Help choosing my first Bass stack.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='244006' date='Jul 20 2008, 07:45 PM']Take the example I have used [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=22504&st=0&start=0"]here[/url] and the ABM cabs.

ABM 115 Frequency Response 37Hz - 2kHz Sensitivity 98dB 1W@1m
ABM 210T Frequency Response 75Hz - 20kHz Sensitivity 102dB 1W @ 1m[/quote]

Your example is completely flawed. It is as accurate as predicting the lap times of a car based on the 0-60 time and top speed without any other data, even the length of the track!

It is not black and white. Model some speakers, sum the full frequency response plots and come back to me. Otherwise stop banging on and on and on.

Personally I take a more engineered approach but the suck it and see approach can work. A lot of happy Schroeder users out there and that seems to be as advanced as Jorg's design process is.

Alex

[Deep Thought]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='244096' date='Jul 20 2008, 10:24 PM']Absolutely - he uses an 8x10 according to the Ashdown website so he does not mix his drivers.[/quote]

I've not seen him use an 8X10. I know he uses 2 ABM 4X10's and two (?)1X18's. He certainly is on the 'Rattus at the Roundhouse' DVD, recorded in November 07. Woolly it is not.

[joegarcia]

[quote name='Deep Thought' post='244136' date='Jul 20 2008, 11:22 PM']I've not seen him use an 8X10. I know he uses 2 ABM 4X10's and two (?)1X18's. He certainly is on the 'Rattus at the Roundhouse' DVD, recorded in November 07. Woolly it is not.[/quote]


Ah so he [i]is[/i] mixing drivers!
The plot thickens.

[bass_ferret]

And what? Is he using his backline for FOH and recordning?

[ianrunci]

and there was me thinking I had a good bass sound. Damn. I suppose I should be looking to get a couple of Boutique designer 12s now so I can get a decent sound. I really thought my 25 years of giigging experience had taught me that a good sound is only in your head.

Right chaps lets all get the same cabs so we can all get the same sound.

I think your missing the point here, who is qualified to say whether your sound is good except yourself, answer? - of course its none except yourself is it?
Because only you know what sound your trying to achieve and whether thats with 10s, 15, 18s or even 12s or a mixture of all the above or even a 50 watt practice amp.

So science can't define what a good sound is unless a computer has a better idea what you want than you do

[phatbass787]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='244239' date='Jul 21 2008, 09:02 AM']and there was me thinking I had a good bass sound. Damn. I suppose I should be looking to get a couple of Boutique designer 12s now so I can get a decent sound. I really thought my 25 years of giigging experience had taught me that a good sound is only in your head.

Right chaps lets all get the same cabs so we can all get the same sound.

I think your missing the point here, who is qualified to say whether your sound is good except yourself, answer? - of course its none except yourself is it?
Because only you know what sound your trying to achieve and whether thats with 10s, 15, 18s or even 12s or a mixture of all the above or even a 50 watt practice amp.

So science can't define what a good sound is unless a computer has a better idea what you want than you do[/quote]

Wholeheartedly agree with this, tone is such a personal thing and most of us spend our lives trying to emulate either other players or the sound in our heads, aint that half the fun?

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='244118' date='Jul 20 2008, 10:55 PM']Your example is completely flawed. It is as accurate as predicting the lap times of a car based on the 0-60 time and top speed without any other data, even the length of the track!

It is not black and white. Model some speakers, sum the full frequency response plots and come back to me. Otherwise stop banging on and on and on.

Personally I take a more engineered approach but the suck it and see approach can work. A lot of happy Schroeder users out there and that seems to be as advanced as Jorg's design process is.

Alex[/quote]
I'm not arguing with you - just trying to get a better understanding. All the assumption I was making are obviously false but I was trying to simplify matters to aid comprehension. As for the car analogy, no it wont predict lap times but there is a high probability the car with the fastest top speed and acceleration will do the fastest laps.

I did not make this up about mixing drivers - I got it from the resident basschat experts Bill F and Alex C. Have you changed your mind?

This idea of mixing speakers producing unpredictable results explains my own experience. I had a Peavey Tmax with a 115BW. Conventional wisdon said I should get a 210 and when I did it sounded sh*t, even though both speakers sounded good on their own! It sounded so sh*t I px'ed the 115BW for another 210 at the earliest opportunity, because contrary to conventional wisdom the 210 was deeper than the 115BW.

If the best that can be said is that mixing cabs will produce unpredictable results and will not necessarily be a sum of the parts because the differences in frequency response, both magnitude and phase, once combined, may or may not result in a more balanced sound, any further explanation will required detailed knowledge of speaker designs; then that will have to do.

[ped]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='244239' date='Jul 21 2008, 09:02 AM']and there was me thinking I had a good bass sound. Damn. I suppose I should be looking to get a couple of Boutique designer 12s now so I can get a decent sound. I really thought my 25 years of giigging experience had taught me that a good sound is only in your head.

Right chaps lets all get the same cabs so we can all get the same sound.

I think your missing the point here, who is qualified to say whether your sound is good except yourself, answer? - of course its none except yourself is it?
Because only you know what sound your trying to achieve and whether thats with 10s, 15, 18s or even 12s or a mixture of all the above or even a 50 watt practice amp.

So science can't define what a good sound is unless a computer has a better idea what you want than you do[/quote]

I agree with this. Do your thing, and if it sounds good, it sounds good. One of my personal faves is to stick my horrible French bass through my HiFi. On paper a stupid idea but it sounds very 'fun'. At the end of the day I think a good player will just have fun with the sound and if that entails thousands of pounds on speakers that reproduce every nuance or playing through a wet sock into a tin can. I do however find all this information which is now coming to light about speaker design interesting from a technological standpoint.

Play on
ped

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='244376' date='Jul 21 2008, 12:36 PM']I'm not arguing with you - just trying to get a better understanding. All the assumption I was making are obviously false but I was trying to simplify matters to aid comprehension. As for the car analogy, no it wont predict lap times but there is a high probability the car with the fastest top speed and acceleration will do the fastest laps.

I did not make this up about mixing drivers - I got it from the resident basschat experts Bill F and Alex C. Have you changed your mind?

This idea of mixing speakers producing unpredictable results explains my own experience. I had a Peavey Tmax with a 115BW. Conventional wisdon said I should get a 210 and when I did it sounded sh*t, even though both speakers sounded good on their own! It sounded so sh*t I px'ed the 115BW for another 210 at the earliest opportunity, because contrary to conventional wisdom the 210 was deeper than the 115BW.

If the best that can be said is that mixing cabs will produce unpredictable results and will not necessarily be a sum of the parts because the differences in frequency response, both magnitude and phase, once combined, may or may not result in a more balanced sound, any further explanation will required detailed knowledge of speaker designs; then that will have to do.[/quote]

A drag racer will be a lot slower around a race track than a 2CV, despite the huge gulf in straight line performance.

Mixing drivers is unpredictable which is why I wouldn't recommend it but if you have the opportunity to test the different mixes to see which work well then I don't have a problem with this. We are bass players, not hi-fi audiophiles! I agree that the conventional wisdom about big speakers going lower etc is rather annoying but that's a separate issue.

Scientifically predicting the results of mixing speakers is so difficult you're better off plugging them in and listening.

I just felt I had to step in because whilst I'm sure you have good intentions your evangelical black and white stance was looking likely to put a lot of backs up and in the process leave any posts regarding the pros of better design to be read by an irritated and sceptical audience.

Alex

P.S. I like playing any basses through hi-fi's, I just wouldn't gig with one!

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='244570' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:58 PM']A drag racer will be a lot slower around a race track than a 2CV, despite the huge gulf in straight line performance.[/quote]
You got me.
[quote name='alexclaber' post='244570' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:58 PM']Mixing drivers is unpredictable which is why I wouldn't recommend it but if you have the opportunity to test the different mixes to see which work well then I don't have a problem with this. We are bass players, not hi-fi audiophiles! I agree that the conventional wisdom about big speakers going lower etc is rather annoying but that's a separate issue.

Scientifically predicting the results of mixing speakers is so difficult you're better off plugging them in and listening.[/quote]
Once upon a time music and hi-fi mags used to do their own lab tesing of gear. It probably fell from favour because the lab tests contradicted the listening tests.
[quote name='alexclaber' post='244570' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:58 PM']I just felt I had to step in because whilst I'm sure you have good intentions your evangelical black and white stance was looking likely to put a lot of backs up and in the process leave any posts regarding the pros of better design to be read by an irritated and sceptical audience.

Alex

P.S. I like playing any basses through hi-fi's, I just wouldn't gig with one![/quote]

One persons back up I think, that was more to do with his understanding of "marmite". Still, I would be interested to hear his reasons for telling a newbie this:
[quote name='ianrunci' post='243589' date='Jul 20 2008, 01:14 AM']I would say for your first stack you should be able to pick up a 15, a 4x10 and a decent amp second hand easily for 600.[/quote]

[lowhand_mike]

i think ian pointed out that he had been using this style of stack for many yers and that, to his ears, it sound great. over the years of me playing listening i have heard many combinations of cabs and they have all sounded good, wether i was stood in a sweet spot by fluke every time or just the acoustics if each place was right i dont' know.
i can accept alex and bills stance on the physically correct side of things and i can see the long standing side of things, my personal preferance i am yet to find out as i still have just the 2x10 combo, BUT i will agree that it does indeed sound better on its side. and it am swaying to the side of getting another 2x10 (to stack vertically i might add) but why, well it is based on A) turning my amp on its side in the first place based on advice and based on that advice it seems right to follow the same source of that advice and NOT mix my speakers.
but then i may try a 1x15 with my setup and really like that.

yes the fastest car will be the one fastest through the corners, so which cab corners the best???

i found it interesting to note (and i am not sure they still do this) that ashdown started to fit feet on the sides of their 2x10 ABM cabs so they could be staked vertically, i'm sure there are more boutique cabs that do this but for a mainstream to do this i found reassuring in the information i am reading here.
it would be nice to see a vertical 4x10. or would it really make little difference to 2 2x10's

but like ped said "do your thing"

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='244694' date='Jul 21 2008, 06:56 PM']You got me.

Once upon a time music and hi-fi mags used to do their own lab tesing of gear. It probably fell from favour because the lab tests contradicted the listening tests.


One persons back up I think, that was more to do with his understanding of "marmite". Still, I would be interested to hear his reasons for telling a newbie this:[/quote]

My reasons are based on what I have used during my 30 years of gigging. I can only comment on things I have had experience with. This guy said he wanted a stack so I presumed he wanted something big and beefy. For me thats a 15 and a 4x10. For you its obviously different.

As I said I don't like 12s but I wouldn't say to him don't buy them cos they're sh*te cos I don't use them. IMHO the sound of bass through a 12 inch speaker is pants but then again for someone else its the next door to heaven.

He could quite easily pick up what I recommended second hand for well under 600 quid, it would be a bit pointless if we all recommended the same thing wouldn't it.

And as for the marmite comment yeah I did read that wrong. however I would say the same about all gear not just ashdown and hartke some people love it some people hate it

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Deep Thought' post='244136' date='Jul 20 2008, 11:22 PM']I've not seen him use an 8X10. I know he uses 2 ABM 4X10's and two (?)1X18's. He certainly is on the 'Rattus at the Roundhouse' DVD, recorded in November 07. Woolly it is not.[/quote]I'm going to see them tomorrow night, so I shall tell you what he is using.
Versitron Series F.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='244956' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']My reasons are based on what I have used during my 30 years of gigging. I can only comment on things I have had experience with. This guy said he wanted a stack so I presumed he wanted something big and beefy. For me thats a 15 and a 4x10. For you its obviously different.[/quote]
But why would 15 and 4x10 be bigger and beefier than say 2 15's or 2 4x10's. Have you ever tried a stack of two identical cabs?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='244956' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:02 AM']My reasons are based on what I have used during my 30 years of gigging. I can only comment on things I have had experience with. This guy said he wanted a stack so I presumed he wanted something big and beefy. For me thats a 15 and a 4x10. For you its obviously different.

As I said I don't like 12s but I wouldn't say to him don't buy them cos they're sh*te cos I don't use them. IMHO the sound of bass through a 12 inch speaker is pants but then again for someone else its the next door to heaven.[/quote]

Deeming all drivers of a given nominal diameter to sound the same is like deeming all cars with matching tyres to have the same roadholding ability.

I've owned four bass rigs over the years, a 15", a 12", a 10"+5"+tweeter and finally a 15". The current 15" sounds far more like the 3-way 10" cab than it sounds like the previous 15".

Alex

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='245033' date='Jul 22 2008, 07:29 AM']But why would 15 and 4x10 be bigger and beefier than say 2 15's or 2 4x10's. Have you ever tried a stack of two identical cabs?[/quote]

Of course I have used twin cabs in the past. and to answer your question I'm not saying it would be bigger and beefier I'm just giving advice based on what I would choose.

I like a 1x15 and a 4x10, so if someone asks me to recommend something then thts what I'm gonna recomend isnt it. Why would I want to recommend something I wouldn't buy myself?

[Deep Thought]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='244967' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:19 AM']I'm going to see them tomorrow night, so I shall tell you what he is using.
Versitron Series F.[/quote]

Liverpool Summer Pops, eh? Lucky you-I have to wait 'til October at Exeter. Be interested to hear if Jet Black is with them-he's missed some shows through ill health again lately. Actually I know JJ has an array of cabs that he mixes and matches according to venue, so I don't think there's a definitive setup. On the Roundhouse DVD I'm sure I can see a Trace something or other amongst the Ashdown stuff-would like to know if I'm right. Enjoy.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='245102' date='Jul 22 2008, 09:57 AM']I like a 1x15 and a 4x10, so if someone asks me to recommend something then thts what I'm gonna recomend isnt it. Why would I want to recommend something I wouldn't buy myself?[/quote]


+1 thats the whole point of a thread like this, testing the water to get personal opinions based on experience
i like 10's and really i wanted a 4x10 but funds only allowed for a 2x10, that was based on recommendations from here and other sources

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='245102' date='Jul 22 2008, 09:57 AM']I like a 1x15 and a 4x10, so if someone asks me to recommend something then thts what I'm gonna recomend isnt it. Why would I want to recommend something I wouldn't buy myself?[/quote]
And I like using two cabs the same and after 28 years as a gigging bass player I would not mix cabs, so thats what I recommended. So how come I am wrong and you are right?

[steve-soar]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='244967' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:19 AM']I'm going to see them tomorrow night, so I shall tell you what he is using.
Versitron Series F.[/quote]Just come back from the Liverpool arena, Stranglers and Blondie.
JJ was using his Shuker through a Mark King head into a Classic neo ABM 4X10 AND 1X15, he had two stacks but only one amp was switched on, his front of house sound was terrible.
It was massively compressed and lacked any definition.
I haven't seen them play since Hugh left as I thought they may have become a Stranglers tribute band, tonight my fears were comnfirmed.

Blondie's bassist was using an SVT and 8x10 and he had a sweet sound but obviously a different approach and style.

The last time I saw the M.I.B. JJ was using his Trace gear with his black Precision and that totally cut through, snarling, wicked sounding bass.
Maybe the engineer tonight was an idiot, who knows.

The L'pool arena is a sh*t hole, too many pissed idiots kicking off, nothing like any Stranglers gig I have been to before, where fans would be lively at the front but everyone else would be cool and having a good time.

The meat head security were being very agressive and unecessarily violent.
I suppose you can't go and see this kind of band and be forced to stay in your place but be allowed to drink enough beer to make people nasty.
People were being total pigs and coming back from the bars with arms full of beer, then going back again.

This country is in a bad way, very disturbing scenes my wife and I witnessed.

[skankdelvar]

Hi - I think you were possibly after some more general information. Some people were kind enough to contribute to my query thread [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=23551"]here[/url]. It contains some useful info on getting a rig together for much less than your budget. Secondhand prices though...

[Deep Thought]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='245809' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:31 AM']Just come back from the Liverpool arena, Stranglers and Blondie.
JJ was using his Shuker through a Mark King head into a Classic neo ABM 4X10 AND 1X15, he had two stacks but only one amp was switched on, his front of house sound was terrible.
It was massively compressed and lacked any definition.
I haven't seen them play since Hugh left as I thought they may have become a Stranglers tribute band, tonight my fears were comnfirmed.

Blondie's bassist was using an SVT and 8x10 and he had a sweet sound but obviously a different approach and style.

The last time I saw the M.I.B. JJ was using his Trace gear with his black Precision and that totally cut through, snarling, wicked sounding bass.
Maybe the engineer tonight was an idiot, who knows.

The L'pool arena is a sh*t hole, too many pissed idiots kicking off, nothing like any Stranglers gig I have been to before, where fans would be lively at the front but everyone else would be cool and having a good time.

The meat head security were being very agressive and unecessarily violent.
I suppose you can't go and see this kind of band and be forced to stay in your place but be allowed to drink enough beer to make people nasty.
People were being total pigs and coming back from the bars with arms full of beer, then going back again.

This country is in a bad way, very disturbing scenes my wife and I witnessed.[/quote]

Shame you didn't have a good night-I didn't see them for 15 years having seen them 7 times during the Hugh years. Just couldn't get on with Paul Roberts at all and totally lost interest. Decided to check them out again when I found they were playing at Helston in October '06, at the time I didn't realise Paul Roberts had left. I was blown away, totally impressed with Baz Warne, it was almost like seeing the old band again-in fact it was better, the last time I'd seen them with Hugh, on the 10 tour they were bloody awful (not the first time, sadly, that JJ has had poor FOH sound). I really felt as though the new lineup had completely rejuvenated them.
Saw them again last year in Exeter, fantastic again, took my mate who was also greatly impressed. Hopefully it was more to do with the venue than the band, all the gigs I've been to have been cool as you describe-guess I'll find out myself in October.

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='245728' date='Jul 22 2008, 10:23 PM']And I like using two cabs the same and after 28 years as a gigging bass player I would not mix cabs, so thats what I recommended. So how come I am wrong and you are right?[/quote]

I never said you were wrong, I just pointed out that its all down to personal opinion it was you that decided to argue the point

And secondly you said Hartke and Ashdown were a bit marmite (loved by some and hated by others) but thats a bit misleading cos in actual fact all equipment is a bit marmite. Peavey and Trace elliott for eg have both fans and detractors

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='245912' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:56 AM']I never said you were wrong, I just pointed out that its all down to personal opinion it was you that decided to argue the point

And secondly you said Hartke and Ashdown were a bit marmite (loved by some and hated by others) but thats a bit misleading cos in actual fact all equipment is a bit marmite. Peavey and Trace elliott for eg have both fans and detractors[/quote]
actually thats very true, though there is some gear that has an unoffensive sound (not sure if thats the right word) which has less of a marmite effect as it can be put up with rather than just yuk or yum

i know what i mean

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='245912' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:56 AM']And secondly you said Hartke and Ashdown were a bit marmite (loved by some and hated by others) but thats a bit misleading cos in actual fact all equipment is a bit marmite. Peavey and Trace elliott for eg have both fans and detractors[/quote]
Not really. If you trawl through the back pages and can remember what went down on bass world there is some gear that strongly divide opinions and some that nobody has a bad word for. Trace Elliot is marmite but I have never really read anyone with a downer on Peavey, its just not the most transparent of gear (and f***ing heavy). Likewise EBS, Gallien Gruger, Eden, Mark Bass etc etc, never seen a bad word for the amps although some dont rate Mark Bass cabs (including me). Surprisingly there are lots that dont rate Ampeg.