Turn It Down!

[oggiesnr]

I have the misfortune to live near a pub. The new owner is great, still puts on live music but looks after the noise levels, has changed the angle of the stage, controls the punters leaving etc and it's fine.

The previous manager was a t**d. Try lying in bed at midnight on a Saturday night, middle of summer, knowing you have to be up at 5.00 am and being able to write down the setlist and also which words the singer screwed up!

Sure we complained, every week and eventually the Council served a prohibition order.

I do wonder why for a smallish pub (200 capacity) why some bands felt the need to mike the drums and backline up through 3000+ watts of PA.

I'm also amazed at the bar staff, how they can work at some of the volumes is beyond me. If they worked in a factory ear protection would be mandatory.

Steve

PS Before some says it, it wasn't a pub when we moved here, it was a furniture shop and the carpark was a sales lot. We objected to Planning Permission but Bristol routinely over-rules rejections by local planners which is what happened here.

[JTUK]

[quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1402309735' post='2471863']
+ a million. Playing drums quietly has to be the single most underrated skill on any musical instrument.
[/quote]

Not possible to play acoustic drums quietly. If you are talking about barely hitting them then the gig can't handle a drummer
and that should be the focus, not the drummer himself.
Of course, if the drummer sounds like he is digging a trench then that is another thing...but there is a certain level you can't be expected
to go below, and still be able to play properly.

If you are talking about tippy-tappy drummers, then they aren't drummers you want on a decent gig, IMO.
If a venue is booking rock type bands, then volume is a given...so the parameters have to be reasonable.

[discreet]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1402311432' post='2471880']
I'm sorry for all of you in bands with people who insist they have to play loud to make it work. They are wrong.
[/quote]

This plus lots. I'm fairly unique in that I have used ear protection continually for four decades, so can still actually hear properly. My contemporaries have damaged hearing at best and are nearly deaf at worst. 'People my age' generally like it loud, principally because they can't bloody hear it otherwise. As someone has already said, even an apparently 'quiet' band are loud enough to damage your hearing. I wear ear protection as a matter of course every time I leave the house - London can be a very noisy city.

Edited June 9, 2014 by discreet

[chris_b]

I don't know how any venue expects to get away with no complaints when they leave the windows open on a band night!

Play as loud as you like but if people complain about the volume levels then you are too loud. Either don't do inappropriate gigs, turn down, use more realistically sized gear, use your ears, plug in your brain but don't argue.... if you are told you're too loud.... you are, and it's your problem to fix!

If noise meters are generally installed they will stop most bands playing live. If anyone's excuse for p"ssing off the neighbours is "the drummer doesn't have a volume control" or equivalent nonsense then they're hastening that day.

We saw 4 or 5 gigs close last year because of complaints about noise, several more are on notice and many have strict curfew times. We even offered to do an acoustic gig for one place but they were so scared of the locals they couldn’t afford to take the risk.

Around here the trend is to turn gigs into "gastro" pubs, the Bulls Head, probably the Grey Horse, the Half Moon only just escaped and there are more.

There are many reasons to lose a gig but suicide by noise is the stupidest reason. We all lose if these gigs go to the wall.

Edited June 9, 2014 by chris_b

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='gadgie' timestamp='1402284983' post='2471661']
Don't quote me on this, but I think there is only 3dB difference between a 50w and 100w valve head. [/quote]

So having a 100W valve head isn't a problem then

[quote]I think 30w is plenty loud enough as well even if you want 'clean' Now I'm talking guitar here not bass. I'm surprised by the amount of guitarists that don't know to knock back the volume on their guitar to clean up their sound. I once played in a band with a guy that changed his amp loads of times in the past because he couldn't get a clean tone. I asked him to knock back on the guitar....no problem.[/quote]

Turning the volume down on a guitar changes the sound in a different way to turning the master volume on the amp down. If you use pedals then it can make even more difference. At the risk of repeating myself, 100W amps turned down to sensible levels sound different to low wattage amps running at the same volume (and many, many people prefer the tone of the louder amps in this scenario). Bass players need to stop obsessing over the wattage of guitarists amps. Its irrelevant. What matters is how loud your guitarist is actually running the amp.

Arbitrarily insisting that "30W is always enough for a guitarist" is as stupid as a guitarist insisting that "you don't need a bass amp at all, just DI it into the PA".

[tinyd]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1402313078' post='2471903']
Not possible to play acoustic drums quietly. If you are talking about barely hitting them then the gig can't handle a drummer
and that should be the focus, not the drummer himself.
Of course, if the drummer sounds like he is digging a trench then that is another thing...but there is a certain level you can't be expected
to go below, and still be able to play properly.

If you are talking about tippy-tappy drummers, then they aren't drummers you want on a decent gig, IMO.
If a venue is booking rock type bands, then volume is a given...so the parameters have to be reasonable.
[/quote]

I'm not saying that drummers should always play quietly, but the best drummers I've heard can play quietly when called upon. It's not that they're good drummers because they play quietly, it's more that good drummers have their technique honed to such a degree that they are capable of playing quietly while keeping the groove together. I suppose it depends a lot on genre as well - obviously some styles are pretty 'full on' without much dynamic range.

[Dad3353]

We're not the 'typical pub rock band', I suppose, but we don't do badly; we only have one set of gear, and so don't 'tailor-make' for each venue. Bass is a 200w Hiwatt head into either a 4x10 Ampeg or 'Giggles', an HH 2x15 folded horn. Guitar 1 is a 2x90w Mesa Simul, that's a conservatively-rated180w of guitar valve amp. Usually with a Mesa 4x12 and Marshall 4x10 cab; rarely the Mesa alone. Guitar 2 is a Marshall 1/2 stack, 100w valve into 4x12. My acoustic drums are usually un-miced, or kick and 1 overhead. PA is a 2x300w power amp with HK tops; no subs. We use the same configuration in bars, marquees, outdoors or festival stages (where we have FOH...). We are not too loud, even in tiny pubs, as we are all able to obtain the sounds required for our repertoire of pop/rock (Radiohead, AC/DC, Pink Floyd, Noir Desir, Bowie and more...) by simple command of both the instruments and amps. It is perfectly feasible to play adequately in any genre without decibels. There is no need. Yes, if any of us wanted to go LOUD, it would be all too easy, but we wouldn't have played all these years together, nor been asked back so much if we did that. Others may do things differently, certainly, but I don't think that one could say that it was [i]necessary[/i].

Edited June 9, 2014 by Dad3353

[cheddatom]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1402268790' post='2471621']
How can it be loud if you're using earplugs? Isn't that a bit like using 1000W lightbulbs at home and then wearing sunglasses to reduce the glare? What's the point?
[/quote]

Without volume the low frequencies won't vibrate your balls, and surely that's what everyone wants? I mean, it's why we all play bass, right?

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1402311935' post='2471890']
... If they worked in a factory ear protection would be mandatory....
[/quote]

This is very important to me. I don't understand why there's no legislation for this. I know I said it last week but I just don't understand why we have people calling themselves professional sound engineers who then subject themselves to volume levels which are demonstrably damaging their hearing. Not just theirs, but all the staff, and all the customers.

When I go to a venue on the rare occasion I've forgotten my ear plugs I feel like I'm being assulted through the ears.

I play drums in a few bands. The rock band I play LOUD, the reggae band not so much, the folk band I play quiet. I wear ear plugs for all of them

[paul_5]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1402320623' post='2472060']
Without volume the low frequencies won't vibrate your balls, and surely that's what everyone wants? I mean, it's why we all play bass, right?
[/quote]

THIS

[JTUK]

I generally have a look round to see who is talking to who and how in various parts of the room
and if it looks reasonably comfortable then we are ok.
The drummer we use...and the one before could put it out there and the kit sounds great
but to be able to do what they do..they need to be playing the kit properly and that is going to
be at a volume. You can use quiet kits and loud kits but you need to be hitting them
pretty well if only to balance the cymbals.
We are punchy loud...and we are known for the sound as well... but the first thing we ask
of enquires is, 'have you seen us' as this is what we do and how we do it.
There isn't any reason or room for much movement on that.
I wear plugs most of the time as it is a constant exposure thing for me...but there is no point if
I can't hear the BV's or any of the players...that would be just plain stupid.
We aren't the loudest but far from the quietest either... but then some of them don't count ..
but the balance is good. None of this, I can't hear what I am playing nonsense.
Basically, do you know your remit..??

[Marvin]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1402315824' post='2471977']
So having a 100W valve head isn't a problem then



Turning the volume down on a guitar changes the sound in a different way to turning the master volume on the amp down. If you use pedals then it can make even more difference. At the risk of repeating myself, 100W amps turned down to sensible levels sound different to low wattage amps running at the same volume (and many, many people prefer the tone of the louder amps in this scenario). Bass players need to stop obsessing over the wattage of guitarists amps. Its irrelevant. What matters is how loud your guitarist is actually running the amp.

Arbitrarily insisting that "30W is always enough for a guitarist" is as stupid as a guitarist insisting that "you don't need a bass amp at all, just DI it into the PA".
[/quote]

It's a problem because in most instances the guitarist has very little leeway to turn down their volume. In my experience they barely nudge it off of 0 on the master and it becomes insanely loud, hence they only have two volumes - one is where they make ears bleed, the other is complete silence. Surely it would be better to run gear which they could have more control over.

[Lozz196]

I think with both guitars and bass, the usage of big cabs gets a different type of sound than using just the one speaker. For me, I prefer multiple speakers on bass, to give depth, not volume, and one speaker for guitar, to give a cutting sound, wthout too much depth.

Agree re the high-powered amps as above though, an old Laney 50 watt valve head I had was either off, very loud, or ear-splitting. Now having worked with guitarists having 1x12 30 watt valve combos, I`m so pleased that manufacterers make these.

[Old_Ben]

A lot of the time it's people who don't know how to use their equipment that just crank up the volume hoping to hear themselves, while they are standing about 10" away from their speakers / amp, which is aimed right through their legs, and not at their ears. While the drummer gets the adrenaline rush and subconsciously hits harder, making everyone turn up more.

If a pub wants to have control over the noise outputted they sound invest in setting up soundproofing, and having decent monitors, a PA and a sound-man, who knows how to EQ the monitors so the band won't turn up needlessly. If they don't want noise complaints from neighbours, check out bands your booking and see what you'll need / if the band are suitable for your pub / club. Just doesn't make sense to me why they would be so conscious about the volume, and blame the band who they booked, instead of not preparing properly!

[KingBollock]

My wife gets rather annoyed at all the calls the police get on weekends from people complaining about the noise from the pub next door. And they don't just complain about the music, "There are people standing outside the pub waiting for taxis and they are talking!", is a common one, apparently. My wife's view of it is "Well, you moved in next door to a pub, what exactly did you expect? The pub has been there far longer than you!", though she doesn't actually say it.

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1402330440' post='2472292']
My wife gets rather annoyed at all the calls the police get on weekends from people complaining about the noise from the pub next door. And they don't just complain about the music, "There are people standing outside the pub waiting for taxis and they are talking!", is a common one, apparently. My wife's view of it is "Well, you moved in next door to a pub, what exactly did you expect? The pub has been there far longer than you!", though she doesn't actually say it.
[/quote]

In most towns now this is not the case. When we moved here there were five pubs within half a mile of our house, there are now four within fifty yards!

Also, remember licensing hours? Pubs closing at 11.00 pm? Now it's midnight or later (the one next door is 2.00 am at weekends).

Yes there are people who move near music venues and complain but that's the exception. Good venues manage the noise and have good relations with neighbours. Bad venues deserve to be shut!

Rant over

Steve

[Stealth]

Two penneths

If you play rock or any covers really in a pub your job is to sell beer. When i goto to a pub gig i usually drink whereas a pucker music venue normally not. While you having the drink (that allows the landlord to pay you) you wanna have a chat with you mates not a full conversation but a few comments about the band whatever without screaming.

Go to Maplin get a decibel meter cheap as chips so you can gauge volume between venues.

The majority of pub bands i see have spent probably £10k minimum on instruments and back line. Then by a dirt cheap PA cos its only for vocals which sounds as harsh as hell as its pushed to its limit !

Sadly its us bassplayers who are the root of all sonic evil along with the kick drum its what you can hear loudest outside windows shut or not .

Edited June 9, 2014 by Stealth

[skankdelvar]

An overlooked aspect to 'too loud' is the issue of EQ. Too many hobby guitarists negligently over-emphasise the top end - the dreaded 'icepick in the ears' thing.

They may not necessarily be very loud but it bloody hurts, particularly if they're wielding a Telecaster. If they'd just roll the tone knob back 25-50% it eases the pain and the guitar sits better in the mix, IME.

Edited June 9, 2014 by skankdelvar

[Bottle]

I used to have a mahoosive backline - EBS 4x10 and 1x15, plus two 1x12 cabs in a stack, probably close to 1,300W power handling with all the amps I was running. Absolutely insane overkill for a church band.

I learnt the error of my ways I have now downsized to just the two 1x12 cabs being powered by a single channel of a 200w PA amp, and my effects go through a small bass/guitar 1x10 combo cab. I think this will be plenty. I'm no longer obsessed with absolute volume any more (and my back thanks me )

I think you need to carry gear appropriate to the venue and the style of music - unfortunately these are sometimes mutually exclusive. Judgement comes with experience.

Ian