Fake Britain. Shure Microphones

[yorks5stringer]

My genuine SM 58 bought at least 10 years ago was made/assembled in Mexico

[vmaxblues]

I use an old battered SM58, and it is a good solid workhorse, a mate of mines band bought a cheaper brand that were supposed to be much better, salesman told them the Shure was 30 year old technology and out of date. Another mate of mine 'in the biz' told me, 'maybe, but the reason they get used is they will take the punishment, some of these 'better' ones once dropped will die'.

Guess what, he was right, as their stumble bum lead singer dropped them they broke.

So, if you can get a genuine one...

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401447519' post='2463692']
But is the fake really an inferior product? The SM58 is a decades old design so I doubt it would be particularly difficult to make a well-performing copy. Has anyone ever conducted detailed comparative testing?
[/quote]

The problem is that fake products, especially fake electrical products, often do have serious faults and flaws that would not be present on the genuine article. Customs are constantly seizing product which has been shipped to the UK (usually from China). There's been plenty of shows about it. Because the genuine article gives you some recall if there's a fault, they are made to a higher standard, and meet regulations.

[flyfisher]

I'm not trying to deny or defend fake products in any way. My criticism of that programme is that it was superficial fluff (at best). The above comments alone suggest that fake SM58s are not (always) as bad as that programme tried to make out, which is hardly surprising since 30+ year old technology is unlikely to be particularly difficult to copy.

As for fake products having serious faults and flaws, well yes but that's not confined to fake products is it? Plenty of genuine products are recalled every year because of manufacturing or design faults. Here's just one example from yesterday's news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27628484

So, buying genuine is no guarantee of a perfect product - as this website shows: http://www.recalls.gov/

I'm just trying to inject a bit of perspective.

[timmo]

I guess the problem with fakes is the variable quality. Ok, some genuine articles are questionable, but there should be some recourse if it fails. If you get electrocuted from a dodgy fake, where do you go ?

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401447519' post='2463692']
But is the fake really an inferior product? The SM58 is a decades old design so I doubt it would be particularly difficult to make a well-performing copy. Has anyone ever conducted detailed comparative testing?
[/quote]

Mic and recording forums are frequently abuzz (geddit?) with stuff like this, much as we might ask whether a Sue Ryder or a J&D is as good as a Squier or a MIM.

Whether or not the fakes are any good, people have been saying 'New Shures are crap' for a very long time. There's a correspondingly healthy trade in old Shure Unidynes and contemporary competitor AKG's, Sennheisers etc, simply because they fit with the idea that old is good.

For example, I have a watch on the bay for Sennheiser MD121's. These rarely come in under £220-250 for an obsolete dynamic mike that sometimes requires an expensive XLR converter jack and a weird proprietary stand clip. There aren't many around and most buyers have never heard one so the 121 becomes a 'holy grail'.

Rather like the old 409 mic that guitarists want on their cabs because 'SRV used one'; these come in around £350-400 and God knows if the counterfeiters are slipping some into the market.

Edited May 30, 2014 by skankdelvar

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401469300' post='2463986']
I'm not trying to deny or defend fake products in any way. My criticism of that programme is that it was superficial fluff (at best). The above comments alone suggest that fake SM58s are not (always) as bad as that programme tried to make out, which is hardly surprising since 30+ year old technology is unlikely to be particularly difficult to copy.

As for fake products having serious faults and flaws, well yes but that's not confined to fake products is it? Plenty of genuine products are recalled every year because of manufacturing or design faults. Here's just one example from yesterday's news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27628484

So, buying genuine is no guarantee of a perfect product - as this website shows: http://www.recalls.gov/

I'm just trying to inject a bit of perspective.
[/quote]

Yeah, the thing with a genuine flawed item is that you can phone up the manufacturer and say "what the hell!?". You're very unlikely to be able to do that with a fake one. I wouldn't be too worried about a mic anyway, I'd be more concerned with fake iPhone chargers, and the like. Like you said - 30 year old technology isn't hard to produce very cheaply today.

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1401469855' post='2463997']
Rather like the old 409 mic that guitarists want on their cabs because 'SRV used one'; these come in around £350-400 and God knows if the counterfeiters are slipping some into the market.
[/quote]

They likely are if they think they can make a quick £400.

[Happy Jack]

Finally got a chance to watch that clip - dreadful, tabloid TV masquerading as something serious.

My heart really goes out to all those bands playing 100,000-seater stadia who bought a cheap copy on eBay. As you do.

Flyfisher is bang-on with his comments about the "scientific testing" (pah!), and of course the article carefully steered clear of the real issue ... money.

Why do people buy cheap copies on eBay? Erm ... because they're cheaper than the real thing.

So why not tell us the price of a real SM58 and the typical price of a fake one?

Whichever way you look at it, that's a key part of the "rip-off" equation, perhaps THE key part.

Shure have been making a fortune out of the SM58 for years, which is absolutely fine with me - it's a great product, even if I prefer my (totally genuine) Beta 57A (which I bought new from an authorised dealer and paid full price for).

But if you're clever enough or lucky enough to have a product become the industry standard, there's no point being surprised if the market floods with copies, especially when the price of your genuine product remains stubbornly high.

Shure's actual response seems not to have been to make silly TV programs but to sharply reduce their prices, e.g. http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Shure-SM58-with-Boom-Mic-Stand-and-6m-Cable/C39

Hats off to them. That's the right way to deal with fakes - make them uneconomical.

[Oopsdabassist]

Bought my Sennheiser E845 new from a proper shop about 10 years ago, I still prefer it to an SM58. Co-incidentally, our drummer seems quite chuffed with his Shure he got off Ebay.....seems very light to me........drummers eh?

[Zenitram]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1401469855' post='2463996']
If you get electrocuted from a dodgy fake, where do you go ?
[/quote]

To ground?

[flyfisher]

. . . in a box.

[essexbasscat]

I've taken a few mics to Shure HQ at Waltham Abbey, Essex (not very far away) for authentication. They've been first class and more helpful than many. Highly recommend their service.

Edited May 30, 2014 by essexbasscat

[flyfisher]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1401471713' post='2464019']
Yeah, the thing with a genuine flawed item is that you can phone up the manufacturer and say "what the hell!?". You're very unlikely to be able to do that with a fake one.
[/quote]

Of course, which is why the genuine article is usually so much more expensive. Manufacturers don't offer warranties out of generosity - they keep careful track of returns and costs of repairs/replacements and simply include those costs in their pricing models. Not much different than buying expensive extended warranty insurance really.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1401476186' post='2464086']
I've taken a few mics to Shure HQ at Waltham Abbey, Essex (not very far away) for authentication. They've been first class and more helpful than many. Highly recommend their service.
[/quote]

Do they let you keep the mic if it turns out to be an illegal counterfeit?

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401476380' post='2464092']
Do they let you keep the mic if it turns out to be an illegal counterfeit?
[/quote]

Both my mics were authentic, so didn't encounter this situation. It wasn't discussed.

[Roger2611]

Our vocalist brought a brand new SM58 for £40.00 unsurprisingly it was a fake, the first obvious difference was the weight, the fake weighed a fraction of the the original we have, it sounded ok, don't know how long it would have lasted, he chucked it away because it was a fake.....£40.00 for a brand new SM58 what was he expecting...what is it they say..."if it sounds too good to be true...." muppetry if you ask me

[dannybuoy]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401476380' post='2464092']Do they let you keep the mic if it turns out to be an illegal counterfeit?
[/quote]

They wouldn't have the right to confiscate it any more than John Hall would have the right to barge into people's homes and confiscate their Rickenfakers!

[flyfisher]

Yes, I've often wondered about that but I'm sure I've read new reports of shipments of counterfeit goods being confiscated by police in 'pursuit of their enquiries'.

Certainly, anyone thinking about selling on a fake SM58 should think twice . . .
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/env_services/tradingstandards/fake_goods/punishment.htm

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='rubis' timestamp='1401441929' post='2463582']
Me too, I'd like an SM57 for recording guitars and I'm very wary about them
[/quote]

It's a real pity that there are fakes. I have a '57 that I bought sometime in the 1990s. It's still going perfectly, and is a very useful microphone. I've had it through all sorts of stages of my music and recording life, and it's been good for all sorts of things. Everything from talking books to recording a chainsaw. It cost me £95 way back then, which would be a lot more now. But it's been really good value. A genuine '57 or '58 nowdays is a real bargain. If anyone wants a cheaper mic, they can buy a Behringer XM1800 which should be at least usable and cost absolutely nothing. No reason to buy a fake.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[MiltyG565]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401476334' post='2464090']


Of course, which is why the genuine article is usually so much more expensive. Manufacturers don't offer warranties out of generosity - they keep careful track of returns and costs of repairs/replacements and simply include those costs in their pricing models. Not much different than buying expensive extended warranty insurance really.
[/quote]

I prefer to think of it like this - the higher cost of a genuine item comes from a greater level of quality control and investment in development. When you make a product, such as Planet Waves/D'Addario does, where you can offer a lifetime guarantee, you need to be pretty confident that nearly all your products are meeting your, an everybody's, high standards.

[flyfisher]

You may prefer to think of it like that, and manufacturers definitely prefer you to think of it like that, but the facts of the matter are that no mass produced items are 100% reliable over their intended operating lifetime and the costs incurred in fixing those that do fail are included in their list price.

Otherwise, why would expensive, high quality products need to be offered with a warranty at all?

So no, you don't have to be confident that your products won't fail in order to offer a lifetime warranty, you just have to be confident that your list price includes enough to cover the cost of repairs/replacements. In short, customers are paying for an extended warranty insurance policy - in exactly the same way that you can buy a warranty for a used car.

But of course manufacturers like to wrap it all up in PR guff to promote customer-friendly feelings of high-quality, reliability etc.

I'm not suggesting any of this is a bad thing, just explaining the way it is. Some people like 'reassuringly expensive' things, others will prefer to buy cheaper - the market will cater for all tastes.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1401483721' post='2464199']
I prefer to think of it like this - the higher cost of a genuine item comes from a greater level of quality control and investment in development. When you make a product, such as Planet Waves/D'Addario does, where you can offer a lifetime guarantee, you need to be pretty confident that nearly all your products are meeting your, an everybody's, high standards.
[/quote]

In every company there's an office. In that office is a see-saw with a bloke at each end. One screams 'Profit' and the other one screams 'QC', then all their mates barge in shouting about built-in obsolescence and company reputation and EBITDA and responsibility. One chap may pipe up about 'morals and fairness' and everyone else will turn on him and administer a physical beating of unparalleled savagery.

Then an elderly lady comes round with the tea-trolley and they all have a mug of splosh and a nice Bath bun. Then it starts all over again and goes on forever.

This is how big business works. Fact.

[flyfisher]

I fear you may be a bit behind the times old chap - I'm pretty sure tea trolleys went out of fashion in the 70s (unfortunately).

But other than that, you're bang on, as usual.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401490818' post='2464298']
I fear you may be a bit behind the times old chap - I'm pretty sure tea trolleys went out of fashion in the 70s (unfortunately).
[/quote]

Really? They should be re-introduced. For one thing they stop the drones wandering off to the kitchen every five minutes and wasting valuable company time. One tea break at 11, one at 3:30. Mug on your desk at any other time? Instant dismissal. That's the way we do things here at DvOmNicorp.

And why do we have to have all these lights on? Tell the staff to pay for their own damn bloody torches. Whiners.