Further/Higher Education in Music

[Bilbo]

I am not altogether sure what I am posting about here but I know a lot of lecturers in colleges where Music is studied and awards granted at Diploma and Degree level. What I am told, and this is mirrored in other non-musical academic courses, is that it is pretty much impossible to fail these qualifications as there is enormous pressure on the lecturers to pass everyone so that the college/university performance statistics look good. I have performed with loads of musicians who have attended colleges and universities and, being blunt, I am not overwhelmed by the standards achieved. The great musicians I play with nowadays are as likely to be self taught as they are schooled and it is difficult to see what difference it makes. Certainly not £50K's worth.

Just wondered what others thought.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1401810373' post='2467117']
I am not altogether sure what I am posting about here but I know a lot of lecturers in colleges where Music is studied and awards granted at Diploma and Degree level. What I am told, and this is mirrored in other non-musical academic courses, is that it is pretty much impossible to fail these qualifications as there is enormous pressure on the lecturers to pass everyone so that the college/university performance statistics look good. I have performed with loads of musicians who have attended colleges and universities and, being blunt, I am not overwhelmed by the standards achieved. The great musicians I play with nowadays are as likely to be self taught as they are schooled and it is difficult to see what difference it makes. Certainly not £50K's worth.

Just wondered what others thought.
[/quote]
Interesting premise. I agree 90% of courses are un-failable, unless people don't show up of course. The pressures of being an educator at GCSE-Degree level are immense and it's always results driven, not everyone is good enough to pass all the time and the way the powers that be, put demands on success is ridiculous.

I'm just about to take my final degree year studying Music Performance at Northbrook College in Worthing, one thing it does for me is I'm always around music and able to focus on my music. As with anything in life it's down to how you apply yourself, if you don't put the hard work and effort in then you won't succeed at anything, doesn't matter if you're musically trained or not. However the fees to train at a music establishment and any degree are far too high.

Edited June 3, 2014 by JamesBass

[Black Coffee]

My eldest son is wanting to study music and is planning to go to college in September.
From the perspective of a parent wanting a son to succeed it's good news, from another point it's really quite sad that the tutors feel so under pressure that they would devalue the genuine passes by including less capable students in the collective.

When the rubber hits the road I'd rather know the truth than be a skid mark. This unfortunate person then finds employment or a position and they are in danger of being embarrassed by the false sense of security given through this fiasco.

How typical of the result driven toilet of a country we live in.

[ambient]

I'm a music student studying for a degree and don't agree with this.

It was extremely hard work getting on the course in the first place, the audition was ridiculous.

A HND can't be failed, merely pass or not yet achieved, but a not yet achieved isn't a pass. I had to pass my HND to gain entry to the degree, it was my one and only condition in the offer that I received.

The course work work is extremely hard, and pushes you to discover abilities that you didn't know you had. I would advise anyone considering doing a music degree to do it.

I am pretty certain that if you said this to any of my tutors they wouldn't agree either.

[Bilbo]

I have not said this to any tutors, that is my point. The tutors have said it to me.

[ambient]

Maybe different institutions have different outlooks and values.

Certainly where I study, the main thing is to push you both academically and with regard to your playing, so that you achieve what you are capable of, and so that you discover what you are capable of.

The important thing is not just to pass, but to be employable within the music business.

[flyfisher]

This is what happens when we dislike achievement and 'winners' . . . . . Everyone has to be 'equal' so no one is allowed fail . . . . Decline of competitive sports in schools . . . . Unintended consequences, etc etc etc.

I'd also suggest that much depends on why someone wishes to go to music school. If you want a job teaching then I suppose you need a piece of paper to prove your worth. If you wish to be a good player then perhaps the time would be better spent just practicing and practicing. You may not end up with apiece of paper but you might be able to blow away anyone else at an audition.

The other aspect is contacts. I only know one person who went to uni to pursue a music performance career. At the end of the first year the labels come around to talent scout and a number of people get signed up and promptly leave uni, so they obviously don't think a piece of paper is worth that much - the musicians or the music business! Two years on and George Ezra seems to be doing pretty well - he's certainly enjoying himself a lot more than if he'd stayed at uni.

[ambient]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401816107' post='2467205']
This is what happens when we dislike achievement and 'winners' . . . . . Everyone has to be 'equal' so no one is allowed fail . . . . Decline of competitive sports in schools . . . . Unintended consequences, etc etc etc.

I'd also suggest that much depends on why someone wishes to go to music school. If you want a job teaching then I suppose you need a piece of paper to prove your worth. If you wish to be a good player then perhaps the time would be better spent just practicing and practicing. You may not end up with apiece of paper but you might be able to blow away anyone else at an audition.

The other aspect is contacts. I only know one person who went to uni to pursue a music performance career. At the end of the first year the labels come around to talent scout and a number of people get signed up and promptly leave uni, so they obviously don't think a piece of paper is worth that much - the musicians or the music business! Two years on and George Ezra seems to be doing pretty well - he's certainly enjoying himself a lot more than if he'd stayed at uni.
[/quote]

It's also discovering that you can do things that you didn't realise you could do, things that you wouldn't maybe have thought about doing.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1401810373' post='2467117']
What I am told ... is that it is pretty much impossible to fail these qualifications as there is enormous pressure on the lecturers to pass everyone so that the college/university performance statistics look good.
[/quote]

I suppose it depends on the nature of the course and the establishment that provides it. I'd imagine that the Royal Academy Of Music might adopt a somewhat more rigorous approach than the Scunthorpe College Of Rock'N'Roll.

The first of these 'Rock Schools' was launched many years ago and they have since grown to enjoy considerable vogue. My opinion then as now was that in the wrong hands these places would serve only to enrich the owners at the expense of starry-eyed unemployables.

If the educators themselves are now admitting that the thumb is firmly on the scales, I regret that it comes as no surprise to me.

[Thunderbird]

I would really like to study music in some form and whilst I agree with ambient that it is hard to get onto a course I certainly am having no luck but I do have to agree with the other comments also. From my own experience people I have spoken to not just in the music industry but in industries across the board college qualifications seem to be handed out like smarties I know when I did my engineering apprenticeship years ago it was bloody hard work and you got pushed as you were in a real environment but in my last few years in the engineering trade you would see these young kids come on to projects and most of them really did not have a clue about very basic things but they all had there degrees or whatever qualification it was really mind blowing

[RhysP]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401816107' post='2467205']
This is what happens when we dislike achievement and 'winners' . . . . . Everyone has to be 'equal' so no one is allowed fail . . . . Decline of competitive sports in schools . . . . Unintended consequences, etc etc etc.
[/quote]

It's got nothing to do with that, it's all about league tables & having to fight for every bit of funding that makes educational establishments at all levels end up having to cook the books with regard to how well they do with regards to percentages of exams passed. The result is they offer courses that are pretty much impossible to fail so they look like some kind of hothouse of academic excellence.

[ambient]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401816107' post='2467205']
This is what happens when we dislike achievement and 'winners' . . . . . Everyone has to be 'equal' so no one is allowed fail . . . . Decline of competitive sports in schools . . . . Unintended consequences, etc etc etc.
[/quote]

If that were the case why do they still have graded passes ?

Surely it'd be fairer to just have a pass, and get rid of 2.2, 2.1 etc.



I'm certainly not saying that some courses in some subjects aren't like the OP has suggested. My cousin did a degree at Bath Spa university, she's a primary school teacher. She used to have 7 hours per week contact time.

I got 18 the year that's just ended, I was doing probably another 40 or so on top of that at home with essays and other assignments, and practicing.

I just feel it's wrong to single out music degrees in general for criticism.

Edited June 3, 2014 by ambient

[flyfisher]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1401817360' post='2467225']
It's also discovering that you can do things that you didn't realise you could do, things that you wouldn't maybe have thought about doing.
[/quote]

Fair point. Being amongst like-minded people who can encourage you to try new things is all part of that whole university 'experience' thing and a good thing too. Trouble is, it comes with a £50k price tag these days so it's an expensive choice.

And when money people are paying out that sort of money they start to EXPECT to get a degree at the end of it all, regardless of their actual ability. Did anyone hear the R4 prg today about students increasingly suing their universities because of poor teaching causing them not to get the grade they expected. One student was moaning about getting a 2/2 after his tutor went away somewhere from Jan to May. never mind the rights or wrongs . . . . £50k sets a lot of expectations.

[simes]

If a student fails the lecturer gets the bollockin' even if said student never shows up, I know, been there, got the T shirt had the nervous breakdown. That's why I'm now an ex lecturer and a damn sight happier.

Results = money, and LOT of cooking the books goes on.

I know an ex maths lecturer who was under tremendous pressure to bump up students marks so more passed. He asked them to put it in writting. Next thing he gets a very sweet retirement package. New guy in place, young and ambitious results get a lot better.

It's not the students fault, league tables and funding causes it. I work with drug addicts and alcoholics now who are much nicer to deal with than academia.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1401821971' post='2467300']
If that were the case why do they still have graded passes ?

Surely it'd be fairer to just have a pass, and get rid of 2.2, 2.1 etc.


[/quote]

Well, I was being 'broad brush', but ultimately it's the employers who set the value of grades and grade-inflation plus so many graduates these days means the CV of anyone without a first ends up in the bin, hence increasing graduate unemployment and why so many graduates end up with non-graduate jobs. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/nov/19/half-recent-uk-graduates-stuck-jobs-ons

Understandably upsetting when you've just collected a £50k weight around your neck.

[OliverBlackman]

Not going to read all of the replies but just going to offer my view.

It depends on the college. I know that Berklee has an extremely high standard as does the Royal Academy in London.

However, as a music college graduate I agree with most of what bilbo has said. In the 2 years since I graduated I have gained the skills to be proficient in playing to a high level, through studying books and with a tutor. When I left the degree (Which I got a 2:1 in), I was nowhere near the standard I should have been. Yet because of the students and tutors feedback we all thought we were pretty good.

I think it was because; A) they let anyone of any standard in, even after rigorous auditions. The tutors just taught enough to pass a certain basic level.

The guys who were on the course and have a career in music, were already at the high level before they attended. For example Ed Sheeran attended for all of 2 terms before getting snapped up.

So, the degree is more of a security blanket incase music doesn't work out. However, no-one outside of music wants to employ someone with a music degree!

Therefore if the idea of doing a music course is to network, why would you study anywhere outside of London, LA or NY, where the industry is.

[skej21]

[quote name='simes' timestamp='1401822559' post='2467307']
If a student fails the lecturer gets the bollockin' even if said student never shows up, I know, been there, got the T shirt had the nervous breakdown. That's why I'm now an ex lecturer and a damn sight happier.

Results = money, and LOT of cooking the books goes on.

I know an ex maths lecturer who was under tremendous pressure to bump up students marks so more passed. He asked them to put it in writting. Next thing he gets a very sweet retirement package. New guy in place, young and ambitious results get a lot better.

It's not the students fault, league tables and funding causes it. I work with drug addicts and alcoholics now who are much nicer to deal with than academia.
[/quote]

+1 This is also why I left the profession. Private instrumental tuition and workshop teaching is much more rewarding and less obsessive over stats and figures. I made the right choice although ironically would not have been able to do much of the teaching that I love for local music services without my PGCE qualification which required me to undertake music college/university education :-)

[ambient]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1401825927' post='2467344']
Not going to read all of the replies but just going to offer my view.

It depends on the college. I know that Berklee has an extremely high standard as does the Royal Academy in London.

However, as a music college graduate I agree with most of what bilbo has said. In the 2 years since I graduated I have gained the skills to be proficient in playing to a high level, through studying books and with a tutor. When I left the degree (Which I got a 2:1 in), I was nowhere near the standard I should have been. Yet because of the students and tutors feedback we all thought we were pretty good.

I think it was because; A) they let anyone of any standard in, even after rigorous auditions. The tutors just taught enough to pass a certain basic level.

The guys who were on the course and have a career in music, were already at the high level before they attended. For example Ed Sheeran attended for all of 2 terms before getting snapped up.

So, the degree is more of a security blanket incase music doesn't work out. However, no-one outside of music wants to employ someone with a music degree!

Therefore if the idea of doing a music course is to network, why would you study anywhere outside of London, LA or NY, where the industry is.
[/quote]

I think it must depend on the college, but also maybe the course ?

I auditioned for and was offered a place on the degree at BIMM in Bristol. That was a BA in contemporary music performance. I wanted a BMus because I planned to teach at further education level.

I auditioned where I'm studying now and had to do the HND first to get aspects of my playing to a high enough level.

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1401827499' post='2467361']
I think it must depend on the college, but also maybe the course ?

I auditioned for and was offered a place on the degree at BIMM in Bristol. That was a BA in contemporary music performance. I wanted a BMus because I planned to teach at further education level.

I auditioned where I'm studying now and had to do the HND first to get aspects of my playing to a high enough level.
[/quote]

I'm going to reply to this in two stages.

1. If you're planning to teach at a contemporary Music college/ university, most choose their tutors based on experience in the industry. So its important to have had a career as a performer first. They do this so they can entice potential students. My mum is a director of arts at a college, and she says that to get a teaching job at her college usually requires the candidate to have completed a masters.

2. Not many people will have the skills they need after doing a 1 year HnD (Not saying you don't). It takes a lot of time (some say 10,000 hours) of practice to get good. Most of the people I studied with at HnD, who did not follow onto the degree, don't have a career in music or the skills to do so.

Its important to realise I am not aiming at just you Ambient, but generalising so people have a clearer picture of what it means to go to music college. Something I wish I had before choosing where to study.

[ambient]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1401828671' post='2467375']
I'm going to reply to this in two stages.

1. If you're planning to teach at a contemporary Music college/ university, most choose their tutors based on experience in the industry. So its important to have had a career as a performer first. They do this so they can entice potential students. My mum is a director of arts at a college, and she says that to get a teaching job at her college usually requires the candidate to have completed a masters.

2. Not many people will have the skills they need after doing a 1 year HnD (Not saying you don't). It takes a lot of time (some say 10,000 hours) of practice to get good. Most of the people I studied with at HnD, who did not follow onto the degree, don't have a career in music or the skills to do so.

Its important to realise I am not aiming at just you Ambient, but generalising so people have a clearer picture of what it means to go to music college. Something I wish I had before choosing where to study.
[/quote]

I was talking to my programme leader the other week, he pretty much said what you have regarding teaching at higher education level.

I've just completed year 2 of the BMus, and it is very hard work, it's an academic course, not just playing.

The tutors are some of the top players in London, and know what is required for a successful career.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1401825927' post='2467344']
Therefore if the idea of doing a music course is to network, why would you study anywhere outside of London, LA or NY, where the industry is.
[/quote]

Or Bristol ? . . . . which is where George Ezra was snapped up.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='OliverBlackman' timestamp='1401828671' post='2467375']
1. If you're planning to teach at a contemporary Music college/ university, most choose their tutors based on experience in the industry. So its important to have had a career as a performer first. They do this so they can entice potential students.
[/quote]

Why would someone with a career as a performer give it up to teach?

[JamesBass]

I'll also weigh in for the view point that the gifted and hard working students are often over looked by lecturers at times due to the fact they have to get the lesser people passed.

Speaking from experience here, while I'm certainly not the most amazing bass player I like to think of myself as one of the most hardworking, I'm constantly practicing and trying to find new gigs and people to play with, however on my HND, a 2 year course of which I'm a matter of hours away from finishing, there's only 1 person who I can honestly say will have a career in the industry to a good level, the rest don't work hard enough nor have the academic prowess to get the non-playing roles in the industry. It's a frustrating state of affairs when 90% of the class don't have the drive or determination to actually work hard and succeed, this limits the effect a lecturer can actually have on their students.

There are many factors that come in to play when discussing the pros and cons of music teaching establishments, same as any teaching establishment really.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401829710' post='2467387']
Why would someone with a career as a performer give it up to teach?
[/quote]
Guaranteed income for not much work. To actually spend more time with family?

[skej21]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1401829786' post='2467389']
I'll also weigh in for the view point that the gifted and hard working students are often over looked by lecturers at times due to the fact they have to get the lesser people passed.

Speaking from experience here, while I'm certainly not the most amazing bass player I like to think of myself as one of the most hardworking, I'm constantly practicing and trying to find new gigs and people to play with, however on my HND, a 2 year course of which I'm a matter of hours away from finishing, there's only 1 person who I can honestly say will have a career in the industry to a good level, the rest don't work hard enough nor have the academic prowess to get the non-playing roles in the industry. It's a frustrating state of affairs when 90% of the class don't have the drive or determination to actually work hard and succeed, this limits the effect a lecturer can actually have on their students.

There are many factors that come in to play when discussing the pros and cons of music teaching establishments, same as any teaching establishment really.
[/quote]

The irony being that without the pupils that you spend all your time and energy dragging through a pass grade, the course would not exist for the hard working pupils! Then when the course does exist, they are overlooked as time is dedicated to helping those who can't be bothered rather than challenging and furthering those who want to truly achieve. It's a sorry state of affairs.

Edited June 3, 2014 by skej21