Replacement 18" driver

[chriswareham]

I want to replace the original driver in my 1965 Vox Foundation bass cabinet with something that can handle a bit more power. The existing driver works fine, but I'm now using an attenuator to push my amp harder and I'm worried that if the attenuator fails the sudden increase in power will destroy the driver immediately as it's only rated for 50W. I've looked all over the web, but can't find any new 18" drivers that are specifically for bass guitar - they all seem to be for PA applications. The most likely looking candidate I;ve come across is this:

http://www.electromarket.co.uk/speakers-audio-equipment/parts-components/bass-mid-drivers/cca0033

The accompanying blurb says it's suitable for bass and guitar, but I'm worried that's a standard description they slap on all their drivers. I've also looked at getting a Peavey Black Widow, since I used to have an 1820 cabinet that had an 18" driver in it, but can find no reference to them anywhere on Peavey's website.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Do a thread search about driver replacement and you'll find reference after reference that you can't just plop a driver into a cab and get a good result. They must be matched. As for not seeing bass dedicated eighteens, that's because with the driver technology that's existed for the last 15 years or so you can now find tens that have higher output and lower response than vintage eighteens, while eighteens have poor highs and virtually no dispersion in the mids. In short, we no longer use eighteens because we don't have to.
Chances are your cab is undersized for an eighteeen anyway, and would work better loaded with a twelve or fifteen. Exact internal dimensions would be required to determine what would work best.
The driver you linked to is, frankly, a POS. Don't even think about using that.

[VTypeV4]

That driver looks a bit suspect to me altough it's tricky to say without a full spec. I'm quite sure you'll not get the same sound from it either as i looks like a rather cheap speaker if I'm honest.

if it was mine and I was looking to upgrade then i'd be on the hunt for the old 100w 18" Celestion or Goodmans with the really heavy cast frame, 3" coil and big magnet as it's period and may sound similar to your existing driver. If you wanted to go a bit further the only other driver I can think of thats a 'full range' 18 and is up to the job is the old JBL E155 which is a great speaker but rather weighty.

Not sure about the old 18" Peavey BW, I don't have the specs for it, sorry.

[BassBunny]

Funnily enough a mate of mine had the same problem with exactly the same cab. He plays in a 60's band and needs the authenic look. We ended changing th 18 for a 15 after a bit of WinSD modeling. If i can find the original data and the driver we used, I will let you know. End result was pretty damn good.

Edited May 30, 2014 by BassBunny

[Balcro]

Hi chriswareham,

All is not lost. I may have the perfect solution in the form of the best preserved (i.e barely used) Celestion G18-C in the world.

It's a 100w version, but could be 15ohms - can't be sure until I take the back of the home-built cabinet. Fundamental resonance is 35Hz. Bought by me from a shop in Tottenham Court Rd in about 71/72. I carried it home via the underground and rail to Hornchurch in Essex. To this day I have a weak back and very long arms which have never reverted to their original length!

Since then it probably hasn't been used for more than 50 hours and always stored in the house, not even in a garage. We have builders in at the moment, so the enclosure is underneath "other stuff" behind me.

If you can give me a couple of weeks, I'll investigate the Ohms rating. The deal is, if you want it, it's yours, but you'll have to take the enclosure & speaker together.

Balcro.

[chriswareham]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1401468383' post='2463976']
Do a thread search about driver replacement and you'll find reference after reference that you can't just plop a driver into a cab and get a good result. They must be matched. As for not seeing bass dedicated eighteens, that's because with the driver technology that's existed for the last 15 years or so you can now find tens that have higher output and lower response than vintage eighteens, while eighteens have poor highs and virtually no dispersion in the mids. In short, we no longer use eighteens because we don't have to.
Chances are your cab is undersized for an eighteeen anyway, and would work better loaded with a twelve or fifteen. Exact internal dimensions would be required to determine what would work best.
The driver you linked to is, frankly, a POS. Don't even think about using that.
[/quote]

Thanks for the advice. I was aware that drivers have to be matched to the cabinet, but in the case of the Vox Foundation they allegedly made the cabinets to the size they wanted (to match the AC50 head) and just bunged in a speaker without concerning themselves whether it was an ideal match. I only bought the cabinet because Peter Hook had one as his first speaker, and subsequently found out he hated it as his Sound City and Hiwatt heads sounded terrible through it. I guess either his was damaged or that I must play at a much lower volume than he did, as I love the sound of mine!

By the way, the internal dimensions of the Vox Foundation are 52cm wide, 62cm tall and 36cm deep, although the baffle does slope back slightly.

Edited June 15, 2014 by chriswareham

[chriswareham]

And here's the beast itself, sat under my heavily modified Sound City 120:

Edited January 29, 2015 by chriswareham

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1402850442' post='2477229']
in the case of the Vox Foundation they allegedly made the cabinets to the size they wanted (to match the AC50 head) and just bunged in a speaker without concerning themselves whether it was an ideal match.
[/quote]In 1965 they had no way of knowing. Use of Theile/Small parameters was in its infancy, and was not widely known until a decade later. A modern 1x18 is about twice that net volume, and is properly ported.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Chris, what are you trying to get out of this and what do you want to preserve? Is it the sound or the look or the authentic original speaker.

Taking the driver out will obviously preserve it but the cab won't be original any more and the sound will change. You could take it out temporarily I suppose and returrn the cab to original condition should you wish to sell.

Putting any other driver in will change the sound. As you've found out no-one makes a wide range 18 any more and you wouldn't use a box that size with most 18's currently sold. A modern 15 would outperform your 18 in every way except it won't sound like the original. your box would work well with a wide range of 15's and you could fit a second panel (baffle) behind the original to fix the new speaker to without having major surgery on your vintage cab.

[ash]

I'm having the same problem, my speaker cab is an earlier Vox 18" from '64 - the amp is a very loud AC50 and they are an original set. The 18" sounds great at low volumes but is underpowered for the amp ( I suspect it was used in a pair) I believe the original Celestion speaker is only rated at 50 watts. Been looking at the Fane Sovereign range which cost around £125 for the 18" and state they are suitable for bass guitar in small enclosures. If anyone has a 100 watt Celestion 18" knocking around I'd be interested though. Added a picture of my Vox stack and the type of Celestion.

There's a good site about Vox Foundation cabs here -

http://www.voxac50.org.uk/index_07.htm


Very interesting thread by the way.

Edited July 17, 2014 by ash

[ash]

By the way with regard to the Soundlab speaker in your original posting, these aren't great speakers as others have suggested and would be very different from the original speaker both in terms of build quality and sound. You would also need to adapt your cab to fit it. Look elsewhere if you want something to better what you've got.
Cheers

Edited July 3, 2014 by ash

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='ash' timestamp='1404382451' post='2492052']
I'm having the same problem, my speaker cab is an earlier Vox 18" from '64 - the amp is a very loud AC50 and they are an original set. The 18" sounds great at low volumes but is underpowered for the amp ( I suspect it was used in a pair) I believe the original Celestion speaker is only rated at 50 watts. Been looking at the Fane Sovereign range which cost around £125 for the 18" and state they are suitable for bass guitar in small enclosures. If anyone has a 100 watt Celestion 18" knocking around I'd be interested though. Added a picture of my Vox stack and the type of Celestion.

There's a good site about Vox Foundation cabs here -

[url="http://www.voxac50.org.uk/index_07.htm"]http://www.voxac50.org.uk/index_07.htm[/url]


Very interesting thread by the way.
[/quote]Hi Ash,
I enjoyed the thread you attached. This is off at a tangent somewhat. Around 10 years ago I owned a mid '60s B15N...it had a few issues (like most vintage gear that has come my way!) but had an after market alnico JBL 15 in it. I remember thinking what a nice cab it was, it had the slot ported reflex design with the double baffle I think. What with all the info available could there be any mileage in doing a portaflex cab replica in Vox cosmetics? Could be nice with an AC50 driving it and at least then there's all the homework done by other people as to what current Eminence would work in that cab type.
All the best,
Martin

[ash]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1404384202' post='2492082']
Hi Ash,
I enjoyed the thread you attached. This is off at a tangent somewhat. Around 10 years ago I owned a mid '60s B15N...it had a few issues (like most vintage gear that has come my way!) but had an after market alnico JBL 15 in it. I remember thinking what a nice cab it was, it had the slot ported reflex design with the double baffle I think. What with all the info available could there be any mileage in doing a portaflex cab replica in Vox cosmetics? Could be nice with an AC50 driving it and at least then there's all the homework done by other people as to what current Eminence would work in that cab type.
All the best,
Martin
[/quote]

Hi Martin, how you doing? Thanks for the info. My second plan of action was to keep the original cab as is and get a more modern cab and 'pimp' it with Vox speaker cloth etc. to retain the look. There are plenty of nice lightweight cabs out there with suitable vinyl finishes - I admit I had thought of using a Markbass however and just leaving it as is - that would be a meeting of old and new to make the purists wince wouldn't it?

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='ash' timestamp='1404384630' post='2492089']
Hi Martin, how you doing? Thanks for the info. My second plan of action was to keep the original cab as is and get a more modern cab and 'pimp' it with Vox speaker cloth etc. to retain the look. There are plenty of nice lightweight cabs out there with suitable vinyl finishes - I admit I had thought of using a Markbass however and just leaving it as is - that would be a meeting of old and new to make the purists wince wouldn't it?
[/quote]Hiya Ash, I'm not bad mate. I'll be using the '72 tele / slab P from hell a week on Saturday at a Rockabilly gig; I ought to be doing Pilates and Alexander technique in anticipation of wearing the bloody thing! Still psyching myself up for that ex-Druid bass thread...
Good idea regarding retro-ing up a new cab design, you can just use the original for Sunday best, lip-syncing on TOTP or whatever.If you have the time or inclination you could build one, maybe? I made a DIY 1x15 last year, Mr Balcro helped out greatly with the specs and didn't recoil in laughter when I emailed the photos of the finished article. The woodwork (12mm ply) and hardware came to about £70, it came together easily as Travis Perkins did a great job of the cutting list. If I had more time and money I'd be intrigued about doing a DIY copy of a Fender Showman tone ring cab.
Keep us posted,
Martin

[chriswareham]

[quote name='ash' timestamp='1404382451' post='2492052']
I'm having the same problem, my speaker cab is an earlier Vox 18" from '64 - the amp is a very loud AC50 and they are an original set. The 18" sounds great at low volumes but is underpowered for the amp ( I suspect it was used in a pair) I believe the original Celestion speaker is only rated at 50 watts. Been looking at the Fane Sovereign range which cost around £125 for the 18" and state they are suitable for bass guitar in small enclosures. If anyone has a 100 watt Celestion 18" knocking around I'd be interested though. Added a picture of my Vox stack and the type of Celestion.

There's a good site about Vox Foundation cabs here -

[url="http://www.voxac50.org.uk/index_07.htm"]http://www.voxac50.org.uk/index_07.htm[/url]


Very interesting thread by the way.
[/quote]

Hi Ash,

There was a mint condition Celestion 18" speaker up on eBay a couple of weeks ago. It didn't sell for the original BIN of £80, so the seller then put it back on at £100 and surprisingly it sold. I'd held off buying it as the seller had some negative feedback that looked a bit worrying. However, there is a guy on eBay that's selling Peavey cabs pimped to look like old Vox ones and he had a 2x15" last time I looked.

Edited July 4, 2014 by chriswareham

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1404494674' post='2493250']
Hi Ash,

There was a mint condition Celestion 18" speaker up on eBay a couple of weeks ago. It didn't sell for the original BIN of £80, so the seller then put it back on at £100 and surprisingly it sold. I'd held off buying it as the seller had some negative feedback that looked a bit worrying. However, there is a guy on eBay that's selling Peavey cabs pimped to look like old Vox ones and he had a 2x15" last time I looked.
[/quote]

Apparently loaded with Black Widows which are generally quite tough, the 1502DT found in most peavey bass cabs is pretty 'standard issue' but I'd be happy to use one.

[Balcro]

Calling chriswareham!

Calling chriswareham!

Over & Out.


Balcro