Wayward-Wanderer Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Hiya, Recently I decided that it was time to stop blowing up the speakers in my Marshall guitar stack and actually buy a bass stack. This made sense as i have only ever really wanted to play bass, but was sidetracked by the fake glory of playing guitar. My playing style is very mixed, i play a lot of jazz and funk, as well as contemptary Indie; So there is a big mix between fat bottom mud, and slap-happy treble. My set-up bass-wise, is a Fender 51 telecaster bass remake by squier (And i will hold to it until the end of days that it should be a squier its just to damn good!) and a few Bose pedals (the ones that actually matter). My previous bass amps have been just borderline "mehhhh" on good days, but at there worse they have been massive piles of elephant sh*t and deserve to be hurdled out my 3 story window. I can't tell you that my first practice amp was a peavey something 15 watt, and that didn't do treble at all and it over heated all the time. Which gave it the award of the best Bass amp throw out of window whilst slighty on fire. Next i was gifted... no thats not the right word gift implies something good, so i guess i was given "with much regert on my part" a Peavey 1x15 combo. this had its on EQ, but no matter my incoherent fiddling with them it still produced the same mediocre sound and distorted on C#. That i gave to a friend which was then sold for drug money, for his presonel use. So then came my move from the US of-goddamn these people are ridculusly stupid-A to the fine but a bit to slighty under water have the time England. I then discover the wonders of good amplication with Trace Elliot, and I am yet to try Ashdown but i believe these to brands will be rated highly in my humble opinion. I think i will be looking for these 2 brand for my first stack. I have a limited budget of about 600£ to try to get a full sized stack. Does anyone have a suggestion as to what model cabs to get? I don't mind have a combo to start and then getting another cab underneath. Also if there are any other makes of bass amp that aren't a cavelcade of mediocrity that i haven't seen/ heard of it would be brilliant if you could inform me. thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 You could get a Hartke HA3500 and a 4x10 cab for £600 - perfect for your style requirements! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward-Wanderer Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 I'll have to give Hartke a try, i haven't heard much about them in the local scene i'm in. I'll give them a go and let you know what i think about them. Thank you for giving me another reason to get down to my local guitar shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmansky Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 get down to your local music store and try everything but remember what you hear instore and out gigging or jammin is worlds apart.the old trace gear is better than the new(not just my opinion)so for £600 you could get a great secondhand rig,also lots of ahdown gear for sale on here as well as others if you decide not to buy new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 There's an Ashdown ABM 500 amp and matching 8x10" cab on here for £700, big, bassy, bargain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 Nice intro Look at the second hand market - £600 is not a lot for a stack. Hartke and Ashdown are a bit marmite - loved and hated by many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan_da_man Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 I'd buy a Peavey Tour 450 or 700 for the head. For the cab I'd get a Hartke 410XL or Warwick WCA 410 Pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayward-Wanderer Posted July 19, 2008 Author Share Posted July 19, 2008 Thanks for all the help guys. I will be trying out Hartke and ashdown on monday i might do a bit of a review for each (I'm a journalist in training ) As well i officially blew one of the speaker in my Marshall 4x12 @steve-soar, could you send me a link to the 8x10? I just want to have a look at it, but i don't want to go for something that big yet. I only have a chevy matiz so i have need something a bit more transportable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I'd say £600 is plenty for your first stack. I jsut recently bought two heads off here and Ashdown 300 and Hartke 400 plus a Hartke 2x10 and an ashdown 15 all for £270. Some people will tell you they are crap and others that they are great. Personally I love the sound, its all obviously personally subjective. I have been playing through a 300 watt Trace Elliott till I bought this lot and to be honest it all sounds good. Peavey's are ultra reliable but for me lack something in the sound, I'm not saying they sound bad I just don't like the sound they produce. I would say for your first stack you should be able to pick up a 15, a 4x10 and a decent amp second hand easily for 600. Have a look on this forum and also on ebay. The Peavey 450s are going for peanuts on there make sure you try loads before you buy, take your time spending your money and enjoy the Gas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Dont mix cabs with different size drivers. If you need two cabs get two the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='243665' date='Jul 20 2008, 09:59 AM']Dont mix cabs with different size drivers. If you need two cabs get two the same.[/quote] I would say thats a personal thing, like anything else with equipment, whatever sounds poor to someone elses ears may sound great to yours. I myself for instance can't stand the sound of 12s with a bass through them, equally I don't like the sound of a guitar put through a 15 or a 10. Just go round the stores ad try lots of combinations out then try to seek out what you want second hand, your 600 should go pretty far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='243665' date='Jul 20 2008, 09:59 AM']Dont mix cabs with different size drivers. If you need two cabs get two the same.[/quote] [quote name='ianrunci' post='243741' date='Jul 20 2008, 12:42 PM']I would say thats a personal thing, like anything else with equipment, whatever sounds poor to someone elses ears may sound great to yours.[/quote] No it is a scientific fact, ask any acoustic engineer. That people say they get a great sound despite this scientific fact - thats personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 The only scientific fact I am interested in when Im playing is what my ears tell me. Who is an acoustic engineer to tell me what a great sound is lol. I know what I like. Sound is all personal opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='243893' date='Jul 20 2008, 04:41 PM']No it is a scientific fact, ask any acoustic engineer. That people say they get a great sound despite this scientific fact - thats personal opinion.[/quote] I think you're oversimplifying this. Although you cannot easily predict how non-matching cabs will combine this does not mean that they cannot sound good. It is feasible for the differences in frequency response, both magnitude and phase, once combined, to result in a more balanced sound when using two non-matching cabs compared to using two of either model. But its not predictable and needs testing on case by case basis. The scientific fact is that you don't need a combination of small speakers (usually 10"s) and big speakers (usually 15"s) to get both treble, mids and bottom in a nice balanced way, so it would be nice if old wives tales along these lines ended. But to make a blanket statement that you should never mix speaker sizes if said speakers do not have a full crossover to split the frequency spectrum between them is to spread yet more disinformation - it is not scientific fact. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='243917' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:02 PM']I think you're oversimplifying this. Although you cannot easily predict how non-matching cabs will combine this does not mean that they cannot sound good. It is feasible for the differences in frequency response, both magnitude and phase, once combined, to result in a more balanced sound when using two non-matching cabs compared to using two of either model. But its not predictable and needs testing on case by case basis. The scientific fact is that you don't need a combination of small speakers (usually 10"s) and big speakers (usually 15"s) to get both treble, mids and bottom in a nice balanced way, so it would be nice if old wives tales along these lines ended. But to make a blanket statement that you should never mix speaker sizes if said speakers do not have a full crossover to split the frequency spectrum between them is to spread yet more disinformation - it is not scientific fact. Alex[/quote] Whets science got to do with anything. this is music your sound is different from his sound is different from my sound etc etc. Who is to say which sound is better. Is mark kings sound better than some of the old mowtown tunes, possibly if you like mark kings sound Its all subjective to personal taste, you can add math until your head explodes but it wont make your sound better to my ears than mine whether your using a laney head or a boutique head with gold knobs on. heh heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 OK I stand corrected, but I think Bill may have a stronger view on this. [quote name='alexclaber' post='243917' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:02 PM']It is feasible for the differences in frequency response, both magnitude and phase, once combined, to result in a more balanced sound when using two non-matching cabs compared to using two of either model. But its not predictable and needs testing on case by case basis.[/quote] The phase response in particular is unlikely to sound better, unless of course the cabs have been designed to work together. I would expect that the improvements often ascribed to mixing cabs are far more likely to be the result of lifting the top cab closer to the ears. What I disagree with is "expert" opinion telling people they need a 1x15 and 2x10 or 4x10. It would be interesting to check this out at a bash but I never seem to get to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='ianrunci' post='243922' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:10 PM']Whets science got to do with anything. this is music your sound is different from his sound is different from my sound etc etc. Who is to say which sound is better. Is mark kings sound better than some of the old mowtown tunes, possibly if you like mark kings sound Its all subjective to personal taste, you can add math until your head explodes but it wont make your sound better to my ears than mine whether your using a laney head or a boutique head with gold knobs on. heh heh[/quote] Ian, I'm agreeing with you dammit! Re-read my post! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='243929' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:24 PM']OK I stand corrected, but I think Bill may have a stronger view on this. The phase response in particular is unlikely to sound better, unless of course the cabs have been designed to work together. I would expect that the improvements often ascribed to mixing cabs are far more likely to be the result of lifting the top cab closer to the ears. [b]What I disagree with is "expert" opinion telling people they need a 1x15 and 2x10 or 4x10.[/b] It would be interesting to check this out at a bash but I never seem to get to one.[/quote] I would agree with that bit, but I would also agree with the same of telling people NOT to mix them either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='243947' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:48 PM']Ian, I'm agreeing with you dammit! Re-read my post! Alex[/quote] ] Yeah I know Alex, I wasn't really responding to what you said, just quoting you to make my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='243929' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:24 PM']What I disagree with is "expert" opinion telling people they need a 1x15 and 2x10 or 4x10.[/quote] I agree with you there. However... [quote name='bass_ferret' post='243929' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:24 PM']OK I stand corrected, but I think Bill may have a stronger view on this. The phase response in particular is unlikely to sound better, unless of course the cabs have been designed to work together. I would expect that the improvements often ascribed to mixing cabs are far more likely to be the result of lifting the top cab closer to the ears. It would be interesting to check this out at a bash but I never seem to get to one.[/quote] I'm sorry but you obviously don't understand what I'm saying. The human ear is not at all sensitive to absolute phase response - it is completely immaterial. Frequency response is a vector with both magnitude and phase. When summing output it has to be done as a vector calculation with complex numbers, resulting in a total magnitude and phase response (though you can ignore the resulting phase, magnitude is all that matters). If this sum results in a more appealing response to your ears whilst still achieving a reasonable gain in sensitivity through increased radiation impedance then I don't believe it matters in the slightest how you've mixed your speaker/cab sizes/designs etc. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='243955' date='Jul 20 2008, 05:59 PM']I'm sorry but you obviously don't understand what I'm saying. The human ear is not at all sensitive to absolute phase response - it is completely immaterial. Frequency response is a vector with both magnitude and phase. When summing output it has to be done as a vector calculation with complex numbers, resulting in a total magnitude and phase response (though you can ignore the resulting phase, magnitude is all that matters). If this sum results in a more appealing response to your ears whilst still achieving a reasonable gain in sensitivity through increased radiation impedance then I don't believe it matters in the slightest how you've mixed your speaker/cab sizes/designs etc. Alex[/quote] I think I do understand - although its been difficult to get chapter and verse on this from the experts, Bill likes sweeping statements like oil and water dont mix Take the example I have used [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=22504&st=0&start=0"]here[/url] and the ABM cabs. ABM 115 Frequency Response 37Hz - 2kHz Sensitivity 98dB 1W@1m ABM 210T Frequency Response 75Hz - 20kHz Sensitivity 102dB 1W @ 1m Note the frequency response is not qualified and it rarely is. By qualification I mean what the variation is over the frequency range, usually expressed like +- 3dB, meaning the frequency response falls within a 6 dB range. Assuming +- 3dB, adding another cab adds 3dB so ignoring the difference in sensitivity, assuming the response is flat, and no phase cancellation, really simplifying the matter, adding the responses together would have a frequency response of 75Hz to 2kHz at +-3dB, 37Hz to 20kHz at +-6dB. Now if the phase of the cabs also changes at different frequencies, for those frequencies that are out of phase, rather than adding the responses they are subtracted and if the phase difference is 180 degrees then the cabs will cancel each others output and produce nothing for those frequencies. Its not the absolute phase but the cancellation of out of phase output that makes the results unpredictable. In the example above the fact that the 210 has a 4dB advantage in sensitivity also means that 75Hz to 2kHz will be 7dB louder than 37 to 75Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmansky Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 all seems a bit complicated!so bassists who have been using 15's and 10's together for years have been waisting their time and money and belting out a c**p sound?must get on to the manager of my local music store who tryed to flog me a 1x15 to go with my 4x10 cab then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='bassmansky' post='244036' date='Jul 20 2008, 08:43 PM']all seems a bit complicated!so bassists who have been using 15's and 10's together for years have been waisting their time and money and belting out a c**p sound?must get on to the manager of my local music store who tryed to flog me a 1x15 to go with my 4x10 cab then.[/quote] Probably. Since when have managers of music stores been interested in bass sound; they normally try and sell a stack of mixed cabs cos thats what they have got as most shops only carry 1 of high cost stock. From my own experince I had a 15/2x10 stack for as long as it took the second 2x10 that I ordered when I used the stack for the first time and it sounded sh*t, to arrive at the shop. Its ironic that Ashdown ABM range has a rep for being wooley sounding, if they are mixing ABM cabs I'm not surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmansky Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 agree with some of what you say as for the abm's sounding wooly i cant agree on that more like classic vintage sound.i wouldnt call jj burnells sound wooly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 [quote name='bassmansky' post='244058' date='Jul 20 2008, 09:23 PM']agree with some of what you say as for the abm's sounding wooly i cant agree on that more like classic vintage sound.i wouldnt call jj burnells sound wooly![/quote] Absolutely - he uses an 8x10 according to the Ashdown website so he does not mix his drivers. But the classic JJ sound is a Hiwatt DR103 and a f***ed marshall 4x12 with torn drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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