Further/Higher Education in Music

[lojo]

Surely you attend a course with the confidence to pass it, nobody should be failing if the organisation has an entrance standard.

This should be so if your study music, joinery, medicine or history, perhaps only some get firsts , but everyone should be passing if they are an excepted student.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1401832325' post='2467420']
The irony being that without the pupils that you spend all your time and energy dragging through a pass grade, the course would not exist for the hard working pupils! Then when the course does exist, they are overlooked as time is dedicated to helping those who can't be bothered rather than challenging and furthering those who want to truly achieve. It's a sorry state of affairs.
[/quote]
Indeed it is! There are some on my course who still don't know what a triad is and how to play even a major scale, yet they still pass.

Sadly if they didn't pass we'd have even less funding and would quite probably have no working gear as no doubt the techs would be first in the firing line! The results driven funding model used is a very ridiculous one and is the reason for the downfall in teaching and why all qualifications are becoming less and less prized. I'm 100% that a degree isn't worth half in terms of kudos and indication about the person now as it was a decade ago.

[RhysP]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1401839448' post='2467487']
I'm 100% that a degree isn't worth half in terms of kudos and indication about the person now as it was a decade ago.
[/quote]

I'd say they haven't been worth much for a lot longer than that - around the time that somebody thought getting rid of polytechnics, giving them university status & turning loads of non-academic courses into degrees was a great idea.

Of course this had less to do with "higher education for all" & giving the less academically inclined the chance to get a "proper" degree than it did with massaging the unemployment figures for the 18 - 25's.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1401865242' post='2467536']
I'd say they haven't been worth much for a lot longer than that - around the time that somebody thought getting rid of polytechnics, giving them university status & turning loads of non-academic courses into degrees was a great idea.

Of course this had less to do with "higher education for all" & giving the less academically inclined the chance to get a "proper" degree than it did with massaging the unemployment figures for the 18 - 25's.
[/quote]
I think you may well be right there. It's a sorry state of affairs sadly and it's only going to cause more harm than good.

[BigRedX]

This sort of thing is going on in education at all levels and in all subjects including the "humble" evening class.

I did evening classes in the 70s - "folk" guitar for 3 years and later 2 years of marine biology. In those days it was mostly for fun and a bit of self education. What you got out of them was directly linked to what you put in, and so long as there were sufficient people attending each week the classes ran. None of the ones I attended had any qualifications attached to them, and the courses were built around the people who had signed up and their existing knowledge and abilities.

Forward to 1999 and having come back from a holiday in Japan (and wanting to go back there again), I decided that learning Japanese would be a good idea. One of the local colleges was offering Japanese language evening classes so I signed up, paid my fee and went along to the beginners class.

Things couldn't have been more different from the 70s. Classes didn't run unless they met minimum attendance levels which seemed to be considerably higher then before. In my second year the only way to get sufficient numbers for the course to keep going was to combine those on their second and third years into a single class. At the end of each year there was a short written and oral exam. However in order for the classes to continue to run and certain number of people had to pass which essentially meant so long as you turned up to the exam and made some kind of effort you passed. It wasn't even for a NVQ, just a certificate issued by the college.

Having passed the exam you then processed to the next level of the course. This was fine until I reach my 4th year of evening classes. At this point I joined a group most of whom had been learning Japanese for over 10 years. Their standard was so far ahead of mine that I was completely lost. I would have been quite happy to go back to the 3rd year group (and carry on paying to be part of it) to re-enforce my existing knowledge while building up the skills I would need to be able to take part in the next level classes. However because I had "passed" the third year course I wasn't allowed to retake it as it would reflect badly on the person teaching it. My only option was the advanced group and after a couple of weeks of being completely out of my depth, I quit the class.

Sorry that went a bit off topic, but when those kinds of attitudes are being applied to classes that are essentially a bit of fun and minor self-improvement for people with some spare time in the evening, it is hardly surprising to me that the same attitudes are prevalent in degree courses where funding reliant on both numbers attending and numbers passing the course whether or not they actually have the ability to do so.

[Bilbo]

I have no doubt that the funding arangements and performance requirements of successive Governments (i.e. of all hues) etc are compromising the raison d'etre of educational establishment. It is all about 'maintaining the illusion', not about equipping the student with the knowledge and skills associated with their chosen field.

[simes]

During my 14yrs as a lecturer in FE it was also my fault if:

A student was late.
A student never brought a note book and pen.
A student was barely literate (I wasn't allowed to be selective at student intake, I was told I could but of course the head of dept wouldn't put that in writing. Bums on seats=money remember).
A student never produced any work.
A student never produced any evidence for their NVQ portfolio (NVQ's now there another thread in it's self).
A student damaged anything in the workshop.
A student got the boot from their workplacement (Usually for being a t##t). After I got them the placement so you can imagine that business would never take another student from me).

All of the above plus more I was dragged over the coals for at one time or another. A student these days is pretty much invincible.

If I wrote a book about it all people would think it was a work of fiction

As has already been mentioned all the fun evening classes died a death because there had to be a measurable outcome.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='simes' timestamp='1401876878' post='2467681']
A [s]student[/s] customer these days is pretty much invincible.
[/quote]

Fixed.

Can't be long now before degrees are issued by 'correspondence courses' from cyberspace universities. Just send £249 and your certificate will be sent out by return.

[paul_5]

[quote name='simes' timestamp='1401876878' post='2467681']
During my 14yrs as a lecturer in FE it was also my fault if:

A student was late.
A student never brought a note book and pen.
A student was barely literate (I wasn't allowed to be selective at student intake, I was told I could but of course the head of dept wouldn't put that in writing. Bums on seats=money remember).
A student never produced any work.
A student never produced any evidence for their NVQ portfolio (NVQ's now there another thread in it's self).
A student damaged anything in the workshop.
A student got the boot from their workplacement (Usually for being a t##t). After I got them the placement so you can imagine that business would never take another student from me).

All of the above plus more I was dragged over the coals for at one time or another. A student these days is pretty much invincible.
[/quote]

True dat - Been there.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1401878342' post='2467700']
Fixed.

Can't be long now before degrees are issued by 'correspondence courses' from cyberspace universities. Just send £249 and your certificate will be sent out by return.
[/quote]

Such as this..?

[url="https://leicesterlp.le.ac.uk/b/page4-distance_learning.php?SourceId=364&CreativeId=38356608257&Keyword=distance%20+degree&SectionId=&gclid=CjkKEQjwh7ucBRD9yY_fyZe398gBEiQAAoy4JHn5S1Fmq0oT8LmfoRB9VSgNQ3aacyjLXMH0gj4zc9nw_wcB"]Discover distance learning courses at the University of Leicester...[/url]

[attachment=164335:Univ_Leic.jpg]

[flyfisher]

Or these? [url="http://www.justdial.com/Bangalore/Institutes-For-PHD-Correspondence/ct-593082"]http://www.justdial....dence/ct-593082[/url]

Or just buy one: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2003/oct/26/administration.highereducation


So that'll be Dr Flyfisher from now on, thank you very much.

Edited June 4, 2014 by flyfisher

[Norris]

Doing an A level was enough for me - and bored me rigid! I wish I had done a more 'useful' course instead. I never seriously considered any higher education in music and instead went for IT. (I did A level music & got grade 8 on trombone, so did seriously consider it for a short time)

I came to the conclusion that being a good musician does not rely on how you do in exams, but how you perform on your chosen instrument(s). Look at how many 'stars' have a degree in music - most of them can't even read dots.

Disclaimer: I can understand that there are certain areas of music that might benefit from higher education e.g. composition, conducting, etc., but that's a lot of stick waving to recoup £50k of education debt!

[Dad3353]

In that case, we may as well go the whole hog, even cheaper..!

Edited March 5, 2015 by Dad3353

[flyfisher]

Excellent suggestion, Lord Sir Dr Dad. Anyway, it seems to have worked for our very own Dr Dave.

Actually, this all reminds me of this . . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdujUF0was

[Mr Fretbuzz]

I wouldn't mind doing a part time qualification on a weekend for the fun of it and to learn some stuff but it seems the nearest is BIMM Brighton and that is an afternoon and a Saturday. I did one grade and found that it was stunting my progress.

[ambient]

[quote name='Mr Fretbuzz' timestamp='1401894260' post='2467978']
I wouldn't mind doing a part time qualification on a weekend for the fun of it and to learn some stuff but it seems the nearest is BIMM Brighton and that is an afternoon and a Saturday. I did one grade and found that it was stunting my progress.
[/quote]

There's BIMM in Bristol too.

It seems there's quite a wide degree of difference in what people learn on various courses, maybe not all degrees are created equally.

The last 12 months I've had to arrange a variety of music from rock and country to latin for various ensembles, that includes writing (in notation not TAB) for vocals, drums, guitars (including composed solos) and bass.

I've composed and arranged for string quartet, and I've composed orchestral music for films. Both of these had to be scored in a way they could just be taken into a studio and played and recorded. It's no good giving a string ensemble a chord chart .

[lowdown]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1401901364' post='2468101']
It's no good giving a string ensemble a chord chart .
[/quote]

True dat is.
And on the other hand, if you want a Guitarist to shut up and tacet,
Give him a sheet of notation.

[Mr Fretbuzz]

They don't do the part time in Bristol Ambient :-( hopefully in the future

[bassist_lewis]

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies for any repetition. If you subscribe to Victor Wooten's belief system then everyone is self taught (see the Music Lesson) so wether you go to uni/college or not is almost irrelevant, especially nowadays with the internet providing all the information and lessons you could possibly want for free. What a degree does give you is time to focus on your craft and to gain contacts.
On my degree course there was definitely the feeling among students that marks we're awarded arbitrarily, I knew people who worked 12+ hours a day for months in their final year on projects and performance exams and got mediocre marks while others threw stuff together haphazardly in the 3 days before the deadline and got merits.
In my opinion music is too subjective to grade in any meaningful way (aside from the basics like technique, professionalism).
Your music degree is what you make of it.

[JamesBass]

[quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1401915845' post='2468356']
Haven't read the whole thread so apologies for any repetition. If you subscribe to Victor Wooten's belief system then everyone is self taught (see the Music Lesson) so wether you go to uni/college or not is almost irrelevant, especially nowadays with the internet providing all the information and lessons you could possibly want for free. What a degree does give you is time to focus on your craft and to gain contacts.
On my degree course there was definitely the feeling among students that marks we're awarded arbitrarily, I knew people who worked 12+ hours a day for months in their final year on projects and performance exams and got mediocre marks while others threw stuff together haphazardly in the 3 days before the deadline and got merits.
In my opinion music is too subjective to grade in any meaningful way (aside from the basics like technique, professionalism).
Your music degree is what you make of it.
[/quote]
I'd argue even technique is too subjective too. I got reject from an audition for uni recently, one of the key focus points was that I had my thumb floating instead of resting on the pick up. Now I change my hand position often throughout a performance, it happens naturally for me, I have a good tone and get nice even notes no matter where I play, but because I move around I don't often rest my thumb for too long, yet the assessor said this was poor technique. Try telling Jamerson that!

Not only that some of our most loved bass players haven't exactly got perfect technique. In my mind there is no right or wrong way to play the instrument, only a comfy way and a more economical way, especially right hand anyway. Professionalism and knowledge of the music is perhaps the only way to grade effectively cause even stage presence is dubious, we could take Mr Entwistle and compare him to Mr Harris, both amazing and both polar opposites on stage.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Thunderbird' timestamp='1401820857' post='2467282']
I would really like to study music in some form and whilst I agree with ambient that it is hard to get onto a course I certainly am having no luck but I do have to agree with the other comments also. From my own experience people I have spoken to not just in the music industry but in industries across the board college qualifications seem to be handed out like smarties I know when I did my engineering apprenticeship years ago it was bloody hard work and you got pushed as you were in a real environment but in my last few years in the engineering trade you would see these young kids come on to projects and most of them really did not have a clue about very basic things but they all had there degrees or whatever qualification it was really mind blowing
[/quote]

Here you go, lad, the treat's on me. Here's a starter collection to be getting on with; just PM me when you run out and I'll send some more...

..................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ::::::::::::::::::: ????????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need to thank me; enjoy.


([size=2]No offence intended, just a bit of ribbing; sorry...[/size];-))

[Bilbo]

[quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1401915845' post='2468356']
Haven't read the whole thread so apologies for any repetition. If you subscribe to Victor Wooten's belief system then everyone is self taught (see the Music Lesson) so wether you go to uni/college or not is almost irrelevant, especially nowadays with the internet providing all the information and lessons you could possibly want for free. What a degree does give you is time to focus on your craft and to gain contacts.
On my degree course there was definitely the feeling among students that marks we're awarded arbitrarily, I knew people who worked 12+ hours a day for months in their final year on projects and performance exams and got mediocre marks while others threw stuff together haphazardly in the 3 days before the deadline and got merits.
In my opinion music is too subjective to grade in any meaningful way (aside from the basics like technique, professionalism).
Your music degree is what you make of it.
[/quote]

I agree with this. I think there is a lot to be said for being able to focus on the musiking for a few years to see where that level of focus can take you but, ultimately, the 'truth' will out and a lazy student will not progress as fast as a hard working one (when I work with 'celebrity' Jazz musicians, there is often a clear link between the amount of study and practice they do and their ability to play). There are those savants we all hear about who can play without doing the work but I don't really believe in the hype. Pat Metheny was apparently offered a teaching post at Berklee after only six months studying there. In playing terms, if you do the work, the qualification is kind of irrelevant and there is plenty of evidence that independent study can offer rewards that are equal to formal study (all the Royal London College of Music degree students that I play with are sharing the bandstand with me, aren't they?).