Count Bassy Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1401473046' post='2464031'] Finally got a chance to watch that clip - dreadful, tabloid TV masquerading as something serious. My heart really goes out to all those bands playing 100,000-seater stadia who bought a cheap copy on eBay. As you do. Flyfisher is bang-on with his comments about the "scientific testing" (pah!), and of course the article carefully steered clear of the real issue ... money. Why do people buy cheap copies on eBay? Erm ... because they're cheaper than the real thing. So why not tell us the price of a real SM58 and the typical price of a fake one? Whichever way you look at it, that's a key part of the "rip-off" equation, perhaps THE key part. Shure have been making a fortune out of the SM58 for years, which is absolutely fine with me - it's a great product, even if I prefer my (totally genuine) Beta 57A (which I bought new from an authorised dealer and paid full price for). But if you're clever enough or lucky enough to have a product become the industry standard, there's no point being surprised if the market floods with copies, especially when the price of your genuine product remains stubbornly high. Shure's actual response seems not to have been to make silly TV programs but to sharply reduce their prices, e.g. [url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Shure-SM58-with-Boom-Mic-Stand-and-6m-Cable/C39"]http://www.gear4musi...nd-6m-Cable/C39[/url] Hats off to them. That's the right way to deal with fakes - make them uneconomical. [/quote] There is a difference between a copy and a counterfeit. The thing is that counterfeits aren't actually that cheap. They are pretending to be the real thing and tend to sell for a good price for the real thing. Eg an SM58 might be £90, and a counterfeit £65 I.e. "a bargain" if you think yo're buying the real thing, but you're not! Copies are up front that they are not an actual Shure (or whatever), and might sell for around £30 - 40. You pay your money for brand 'X', and get brand X. No deception, no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cytania Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Are Shure cracking down on copies? Studiospares used to have own brand sm58/57 alikes but they've all disappeared this year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telebass Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1401444512' post='2463626'] I don't get all the fuss about the SM58. We have Shure and AKG in the rehearsal space and I use an AKG D5 over the SM58 every time. The highs aren't as rolled off as the SM58 which makes it sound more airy and open and the D5 seems to have a better low frequency response and a lower frequency reach (which is nicer for bass cabs and guitar amping). With a little bit of research on the comparisons, the D5 often comes out on top too. It's also approx. £20-30 cheaper than the SM58. It won't stop people from sticking to what they know though ;-) [/quote] Agreed, will get a D5 next time I need a mic. I originally bought a 57 for vocals. Perfectly good. Only use a 58 because a) they're a bit tougher than a 57, and it was a freebie that just needed a new top on. I just might use the 57 tonight instead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Working on the basis that i have a Maplin cheapy mic made in the PRC that i've used for sometime and that appears to be very comparable to the Shure SM58 in sound then it seems that most copies nowadays are becoming difficult to detect...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='cytania' timestamp='1401520366' post='2464365'] Are Shure cracking down on copies? Studiospares used to have own brand sm58/57 alikes but they've all disappeared this year... [/quote] Fame MS57 is still available it seems. http://www.dv247.com/microphones/fame-ms-57-dynamic-instrument-microphone--203386 I've never tried one. Reviews seem good. E.g. http://eugene-getman.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/shure-sm57-vs-fame-ms-57-do-you-really.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='Number6' timestamp='1401531189' post='2464449'] Working on the basis that i have a Maplin cheapy mic made in the PRC that i've used for sometime and that appears to be very comparable to the Shure SM58 in sound then it seems that most copies nowadays are becoming difficult to detect...... [/quote] Copies aren't difficult to detect - they don't have Shure written on them! Counterfeits do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1401494451' post='2464321'] There is a difference between a copy and a counterfeit. The thing is that counterfeits aren't actually that cheap. They are pretending to be the real thing and tend to sell for a good price for the real thing. Eg an SM58 might be £90, and a counterfeit £65 I.e. "a bargain" if you think yo're buying the real thing, but you're not! Copies are up front that they are not an actual Shure (or whatever), and might sell for around £30 - 40. You pay your money for brand 'X', and get brand X. No deception, no problem. [/quote] Fair comment - I'm happy to agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1401535260' post='2464492'] Copies aren't difficult to detect - they don't have Shure written on them! Counterfeits do. [/quote] Agreed however a poor choice of words on my part.....my main point is that the counterfeit quality is improving so much more difficult to tell apart from the real thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marillionred Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Occasionally use couple of the Studiospares 57-alikes on guitar amps at gigs - sound fine to my jaded ears. Did once get sold a fake SM58 from eBay, seller pleaded ignorance but fully refunded me. Narrow escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I found the programme rather disappointing too - started OK demonstrating the counterfeit packaging (so we knew it was definitely an attempt to deceive) but then, as FF says, there was no proper scientific comparison. It wouldn't have been so bad if they'd illustrated issues with mics by singing round the side of them (again, an SM58 isn't going to be mute if you sing into the side of it) or doing a handling noise demonstration, and then conducted actual scientific comparisons on each and shown how they did, but there was no sign of that. Because I'm the only one in the band who ever spends any money on PA etc, I bought a set of Behringer XM1800s (box of three for £30 or so) which were intended for backing vocals but we use them for lead vocals too. Perhaps not the best but definitely good enough for the average pub gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 The issue of 'best' is an interesting one, especially in the context of the SM58. Do we really believe that a 30/40 year old design is still the 'best' these days? And why should a cheaper mic be inferior? Pretty much all other electrical/electronic goods have become ridiculously cheap over the past 30 years, so why not mics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 (edited) [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401547639' post='2464628'] The issue of 'best' is an interesting one, especially in the context of the SM58. Do we really believe that a 30/40 year old design is still the 'best' these days? And why should a cheaper mic be inferior? Pretty much all other electrical/electronic goods have become ridiculously cheap over the past 30 years, so why not mics? [/quote] There are a number of reasons why a cheaper microphone could be inferior. The SM58 and most other microphones mentioned in this thread are moving coil microphones. Worse materials might not unreasonably result in a diaphragm and coil that need to have higher mass and therefore inertia in order to be sufficiently robust. It's a 30/40 year old design and any patents will have expired. But, if what makes the SM58 good is that it uses reasonable materials, that would mean that cheaper copies might still not be as good, as the lower cost doesn't allow the use of as good quality materials. It might also be the case that a higher price allows better QC. Again, being able to use the design might help there. And for something simple like a moving coil microphone, it could be that the design is fairly well optimised, and there are no real improvements to be made. Like an adjustable spanner. Edited May 31, 2014 by Annoying Twit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 "Industry standard" is not necessarily the same as "best", qv. Fender Precision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 The other thing to consider of course is that counterfeit goods will regularly find their way back to the supposed manufacturer for warranty repairs. That leaves the manufacturer with the awkward job of telling the customer that they don't have any kind of warranty as they've bought a fake. I'll give you two guesses who the equipment owner takes it out on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 All good points, though I'd pick up on the example of 'worse materials' for the moving coil/diaphragm. I agree that worse materials would likely have a deleterious effect but my real point was than over the course of 30/40 years there's a very real chance that better materials are actually available, possibly also at lower cost, making it possible to build a counterfeit mic that actually performs BETTER than the genuine article. Anyway, interesting subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telebass Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1401550862' post='2464673'] "Industry standard" is not necessarily the same as "best", qv. Fender Precision. [/quote] [Thread hijack] Unlike! [/thread hijack] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Bassy Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 [quote name='icastle' timestamp='1401551776' post='2464684'] I'll give you two guesses who the equipment owner takes it out on... [/quote] The drummer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401554918' post='2464717'] All good points, though I'd pick up on the example of 'worse materials' for the moving coil/diaphragm. I agree that worse materials would likely have a deleterious effect but my real point was than over the course of 30/40 years there's a very real chance that better materials are actually available, possibly also at lower cost, making it possible to build a counterfeit mic that actually performs BETTER than the genuine article. Anyway, interesting subject. [/quote] Some reviews claim that the Akai D5, and even the Behringer XM8500, are superior to the SM68. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dave Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Odd , isn't it. We seem to live in a world where folk want to pay 80 quid for a T shirt , manufactured by poor Chinese kids who should be at school , because it's an official product of some fancy Euro fashion house. They want to do that BECAUSE it's 80 quid !! It's the pose. The exact same t shirt costing a tenner isn't good enough for them and they wouldn't be seen dead in it. Then those self same people go home , rip off musicians with a few illegal downloads and watch a 2 quid copy of Iron Man they got down the boot sale !! Hardly surprising in a 'label buying ' atmosphere like that that rip off items pop up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Martin Barre says in his Gear history that he bought a Gibson Les Paul Custom back in 1970 that turned out to be a fake.. 'it was a fake and didn’t stay in the collection very long! But I used it on Benefit.' I've never listened to that album and thought there was anything wrong with the guitar tones - did the fakeness matter to anyone but Martin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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