How low do you need to go?

[LukeFRC]

Here's an interesting one.... esp for the cab builders....

How low do you need to go? I'm thinking we all like big lows, but by the time our rig is closer to a stage monitor than a FOH then a big low end is actually a negative in terms of the mix.... people play with small combos with relatively high tuning, my old cab I think was tuned about -3 at 95Hz..... and one of the best tone's i've ever had was a small powered PA wedge (DSP equipped) tuned down to -3dB 80Hz.....

my current cab is -3db at 41Hz and -6dB at 31Hz....

[Phil Starr]

I think that's a great question. Cab design has concentrated on all the stuff below 200Hz because that's the bit the mathematical models and design software address. The bit the box designers control. Then I go in to gigs and roll off the lower frequencies to get the best sound for the band. It's obviously better to have a perfect sound and then shape the lower end but the expensive and bulky bit of amplifying bass is the bottom octave which we can barely hear.

If you've not done this before it is worth listening to 41 and 31 Hz http://plasticity.szynalski.com/tone-generator.htm if you start at 1000Hz and scan down the sound disappears, you can't really hear low B fundamental in any practical sense, so why do we make such a fuss?

To make it a fair test use headphones, your computer speakers won't go that low in all probability.

[chrismuzz]

I actually tend to cut the bass a little bit, even when tuning down to A. Especially on my old Markbass 4x10 that claimed a frequency range from 35Hz! The 'bigness' of the sound is all in the mids anyway, and too much bass tends to make things a bit muddy.

Edited May 23, 2014 by chrismuzz

[Musicman20]

[quote name='chrismuzz' timestamp='1400832777' post='2457299']
I actually tend to cut the bass a little bit, even when tuning down to A. Especially on my old Markbass 4x10 that claimed a frequency range from 35Hz! The 'bigness' of the sound is all in the mids anyway, and too much bass tends to make things a bit muddy.
[/quote]

+1 - Lot's of 'lows' and low bass really doesn't work for me. Low mids/ top of upper bass are where the punch is...IMO/IME.

[chrismuzz]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1400834080' post='2457313']
+1 - Lot's of 'lows' and low bass really doesn't work for me. Low mids/ top of upper bass are where the punch is...IMO/IME.
[/quote]

For some reason my old Laney 2x10 combo always sounded amazing boosting around 300Hz

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1400829653' post='2457272']
If you've not done this before it is worth listening to 41 and 31 Hz [url="http://plasticity.szynalski.com/tone-generator.htm"]http://plasticity.sz...e-generator.htm[/url] if you start at 1000Hz and scan down the sound disappears, you can't really hear low B fundamental in any practical sense, so why do we make such a fuss?

To make it a fair test use headphones, your computer speakers won't go that low in all probability.
[/quote]

I used to be obsessive about lows being a 5-stringer and wanting some "fundamental" but using a QSC amp cured me of this as I could play around with its HPF which could be off-25hz-50hz. I found that even the 50hz setting made no audible difference even on the low B other than the absence of excessive speaker cone movement. I would even say that anything below 70ish hz is of questionable musical value and that most people who think they can hear and need stuff in this range are deluding themselves as to what they are really hearing when they hear "bass".

One thing that had me fooled was main hum - I though because I could clearly hear it on occasion by various mean that I was actually hearing 50hz when in reality I was hearing harmonics thereof. Try listening to a pure 50hz sine wave and making any musical sense of it.

Edited May 23, 2014 by bassman7755

[Michael J]

If you want it to sound "natural" then your system needs to extend about an octave either side of the range of interest, with no massive humps or peaks in the response, no woeful dips, nice and flat (when fed with a flat signal), and low distortion. Anything else is not a speaker, it's an effects box - which is fine if you want that effect... Most music/pa amplifiers and cabs are effects boxes.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Michael J' timestamp='1400837039' post='2457348']
If you want it to sound "natural" then your system needs to extend about an octave either side of the range of interest, with no massive humps or peaks in the response, no woeful dips, nice and flat (when fed with a flat signal), and low distortion. Anything else is not a speaker, it's an effects box - which is fine if you want that effect... Most music/pa amplifiers and cabs are effects boxes.
[/quote]

Well in the case of an electrical instrument, the "effect" provided by actual physical cabs is the natural sound.

[Michael J]

Exactly. What does an electric guitar sound like?

[LawrenceH]

For electric bass, the 'natural'/'reference'/'typical' sound is arguably a recorded signal, direct into a nice channel strip complete with HPF and various sources of dynamic compression/limiting at tracking, (and tape), mixing and mastering stages, then back out through hifi speakers (with further LF rolloff) or (more recently) headphones. It definitely doesn't exactly correspond with the the electrical output from the pickups at any rate!

Bass guitar gives a very musically-pleasing sound through my sealed stage monitors, the -3/-6 points on those must be pretty high. I am becoming more and more of a fan of the gradual rolloff even at the expense of overall midbass levels.

[JPJ]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1400836265' post='2457340']
I used to be obsessive about lows being a 5-stringer and wanting some "fundamental" but using a QSC amp cured me of this as I could play around with its HPF which could be off-25hz-50hz. I found that even the 50hz setting made no audible difference even on the low B other than the absence of excessive speaker cone movement.
[/quote]

I can only echo what Bassman7755 says here. I've just moved over to a QSC powered rig and currently run it with the low cut filter set at 50hz. The sound difference on the low B is negligible and even less so 'in the mix' on stage. The lack of excessive cone movement is however reassuring. Looking at our set list, most of what we play is in either A or D with an occasional trip down to G. Accordingly, the extreme low end is of less importance than the low end of the mid range as its this that I'm trying to pick out from the mush of guitars and drums on stage.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The f3 of a Fridge is 58Hz, and few complain about lack of lows. With drop tuning you might need as low as a 40Hz f3. Those who are aware of the fundamental frequency of their lowest note often think that they need a speaker capable of going that low, but that's not the case, as most of what's actually in the signal is harmonics. Most players who don't have any training in acoustics will be off by a full octave between what they're hearing and what they [i]think [/i]that they're hearing. Raggae has the deepest tone of mainstream genres, and to hear it one might conclude that most of its energy is in the 40-80Hz octave, but actually it's in the 80-160Hz octave. In concert the 40-80Hz octave might be more present than in a recording, but that's due to the contribution of PA subs and a heavy hand on the PA console EQ.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[dincz]

My current preamp has a 75Hz high pass filter. Initiallly I got all fired up about modifying it for 40Hz, modelled the required component changes in Spice, and then after hearing the minimal audible difference the standard filter makes to a bass, decided I can't be bothered.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1400855692' post='2457618']
My current preamp has a 75Hz high pass filter. Initiallly I got all fired up about modifying it for 40Hz, modelled the required component changes in Spice, and then after hearing the minimal audible difference the standard filter makes to a bass, decided I can't be bothered.
[/quote]Do it anyway, not for tone purposes, but to limit driver excursion below the useful frequency range and cut down on thump noise.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1400829653' post='2457272']
I think that's a great question. Cab design has concentrated on all the stuff below 200Hz because that's the bit the mathematical models and design software address. The bit the box designers control. Then I go in to gigs and roll off the lower frequencies to get the best sound for the band. It's obviously better to have a perfect sound and then shape the lower end but the expensive and bulky bit of amplifying bass is the bottom octave which we can barely hear.

If you've not done this before it is worth listening to 41 and 31 Hz [url="http://plasticity.szynalski.com/tone-generator.htm"]http://plasticity.sz...e-generator.htm[/url] if you start at 1000Hz and scan down the sound disappears, you can't really hear low B fundamental in any practical sense, so why do we make such a fuss?

To make it a fair test use headphones, your computer speakers won't go that low in all probability.
[/quote] I just bought some new headphones... not high end audiophile ones but some nice sony buds. When I bought the I looked at frequency response charts on a load of different models and these ones are nice as they are fairly flat across the mid range... any way I doubt theres that that many headphones that can go that low meaningfully...
[quote name='Michael J' timestamp='1400837039' post='2457348']
If you want it to sound "natural" then your system needs to extend about an octave either side of the range of interest, with no massive humps or peaks in the response, no woeful dips, nice and flat (when fed with a flat signal), and low distortion. Anything else is not a speaker, it's an effects box - which is fine if you want that effect... Most music/pa amplifiers and cabs are effects boxes.
[/quote] I was about to write a comment working out what the range of that ideal speaker would actually be but then thought that actually

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1400847470' post='2457478']
The f3 of a Fridge is 58Hz, and few complain about lack of lows. With drop tuning you might need as low as a 40Hz f3. Those who are aware of the fundamental frequency of their lowest note often think that they need a speaker capable of going that low, but that's not the case, as most of what's actually in the signal is harmonics. Most players who don't have any training in acoustics will be off by a full octave between what they're hearing and what they [i]think [/i]that they're hearing. Raggae has the deepest tone of mainstream genres, and to hear it one might conclude that most of its energy is in the 40-80Hz octave, but actually it's in the 80-160Hz octave. In concert the 40-80Hz octave might be more present than in a recording, but that's due to the contribution of PA subs and a heavy hand on the PA console EQ.
[/quote] a fridge is a sealed cab so would have a shallower roll off than a ported cab I guess? when you design a cab for bass Bill do you focus on the low end roll off or making the 80-160Hz range sound good?

[dincz]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1400858941' post='2457674']
Do it anyway, not for tone purposes, but to limit driver excursion below the useful frequency range and cut down on thump noise.
[/quote]

I normally run with the filter switched on anyway. For limiting LF driver excursion, wouldn't 75Hz be even better? It's 12dB/octave by the way.

[Tdw]

I think its good for a cab to be able to produce the lowest parts of the sound, after all if you want less bass onstage pretty much any amp has controls which can reduce the lows sent to the cab, but if youre playing through your amp with no PA for example you cant make sub bass come from a high tuned cabinet, of course to some people this may not matter at all because they never want much low bass. Also there are different cabs for different situations.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1400863939' post='2457737']
I normally run with the filter switched on anyway. For limiting LF driver excursion, wouldn't 75Hz be even better? It's 12dB/octave by the way.
[/quote]At 12dB/octave it would, and partly explains why you don't hear it all that much. Most high pass filters are 18dB.
[quote]Bill do you focus on the low end roll off or making the 80-160Hz range sound good? [/quote]Where the low end is concerned I go for about a 50Hz corner, where tone is concerned mids are what matters.

[Lozz196]

Interesting re "the fridges", plus Ashdowns speakers seem to operate only down to about 70Hz as well, and they`re seen on many stages all over the place, with many pros using them. As above, tone is in the mids.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1400870538' post='2457807']
Interesting re "the fridges", plus Ashdowns speakers seem to operate only down to about 70Hz as well, and they`re seen on many stages all over the place, with many pros using them. As above, tone is in the mids.
[/quote]

apparently my mag 810 goes to 37hz! weird?

andy

[Lozz196]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1400871868' post='2457827']
apparently my mag 810 goes to 37hz! weird?

andy
[/quote]

Yeah, the MAG range seem to go lower then the ABMs, which are their higher-end range. Rather odd, or maybe not seeing the comments from others re mids and high-pass filters.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1400871868' post='2457827']
apparently my mag 810 goes to 37hz! weird?

andy
[/quote]is that -3dB at 37hz, -6dB at 37hz, -10db at 37hz or what? it's almost meaningless as a number without that!

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1400884951' post='2457996']
is that -3dB at 37hz, -6dB at 37hz, -10db at 37hz or what? it's almost meaningless as a number without that!
[/quote]

tbh i dnt know, doesnt seem to say anywhere on the ashdown site.

andy

[Raslee]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1400847470' post='2457478']
The f3 of a Fridge is 58Hz, and few complain about lack of lows.

Raggae has the deepest tone of mainstream genres, and to hear it one might conclude that most of its energy is in the 40-80Hz octave, but actually it's in the 80-160Hz octave.
[/quote]

Yes I used my Fridge for the first time at a festival gig with a reggae band yesterday, certainly had good enough lows for me. The main factor was maintaining those lows, with definition when getting into dub territory, and at higher volumes and the Fridge handled that well. I've had cabs that go very low with ports etc but as said above the energy appears to be at 100hz for me for the low end and the Fridge did this nicely without sounding too wooly and handling the low B too.
Bloody heavy beast though...well according to the festival roadies at least (Will probably be up for sale end of summer )