly for £95.00 collected from Leeds. See B.K. site for details ( Its the one with the Meters! )

I am going away on 1 weeks Hol tomorrow so will sort out when I get back.

Regards

Will.