Playing more Legato

[SaxyBassist]

My playing has come on leaps and bounds, (I think!) but what I'm finding now is that when I'm playing say a F# blues right down the end of the neck, and I want it to sound smooth and legato when I go from the 3rd to the 5th of the triad - it's such a big wide jump - no way can I stretch that far and I can't move my hand quickly enough so it begins to sound disjointed and staccato, will this improve or have I missed something obvious?!

[Roland Rock]

To start with the very basics, are you are using your middle finger to play the root, the index to play the second, and the pinkie to play the fifth?

Are you fretting right behind the frets? You don't want to give yourself more work than you have to by starting further away.

Moving the hand slightly is quicker (and healthier) than stretching the hand when going for that fifth.

It can be tricky down at the end of the neck. This is where I think getting into the habit of running over your major scales and chord tones for a while every practice helps to make your technique get more fluid.

TBH since getting a five string, I just tend to play up around the seventh fret instead - much easier, unless I want the snappier tone that playing down at the lower frets brings.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Roland Rock

[SaxyBassist]

Hi thanks for your reply, yep got all my scales nailed - all modes, blues, major and minor pentatonics, arpeggios - and yes, middle on root, index on 3rd and pinkie on the fifth.... I don't try and stretch - and that's the problem - I have to jump my whole hand to the fifth and that's where I lose my note sound momentarily, I was wondering if there is some technique I should be using like trying to make the 3rd ring out for longer somehow? (I've tried and find that difficult!) I'd love a five string for that reason but can only just take the weight of my SR 300

[Roland Rock]

Fair enough. Just to clarify, when I mentioned scales/chord tones, I didn't just mean knowing them, but playing them over and over until the notes run into eachother seamlessly. It's good to do that in different tempos, as well as different styles. If you can play the chord tones/arpeggio for F# major fluidly without any glitches, then you're sorted. I fear it's just a matter of practice!
Obviously hand size is a factor too.

I'll have a go at it myself in a bit and see if there are any other tips I have not thought of.

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1400323376' post='2452876']
Fair enough. Just to clarify, when I mentioned scales/chord tones, I didn't just mean knowing them, but playing them over and over until the notes run into eachother seamlessly. It's good to do that in different tempos, as well as different styles. If you can play the chord tones/arpeggio for F# major fluidly without any glitches, then you're sorted. I fear it's just a matter of practice!
Obviously hand size is a factor too.

I'll have a go at it myself in a bit and see if there are any other tips I have not thought of.
[/quote]

Ah okay - I thought it would be a case of practice and more practice - just wanted to check I wasn't doing anything too wrong lol!
I will work on fluidity then and perhaps put a groove into the scales too? I notice that helped with the pentatonics.

My hands are medium but I don't push stretching my fingers as it just ends up hurting

[chrismuzz]

Practice moving your entire hand up to the next note in quick succession and it will come naturally. Over the year of playing stupid metal riffs I can go from the 6th fret on the A string to the first fret on the E string very comfortably using just my index finger. You can do it!

[hubrad]

Just tried it.. I think I have pretty average size hands, but I do play DB as well. 1-4 I just stretch, use 4th finger! I also, depending on the line and where I'm going next, go E2-E6 shift then A4 is no stretch at all.

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1400324727' post='2452900']
Practice moving your entire hand up to the next note in quick succession and it will come naturally. Over the year of playing stupid metal riffs I can go from the 6th fret on the A string to the first fret on the E string very comfortably using just my index finger. You can do it!
[/quote]

Thanks that's good to hear!

[quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1400327416' post='2452935']
Just tried it.. I think I have pretty average size hands, but I do play DB as well. 1-4 I just stretch, use 4th finger! I also, depending on the line and where I'm going next, go E2-E6 shift then A4 is no stretch at all.
[/quote]

I can only reach to fret 3 with my 4th finger! I have to move my whole hand to get to fret 4, (I am pretty ancient you know )
I suppose the trick now is to move the hand more fluidly!

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='SaxyBassist' timestamp='1400332782' post='2453002']
I can only reach to fret 3 with my 4th finger! I have to move my whole hand to get to fret 4
[/quote]

I generally use my 4th finger on the 3rd fret when I can because it's more comfortable than stretching. The one finger per fret technique is useful but not always possible at the lower end of the neck!

Edited May 17, 2014 by chrismuzz

[HowieBass]

Just tried that and the way I play it I have my thumb under the neck, closer to under the 1st than the 2nd fret position and I play it root:middle finger, 3rd:index finger and 5th:ring finger and my thumb stays pretty much in one place...

Edited May 17, 2014 by HowieBass

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1400335065' post='2453024']
Just tried that and the way I play it I have my thumb under the neck, closer to under the 1st than the 2nd fret position and I play it root:middle finger, 3rd:index finger and 5th:ring finger and my thumb stays pretty much in one place...
[/quote]

You must have very long fingers!! the furthest my little finger will stretch keeping my thumb in one place is fret 3

Edited May 17, 2014 by SaxyBassist

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1400333513' post='2453010']
I generally use my 4th finger on the 3rd fret when I can because it's more comfortable than stretching. The one finger per fret technique is useful but not always possible at the lower end of the neck!
[/quote]

yes so do I, and I dont' use one finger per fret about fret 4 - 5 - as you say it's not always possible at the low end

Edited May 17, 2014 by SaxyBassist

[Grangur]

I guess in doing this you're playing the major scale using the following for example:

Gmajor:

E string - 3 5
A string - 2 3 5
D string - 2 4 5

Have you thought of doing it this way:

E string - 3 5 7
A string - 3 5 7
D string - 4 5

Playing it this way the 3rd is 7th fret on the E and the 5th is 5th fret on the A ; a smaller jump.
You need to learn ALL of the notes on the neck and use all of the patterns to create a scale. Don't only use the one.
The 5th is also the fret above the root - so if you're playing a C major scale and play 3rd fret on the A-string, the 5th is also the G on the E-string; right below the C root.

The other way is go fretless and slide it.

Edit - or move further up the neck and move down a string.. of course.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Grangur

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1400344703' post='2453105']
I guess in doing this you're playing the major scale using the following for example:

Gmajor:

E string - 3 5
A string - 2 3 5
D string - 2 4 5

Have you thought of doing it this way:

E string - 3 5 7
A string - 3 5 7
D string - 4 5

Playing it this way the 3rd is 7th fret on the E and the 5th is 5th fret on the A ; a smaller jump.
You need to learn ALL of the notes on the neck and use all of the patterns to create a scale. Don't only use the one.
The 5th is also the fret above the root - so if you're playing a C major scale and play 3rd fret on the A-string, the 5th is also the G on the E-string; right below the C root.

The other way is go fretless and slide it.

Edit - or move further up the neck and move down a string.. of course.
[/quote]

Yep I've learnt 3 different ways - the 2 you said - plus starting on my little finger! my scales are fine, but whatever I do if I can't stretch far enough and have to jump then I get a staccato note on my arpeggios down the low end

Edited May 17, 2014 by SaxyBassist

[HowieBass]

[quote name='SaxyBassist' timestamp='1400340525' post='2453069']
You must have very long fingers!! the furthest my little finger will stretch keeping my thumb in one place is fret 3
[/quote]

My hands aren't that large at all; note that I play the 5th with my ring finger not my little finger because without moving my hand much I have a longer reach using that finger (maybe a further half inch or so).

[Grangur]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1400350137' post='2453150']
My hands aren't that large at all; note that I play the 5th with my ring finger not my little finger because without moving my hand much I have a longer reach using that finger (maybe a further half inch or so).
[/quote]

With your thumb on the centre of the hump on the back of the neck, you can use that as a pivot point and move your fingers up and down the neck and get a longer reach.
With your thumb over the top of the neck, as shown here, anyone will struggle

[HowieBass]

Yeah I do have my thumb on the back of the neck and playing the F#, Bb, C# progression on the E and A strings I don't need to move my thumb at all (it stays roughly under the 1st fret position). I don't know whether this helps the OP or not but I find it easier to use my ring finger to fret the C# rather than my little finger because I have more strength in the ring finger; my little finger gets used more for reaching octaves on the D and G strings (from roots played on the E and A).

[SaxyBassist]

Yep I too have my thumb in the middle of the back of the neck and I pivot, it never moves up like in that picture. I really just do not have much of a stretch and the only way I can stretch is by angling my wrist awkwardly - and I don't want to do that a) because it's very tense and and puts wrist at a severe angle and then I'll get carpal tunnel (had that before years ago - developed by itself) and b ) because it hurts!

Bear in mind Im 55 and a pretty weedy female, I have started and stopped playing bass over 3 years because of this problem and I often think I'm not physically made to play the bass!! I've had a couple of different professional bass playing mates glance over when visiting and say my hand positioning is okay but just watch that tension so I've spent the last month working hard on a the lightest touch for fretting that I can and a relaxed hand to avoid tension.

My hands are a medium glove size so I haven't got small hands, but I'm determined not to give up as I've seen some tiny little girl players on youtube with child size hands who can barely stretch over 2 low frets! playing really well, not to mention the guy with one finger! So I'm not sure how else to play legato on the low end without being able to stretch over 4 frets - maybe I'll just carry on and see if it irons itself out

Edited May 18, 2014 by SaxyBassist

[hubrad]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1400414450' post='2453569']
With your thumb on the centre of the hump on the back of the neck, you can use that as a pivot point and move your fingers up and down the neck and get a longer reach.
With your thumb over the top of the neck, as shown here, anyone will struggle

[/quote]
Quite so.. if you've never tried this it can be surprising how much extra reach you gain!

[Grangur]

[quote name='SaxyBassist' timestamp='1400417873' post='2453601']
Yep I too have my thumb in the middle of the back of the neck and I pivot, it never moves up like in that picture. I really just do not have much of a stretch and the only way I can stretch is by angling my wrist awkwardly - and I don't want to do that a) because it's very tense and and puts wrist at a severe angle and then I'll get carpal tunnel (had that before years ago - developed by itself) and b ) because it hurts!

Bear in mind Im 55 and a pretty weedy female, I have started and stopped playing bass over 3 years because of this problem and I often think I'm not physically made to play the bass!! I've had a couple of different professional bass playing mates glance over when visiting and say my hand positioning is okay but just watch that tension so I've spent the last month working hard on a the lightest touch for fretting that I can and a relaxed hand to avoid tension.

My hands are a medium glove size so I haven't got small hands, but I'm determined not to give up as I've seen some tiny little girl players on youtube with child size hands who can barely stretch over 2 low frets! playing really well, not to mention the guy with one finger! So I'm not sure how else to play legato on the low end without being able to stretch over 4 frets - maybe I'll just carry on and see if it irons itself out
[/quote]

I'm fairly new to bass too, but it sounds to me like it's just tension in your hands and wrists. I believe you'll get there. I'm 55 too (this month) and it's taken me 3 years of on and off attempts at feeble fret-rattling to get something like a slap-bass sound, but it's coming. One day I'll also get rid of the flying fingers too, it just takes time. Keep on going at it. Get comfortable and play slow and relax. Don't wind yourself up and it'll come.

[size=4]If you want lessons Mike in Chelmsford is a good guy. He's listed in the Tutors section. I recon you'll be ok though.[/size]

[HowieBass]

One thing to consider here is how well is your bass set up? If you have a high action it'll be harder to fret and in particular if the nut slots aren't deep enough you'll find it harder at the top of the neck, plus trying a lighter gauge string means more compliance (lower tension) which might make playing that much easier. Having your bass set up properly can make an enormous difference to playability.

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1400444351' post='2453967']
I'm fairly new to bass too, but it sounds to me like it's just tension in your hands and wrists. I believe you'll get there. I'm 55 too (this month) and it's taken me 3 years of on and off attempts at feeble fret-rattling to get something like a slap-bass sound, but it's coming. One day I'll also get rid of the flying fingers too, it just takes time. Keep on going at it. Get comfortable and play slow and relax. Don't wind yourself up and it'll come.

If you want lessons Mike in Chelmsford is a good guy. He's listed in the Tutors section. I recon you'll be ok though.
[/quote]

Thanks I'm not giving up this time, I've just had quite a good session this afternoon playing jazz standards - working on staying in one position using the three different scale starting points..... I have all this knowledge rattling round in my head as a jazz saxophonist and teacher, so it's just mastering the physical technique of this strange alien stringed instrument thingy

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1400445197' post='2453975']
One thing to consider here is how well is your bass set up? If you have a high action it'll be harder to fret and in particular if the nut slots aren't deep enough you'll find it harder at the top of the neck, plus trying a lighter gauge string means more compliance (lower tension) which might make playing that much easier. Having your bass set up properly can make an enormous difference to playability.
[/quote]

Reasonably well, and I've been told it plays pretty well (when I'm not on it lol!) - but I'll get someone to check my string gauge as I have no idea what is on there at the moment!

[Old_Ben]

I would recommend going really slow like at 35 bpm for 5 minutes, then up it by 10 bpm every 5 minutes, until it becomes an issue to make the note transition smoothly, then go all the way back down to 35 bpm, and repeat till your numb in the face. it's an annoying chore, but going back to basics this way can highlight to yourself where your going wrong.
If it's not a technique issue with your hand positioning then this may help get through any stuttering hand issues. Persistence is key to improve, as frustrating as it may be to go back to basics like this, it may help in the long run!

Also recording yourself through a laptop webcam might help show you if your doing anything your not aware of that might be holding you back!

Edited May 19, 2014 by Old_Ben

[SaxyBassist]

[quote name='Old_Ben' timestamp='1400528050' post='2454718']
I would recommend going really slow like at 35 bpm for 5 minutes, then up it by 10 bpm every 5 minutes, until it becomes an issue to make the note transition smoothly, then go all the way back down to 35 bpm, and repeat till your numb in the face. it's an annoying chore, but going back to basics this way can highlight to yourself where your going wrong.
If it's not a technique issue with your hand positioning then this may help get through any stuttering hand issues. Persistence is key to improve, as frustrating as it may be to go back to basics like this, it may help in the long run!

Also recording yourself through a laptop webcam might help show you if your doing anything your not aware of that might be holding you back!
[/quote]

Thanks, will try that [size=4] [/size]