Help with choosing speakers

[coasterbass]

Afternoon,

I've recently sold my Ampeg rig to clear the decks, and I've now got my SVP and Eden preamps which I love to death.
I'm now trying to work out which speakers to buy, and its soooo confusing. I've posted a couple of questions around this issue but haven't actually asked the question 'what should i check out'... so here it is.

For 90% of my gigs I DI straight to desk, which is why I got the preamps. I don't need to fill venues with stage volume, however, some gigs need you to have a kick in the back to know you're there, and also I'm getting fed up of practicing at home with headphones! I run the amps in series, with the Eden as clean and the Ampeg as dirty with FX in a loop, so something that can handle this is needed. I play rock/pop covers.

What I'm after is something that can give the balls of an Ampeg rig, with that bass that comes through your feet, and also able to articulate the mids. Sadly my car is small so I was considering 2x 2x10's, but I'm open to suggestions. Light is good, but not essential... compact is better, particularly the depth.

For Bergantino I need to go to Leamington, Camden for Eden, and for Schroeder I need to go to Brighton, and a million other places for each manufacturer.

Can anyone point me towards what I'm looking for and what I should hear?? Equally, if anyone has any of this type of gear in the London area and is doing public gigs then please let me know as I'd love to hear them.
In particular if anyone has tried something like the Berg 2x10 and the Schroeder 1210 I'd be very interested to hear their thoughts.

Thanks

N.

[wateroftyne]

Your requirements are screaming 'Schroeder 1210!!' at me...

I should quantify that my saying this is just based on what I've read here and on TB.

[Hamster]

I've long been considering the merits of a pair of ACME low B-2's They might fit the bill. I think Alex & CK have owned these.

Hamster

[warwickhunt]

Unfortunately there is no replacement for displacement so you are 'never' going to get the kick that a big multiple driver cab can give without... loads of drivers

It's always going to be a compromise and though I'd dearly have loved to get a couple decent sized 2x10s as my gigging backline, I've settled on a pair of Aggie 1x12s which, though they'll never give me the trouser flap of my 6x10 they give me sufficient ooomph to be a standalone rig when not using PA support. They have sufficient volume to give enough bottom end without being overly large to transport.

You probably already know the number of quality cabs that are available and I've no doubt everyone will have a different suggestion. The Aggies combined with my Thunderfunk give me a full sounding punchy tone but they aren't the cleanest neutral sounding cabs in the world but then I've come to realise that a neutral transparent tone isn't what I want

[Master blaster]

i highly recommend GK cabs. They're pretty ugly but they have tons of balls!

[Delberthot]

People will generally tell you to go for whatever they have. I personally think that you should ignore them and get a Schroeder 1212L

Its small, light and powerful. I can comfortably use mine as a monitor one night and have it going out front without a PA the next.

I didn't go and try one, I took the chance and ordered it directly with Jorg. Its the best cab i have ever owned and it replaced 2 Ashdown ABM115s.

It will never give you the deep rumbling bass that you get with bigger cabs but I wanted a clear sounding cab and this is exactly what I got.

[Rumble]

I've had a Berg 2x10 for a few weeks now after having two Agi 112's and I have to say that I've been mightily impressed. Like Warwickhunt says, the Agi's have quite a mid-scoop so aren't really that transparent, but give a lovely warm sound that'll fill the air with bassy goodness! The Berg is more transparent and cleaner but without being sterile. It has plenty of low end and lovely true highs. The mids aren't harsh like I've heard on some cabs either and I certainly find it easy enough to hear myself in the mix. Add to all this that it's an easy carry and I'm really chuffed with it. There's even one for sale on this forum.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='243182' date='Jul 19 2008, 03:17 AM']People will generally tell you to go for whatever they have. I personally think that you should ignore them and get a Schroeder 1212L [/quote]
Says the man telling you to buy what he has got
I have listed most of the currently available 1x12 cabs on the [url="http://wiki.basschat.co.uk/info:amps:lightweight_cabs"]basschat wiki [/url]so it might be worth taking a look at that. The small Schroeders have a big peak in the mids to increse percieved volume. If you like that sort of thing buy one.

Edited July 19, 2008 by bass_ferret

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='Delberthot' post='243182' date='Jul 19 2008, 03:17 AM']People will generally tell you to go for whatever they have. I personally think that you should ignore them and get a Schroeder 1212L

Its small, light and powerful. I can comfortably use mine as a monitor one night and have it going out front without a PA the next.

It will never give you the deep rumbling bass that you get with bigger cabs but I wanted a clear sounding cab and this is exactly what I got.[/quote]

Absolutely Get a 1212L. That's what I've got.

+1 to all of the above.

If you want the kick of an 8x10 you'll need a wardrobe sized box but the closest you can get from a small cab will be Schroeder 1210 or 1212. I've owned both although I've never directly compared them. From the reviews I've read, the 1212 has a slightly rounder sound and a little more bass extension, but both have the aforementioned mid hump which cuts through any mix and probably the most punch you'll get from a small box.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='243258' date='Jul 19 2008, 10:59 AM']Absolutely Get a 1212L. That's what I've got.

+1 to all of the above.

If you want the kick of an 8x10 you'll need a wardrobe sized box but the closest you can get from a small cab will be Schroeder 1210 or 1212. I've owned both although I've never directly compared them. From the reviews I've read, the 1212 has a slightly rounder sound and a little more bass extension, but both have the aforementioned mid hump which cuts through any mix and probably the most punch you'll get from a small box.[/quote]

Yeah, wot they said.
Ive got both a 1210R and 1212L and agree with all thats been said about them. They might not be the ideal tone, especially when standing near them but out front the sound does thicken up without loosing the clarity and they get the job done.
I feel that when these cabs get described as having a mid bump it can put some people off (it made me think a bit harder before ordering my 1210R) but these cabs seem to loose that once the sound has travelled a bit off stage and can sound very thick out front in the room.
There is a recording here of my first time out with my 1210R and a LMII (on loan at the time).
[url="http://myspace.com/wellah1"]1210R + LMII[/url]

Nick.
While i am in London we don't really do any public gigs and i don't store my gear at home, i keep both my rigs with different drummers but if for any reason i do have them at my work place you are welcome to come and have a play.

Edited July 21, 2008 by dave_bass5

[coasterbass]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='244332' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:18 AM']Yeah, wot they said.
Ive got both a 1210R and 1212L and agree with all thats been said about them. They might not be the ideal tone, especially when standing near them but out front the sound does thicken up without loosing the clarity and they get the job done.
I feel that when these cabs get described as having a mid bump it can put some people off (it made me think a bit harder before ordering my 1210R) but these cabs seem to loose that once the sound has travelled a bit off stage and can sound very thick out front in the room.
There is a recording here of my first time out with my 1210R and a LMII (on loan at the time).
[url="http://myspace.com/wellah1"]1210R + LMII[/url]

Nick.
While i am in London we don't really do any public gigs and i don't store my gear at home, i keep both my rigs with different drummers but if for any reason i do have them at my work place you are welcome to come and have a play.[/quote]

Thanks for this - much appreciated !
Schroeders certainly seem very popular

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='244342' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:37 AM']Thanks for this - much appreciated !
Schroeders certainly seem very popular[/quote]

They are popular but also an acquired taste. You will also find that some cabs get brought and sold quite a bit on BC so it may appear that there are more owners than there really is. At least, thats how i see it.
Ive had a love hate relationship with my 1210R since i got it. For my other band i wanted something better (both bands are more or less the same line up, instrument wise and for a while i was using the same rig with both) so i tried a few other cabs, including a UL212 and UL15 but after being forced to downsize slightly when our drummer left i went and got the 1212L and am very, very happy with it.
Its fuller and warmer than the 1210R (not really a lover of 10"s as i play with a pick and find a 10" can be a bit bright) and it really does fill out the dance floor well with some nice smooth low end while at the same time being very clear on stage. I find that sometimes my 1210R can be too loud on stage. most fo the gigs im not going through the PA much so its my rig providing most of the bass sound. Having the volume up so its sitting nice out front can mean its quite loaud on stage and with the mid bump thing going on it can actually get annoying. Depends on the gig and the room etc of course.
Its not the deepest sounding cab but the low end is clean and clear. both my 12XX's work very well on wooden hollow stages as well (at least, compared to any other cab i have used). I guess part of thats down to the restricted low freq's but they are nice and tight.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='243239' date='Jul 19 2008, 10:28 AM']I have listed most of the currently available 1x12 cabs on the [url="http://wiki.basschat.co.uk/info:amps:lightweight_cabs"]basschat wiki [/url][/quote]
Nice work, ta. I've added the Zoot 112 sensitivity (99dB) as it's not listed in their site yet.

Edited July 21, 2008 by johnnylager

[martinbass7750]

Here's my twopence worth:

For smaller gigs I use an EBS neo210 with the Eden WT405 - plenty of mid range punch and now I've gone from 5 string to back 4, the bottom end is pretty good too.

When I need more power I add an EBS neo212 to the above rig which ups the volume loads and puts some deep bass in. I found I needed the depth with a 5 string.

Both cabs are reasonably small and light - but at the end of a gig I prefer to use a hand truck to get them back to the car!

Have fun choosing!

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='244342' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:37 AM']Thanks for this - much appreciated !
Schroeders certainly seem very popular[/quote]

I've just noticed the Gallery have Schroeders listed now. Might be worth giving them a call to see if they have anything you could try.
Price wise they don't seem to be brilliant. £70 more than i paid for my 1212L from SHX music and that included delivery.

[coasterbass]

Thanks again everyone.

I must say the midbump in the Schroeders does worry me a little, along with the comments about them sounding poor at home/requiring to be run at stage volume to perform.
Has anyone used both the Schroeders and Bergs and can offer an A/B opinion ?

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='244566' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:54 PM']Thanks again everyone.

I must say the midbump in the Schroeders does worry me a little, along with the comments about them sounding poor at home/requiring to be run at stage volume to perform.
Has anyone used both the Schroeders and Bergs and can offer an A/B opinion ?[/quote]

I dont think they need to be run at stage volume, just in a band situation.
I quite like my 1212L even on it own. Compared to my 1210R its a bit more round and full sounding. Less of the mid bump.
We are on 3rd gen versions now and they have been refined quite a bit over the past couple of years according to all the things i have read and what Jorg has told me.
the tweeter is smoother now, the earlier ones could sound quite harsh.

You do need to hear one from out front to realise that what you hear on stage/close up is not normally what the audience hears, due to the way the mids tend ot fall off a bit and let the lows come through more.
Still, they aren't conventional sounding cabs and not for everyone. I originally only got 1210R because i needed something small enough to fit on the back seat of my drummers car, next to a bass drum and a guitarist. There really wasnt anything around that would do it other than the Schroeder.
Then about a month ago when my drummer left my other band i had to get rid of my UL212 and get something smaller. The 1212L seemed to obvious choice as i knew the size was fine but had got used to a 2x12. Saying that the UL212 and 1212L sound totally different. I loved the UL212 on its own but felt it didnt cut through enough at loud gigs.

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='244332' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:18 AM']There is a recording here of my first time out with my 1210R and a LMII (on loan at the time).
[url="http://myspace.com/wellah1"]1210R + LMII[/url][/quote]

Wow great sound. Which bass are you using on that?

Edit. Just looked at the pic on Myspace. Is it the Highway P?

Sorry for crashing your thread Coasterbass

Edited July 21, 2008 by AndyMartin

[bass_ferret]

Want the Schroeder sound? Not cutting through? Walk over to your amp and turn the mids up

But seriously, I often wonder at the EQ settings that some people use.

[51m0n]

Two Bergantino ae210s. Really. They are only 12" deep!!!!

Having said that the ae410 is very very very small for a 410. It fits in the boot of my 10 year old BMW 3 series (either just or perfectly depending upon your point of views )

It is also more than capable of kicking you over

Edited July 23, 2008 by 51m0n

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='244651' date='Jul 21 2008, 06:17 PM']Wow great sound. Which bass are you using on that?

Edit. Just looked at the pic on Myspace. Is it the Highway P?

Sorry for crashing your thread Coasterbass[/quote]

Cheers.
tis indeed a HW1 but a Jazz. I guess as we were trying for the Tribute angle it should have been a P but i didnt own one and wasn't going to get one just for that.
Some of the gigs i even used my 55-01 :-o, now of course i play a P all the time.

That 1210R can produce some very nice thick rock tones as well as sounding clear and punchy. I could see beer jumping about in the pint glasses on the tables just by the side of the stage. Made it all seem worthwhile.

[The Funk]

I have a pair of Acme B2s and an Acme B1.

They are designed to faithfully reproduce the sound of your bass/preamp without adding their own colour. They go very low, have very clear mids thanks to their dedicated mid-range driver and the highs are clear and smooth.

The cabs are also relatively affordable as you buy direct from the company.

On the downside, the B2s are not that shallow. You would need a big power amp to drive a pair (although power amps aren't that expensive anymore and all you'd need is 500W per cab). They are pretty light though.

The B1s are pretty small but go just as low as the B2s. A pair of them would be enough for some gigs (but then a single B2 would be cheaper).

I like the idea of your dual preamp set-up: I think all you need really is cabs that go low, have clear mids and are as faithful to the incoming signal as possible.

All of us are just telling you of our experiences with our own cabs. I know you were looking for ways to compare different high end cabs. I don't know anyone or anywhere that has all these different cabs available to try out. I suppose at the next Bass Bash, we could try to do some proper reviews comparing different types of basses, amps, cabs and effects.

Good luck with your search.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Want the Schroeder sound? Not cutting through? Walk over to your amp and turn the mids up[/quote]

For once, I agree. Rather than lug my rig to practices I've been using a simple graphic eq (GEB-7) to eq the somewhat poor amp at the rehearsal studio. Eq'd it to get exactly waht I wanted (or as near as possible with said amp), and got a darn good approximation of the Schroeder sound.

[quote]But seriously, I often wonder at the EQ settings that some people use.[/quote]

Tell me about it! I was playing at a wedding ceremony on the weekend (guitar), and the bass player had a ridiculously oversized Hartke rig. His eq was set to a smiley face and the tone clearly rolled off on his bass (unlined fretless). It was quite an unpleasant listening experience, both tone wise and playing wise. Particularly when sitting next to the amp.

Re: the main question, I've tried both Berg's and Schroeders, and have played through Epifani and Markbass once or twice. The 'best' sound comes from the Bergs, they are essentially PA cabs set up and tuned for bass; they have a more refined sound than Schroeders (to my ears). However Schroeders cut through a mix exceedingly well due to the strong mid voicing, and they don't obscure the other instruments due to the low end drop off. I'd say Berg's sit in a mix better than they cut (though as we've said you can easily eq to sort that out as they are more or less pretty flat across a wide frequency range), whilst Schroeders cut through better than they sit (but quite coloured). If that makes sense.*

In short, Schroeders are very coloured in their sound, Berg's are not (by comparison). If you like the Schroeder sound, then there's not much need to change (like me). If you want as much potential tone in your rig as possible, you're better off with something more transparent like the Berg's.

Mark

* - Please note that this is just my opinion as to what happens and why. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='246724' date='Jul 24 2008, 11:25 AM']For once, I agree. Rather than lug my rig to practices I've been using a simple graphic eq (GEB-7) to eq the somewhat poor amp at the rehearsal studio. Eq'd it to get exactly waht I wanted (or as near as possible with said amp), and got a darn good approximation of the Schroeder sound.



Tell me about it! I was playing at a wedding ceremony on the weekend (guitar), and the bass player had a ridiculously oversized Hartke rig. His eq was set to a smiley face and the tone clearly rolled off on his bass (unlined fretless). It was quite an unpleasant listening experience, both tone wise and playing wise. Particularly when sitting next to the amp.

Re: the main question, I've tried both Berg's and Schroeders, and have played through Epifani and Markbass once or twice. The 'best' sound comes from the Bergs, they are essentially PA cabs set up and tuned for bass; they have a more refined sound than Schroeders (to my ears). However Schroeders cut through a mix exceedingly well due to the strong mid voicing, and they don't obscure the other instruments due to the low end drop off. I'd say Berg's sit in a mix better than they cut (though as we've said you can easily eq to sort that out as they are more or less pretty flat across a wide frequency range), whilst Schroeders cut through better than they sit (but quite coloured). If that makes sense.*

In short, Schroeders are very coloured in their sound, Berg's are not (by comparison). If you like the Schroeder sound, then there's not much need to change (like me). If you want as much potential tone in your rig as possible, you're better off with something more transparent like the Berg's.

Mark

* - Please note that this is just my opinion as to what happens and why. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.[/quote]

I dont agree with some of that.

Part of the Schroeder sound comes from the small boxes, its not just about EQ. And also the Schroeders are very loud cabs, again i expect due to the smaller size box.

Having had a UL212 for over a year and also using my 1210R with the same head during this time i know there is no way i could have got the UL212 to sound like either the 1210R or the 1212L that replaced the UL212. both 2x12 cabs but both very different sounding and the 1212L was louder. At quiet home levels then maybe i could get close using just EQ but at gig levels, standing on stage both 2x12 sound very different.

I do agree that raising the mid will help cut through and yes, EQ can go a long way in sorting out many issues.

And this is just IME & IMHO of course. Its what ive heard with my ears and im quite open to the fact that they might not be working right all the time.

[51m0n]

you should note that the Berg range differ quite alot.

The older HT series stuff us uber hifi. Requires quite powerful amp to get the most of some say.

The HS series was an effort to reuire less oomph to drive them. Was successful, used old skool magents, weighed alot, rather less hifi than the previous ones.

The new AE series stuff is similar to HS stuff but is lighter (neo drivers) but has been revoiced to go lower (my ae410 is rated to 40Hz, and really does go that low I'm sure).

The AE410 has been described as somewhere between an Epifani 410 with a bit of Schroeder mid (in fact its more like not having the Epi super deep loud bass making the mids feel a bit shy). It definitely sits in a mix beautifully, and when you dig in a bit it barks like a rottweiller on heat Best cab I'ver heard or played....