jonnythenotes Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I use an Orange Terror sp2x12 combo, and link this with another Orange sp2x12 cab...so volume is never an issue, but fullness of sound is. I am looking for a bit of advice on how a powered cab might help, and how they work. I can go thru the bands PA, but that always seems as I am losing control of my sound. ....Question..Can I run an XLR from the output of my amp ( exactly the same as I would to a mixing desk,) but into a powered bass cab. Gallien Krueger do 4x10 and 2x12 powered cabs....Are these suitable, or have I got this completely wrong. In a nutshell, I am trying to create a mini bass PA that only I will use, and in larger venues where my back line is not moving enough air, I could plug the powered cab in. As I said, Volume is not the issue, its just that the 12 inch speakers are obviously not doing the same as 15 or 18 inch speakers would, and turning my volume up on stage to avoid the PA just deafens everybody on the stage. Any help, advice or recommendations would be hugely appreciated.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 (edited) [quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1402850475' post='2477230'] I use an Orange Terror sp2x12 combo, and link this with another Orange sp2x12 cab...so volume is never an issue, but fullness of sound is. [/quote] If your driving 4 12 inch speakers and not getting enough "fullness" then something is wrong with your setup. --- edit --- Just realised youve presumably got those isobaric doodahs. Bin them and get some proper speakers - they obviously arnt up to the job. Not really much point in using small cabs if you have to use 2 of them and add more speakers to get a decent sound. Edited June 15, 2014 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolo Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Aye, get two real 212s. Or set up away from the wall and angle them towards your ears and redo the eq sensibly maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Ok 'fullness' and 'wallop'. We are talking lower mids here, not something lacking in the OTB head from having heard one. I have no experience of isobaric speakers though, beyond a quick try-out at Anderton's one time. My best suggestion would be to try out a completely different rig on one of your gigs and see (or hear) whether you have the same problem. Whereabouts are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Thanks for the comments so far guys, but changing my speakers will change nothing. I spent a lot of time comparing various12 inch cabs and went for the Orange as they give me exactly the sound I want...plenty of lows and mids. They are also very portable, easy to use, and really loud, ( as and when required.... which is rarely. ) What I am trying to do is improve my off stage sound with a powered bass cab, which means setting the powered cab away from the stage area...next to the pa perhaps. In my question, I was referring to 'fullness' in relation to the sound the audience hears.. normally delivered by a combination of back line and pa. All I want to do is put something in place as an alternative to going thru the pa, providing the venue is not so big that I HAVE to go thru the pa. In my initial post I was asking for help and advice on powered bass cabs (sentence 3 my first post.) Finally, what I did not put in my first post was the type of music I play.... funk. Perhaps this is why Bassman and Bolo have suggested 'binning' my existing gear and getting some 'proper stuff'. As they play heavy rock and thrash metal, they would both find my stuff unsuitable. So, anyone out there know about powered bass cabs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) [quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1402891780' post='2477554'] Thanks for the comments so far guys, but changing my speakers will change nothing. I spent a lot of time comparing various12 inch cabs and went for the Orange as they give me exactly the sound I want...plenty of lows and mids. They are also very portable, easy to use, and really loud, ( as and when required.... which is rarely. ) What I am trying to do is improve my off stage sound with a powered bass cab, which means setting the powered cab away from the stage area...next to the pa perhaps. [/quote] Have you not ever paused and wondered why it is that you seem to have an almost unique problem amoungst bass players the world over inhabiting small/medium venues- namely that your cabs produce "exactly the sound you want" and are also "really loud" yet don't sound good out front. The thing is that really only two possibilities present themselves: (1) millions of bass players in this situation have a crap out front sound lacking any "wollop" and simply havnt realised it or (2) your speaker cab are deficient at projecting lower mids/lows. The laws of probability are not on your side. Edited June 16, 2014 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Thanks for your expert sarcasm, when what I really would like is a bit of help and advice. As I said earlier, my sound,which has nothing to do with volume, is right for what I want, and the two Orange cabs can be very loud if required. I am only asking if any players have used, or are familiar with powered cabs, and can they be used to boost off stage sound quality, while at the same time keeping on stage volumes to a reasonable level. So forgetting what cabs they are, the sound from them, and the volume they can or cannot produce, are powered cabs an alternative to going thru a pa in a medium sized venue. Perhaps the laws of probability will eventually help answer a simple and straightforward question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) [quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1402904480' post='2477609'] Thanks for your expert sarcasm, when what I really would like is a bit of help and advice. As I said earlier, my sound,which has nothing to do with volume, is right for what I want, and the two Orange cabs can be very loud if required. I am only asking if any players have used, or are familiar with powered cabs, and can they be used to boost off stage sound quality, while at the same time keeping on stage volumes to a reasonable level. So forgetting what cabs they are, the sound from them, and the volume they can or cannot produce, are powered cabs an alternative to going thru a pa in a medium sized venue. Perhaps the laws of probability will eventually help answer a simple and straightforward question. [/quote] For smaller venues with small PA's your cabs should be more then enough anyway. For larger venues, they should have a decent PA setup where it would not need another powered speaker. Adding a powered speaker coming direct from your amp would really annoy any sound engineer I know because it takes away control of your volume from them. Also having a dedicated speaker for your bass would make it very easy for you to dominate the front of house mix even if you don't mean to and you aren't going to be able to monitor it because you aren't out front when playing. I have never seen a bass player add a personalized powered cab for the audience only to hear. I think what the above people are saying are right, they are giving you advice but they aren't really saying what you want to hear. You should be looking at the way the signal comes from your amp, the pre-amp settings (What sounds good to you playing on your own sounds completely different in a band mix, adjust for the PA not for what you hear on stage) or talking with the sound engineers to help get the audience facing sound you want to achieve. Edited June 16, 2014 by Shockwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Is setting up a di channel through the bands PA not an option? I would have thought it would be much easier to adjust your sound in the mix rather than add your own stand alone cab. I know you want control of you sound but surely once you adjust your sound through the desk it is only volume levels that will need adjusting on the desk. Just my 2p worth...... :-) Edited June 16, 2014 by Number6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I just don't get it. If my amp's not loud enough I give a DI feed to the soundman to put through the PA. What's the problem with this? I certainly wouldn't want to have my own personal PA which the soundman can't control. How would I possibly know what the mix is like out front? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Thanks Shockwave.... it was just an idea I had to try and spread the volume of my bass more evenly thru a venue. I am far from being an expert...that's the reason of my request for help. Still on this subject, when and where would you use a powered bass cab? I know that Gallien Krueger make 2 types...a 4x10 and a 2x12,both with xlr inputs, to run from the xlr output at the back of an amp.( This is what gave me the initial idea of running into one set off stage.) Judging by the number of posts you have made, you may have come across em' before. Thanks again.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Hi number 6 and Cheddatom. Going thru the Pa would be ideal, but unfortunately the pa the band owns is a bit of a cheapo, and we have not got a dedicated sound man... The guitar player sets it up, and has to tweek it as the set progresses. Its the same old story.. A good pa would solve all the problems, but the one we have is pretty poor, and as soon as the bass is added, it really cant cope. Trying to get other band members to put money in to by a new pa is like pulling teeth. If we were working a lot more we could probably do this, but not at the moment. I have tried the option of using my gear without going via the pa to carry thru venue, (which it can do,) but the on stage volume climbs as other band members turn up. The Orange cabs I use are both rated at 600 watts each, and are driven by the terror amp rated at 500 watts @ 4ohms. Thanks for the advice...and keep it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) Unless the venue is massive, I wouldn't be worried about the spread of sound from just your amp. Bass permeates everything, It will be heard. For larger venues, you could buy a couple of powered cabs and put them through the PA? That would solve the problem. Everything is centralized through a mixer and can be controlled off stage. Edited June 16, 2014 by Shockwave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Great stuff Shockwave...Its all starting to make a bit of sense to me now... Sorry about my ignorance..I am not a bad player, but all the gear stuff is a little bit over my head..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 [quote name='jonnythenotes' timestamp='1402909497' post='2477671'] Hi number 6 and Cheddatom. Going thru the Pa would be ideal, but unfortunately the pa the band owns is a bit of a cheapo, and we have not got a dedicated sound man... The guitar player sets it up, and has to tweek it as the set progresses. Its the same old story.. A good pa would solve all the problems, but the one we have is pretty poor, and as soon as the bass is added, it really cant cope. Trying to get other band members to put money in to by a new pa is like pulling teeth. If we were working a lot more we could probably do this, but not at the moment. I have tried the option of using my gear without going via the pa to carry thru venue, (which it can do,) but the on stage volume climbs as other band members turn up. The Orange cabs I use are both rated at 600 watts each, and are driven by the terror amp rated at 500 watts @ 4ohms. Thanks for the advice...and keep it coming. [/quote] You could maybe add a powered sub to the PA so that it could handle the bass? I think powered bass cabs are generally for rigs without an amp, so you could use just a pre-amp and plug straight into the powered cab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razze06 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Also, the GK powered cabs would have their own signature sound, and probably will not sound exactly like the Orange cabs you like. I had a similar concern once, and realised it was unfounded after using a very long lead, and playing for a little while in the middle of the room. My bass sound was a lot fatter and richer out there than at the front. try it, if you want to check what you sounds like out there, or get someone to record some stuff while you gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 [quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1402907329' post='2477648'] I have never seen a bass player add a personalized powered cab for the audience only to hear. [/quote] Thats the very point I'm trying to make. If your going to use a powered cab then just use that instead of rather than in addition to the existing cabs. A Bass Terror amp and any decent speaker setup should easily cope with a small/medium venue unassisted, I've played gigs in 400-500 person venues such as school assembly halls and sports centers using middle of the road 3-500 watt amps and a 4x10 cab without PA support and had no problems getting a good full out front sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Thanks for all the advice so far fellas. I am beginning to realise that sorting out the root cause of the problem might be better than throwing a untested idea at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Look into the threads about the Barefaced Big Twin 2 as an alternative to the Orange cabs, may do what you're after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share Posted June 16, 2014 Just checked out the barefaced big twin 2 Graham....Wowzer.... Need more info...and price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tdw Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 If i understand the problem is that the sound from your rig fails to provide the volume or balanced sound you want out front. If you cant rely on the PA (which would be the best/easyist option)then you could buy the above mentioned big twin 2 or some other PA style bass cabs like acme b2. However these cabs although able to provide a fairly balanced sound throughout the venue (most bass cabs will not do this and are really more for onstage use) are expensive and power inefficient so you may also have to buy a big new very powerful amp aswell as new cabs!. Buying a powered cab would help somewhat with volume but probably not with evenness of sound. Unfortunately the best option (imo) is to use the PA and if neccesary trade it in for a more powerful one. I cant see an easy answer as the problem seems to be that the pa is not up to the job. As Razze06 said earlier its a good idea to go outfront at soundcheck with a long lead and listen to the sound you make, sound onstage can be very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 On-stage sound is often [u]very[/u] different. I found this out by the long-lead method myself, sound-checking. Had a great on-stage sound, loads of depth but plenty enough top-end to be crisp and the notes to be heard cleanly. Out front, where the crowd would be, all I heard was undefined mush. So lesson learned, I now have a far more middy sound on-stage than I actually like, but when I go out front this is clear defined bass, all that scratchy stuff seems to evaporate and I get a nice solid bass sound, but where each note is audible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMG456 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I suspect that most bass rigs these days are designed with the assumption that there will be reinforcement available from a pa system. Back in the 70's I used an Acoustic 371 rig. The cabinet was a folded horn with one 18" driver which faced the back of the cab. Almost any room I played, I could have a comfortable volume onstage whilst at the back of the room, the bass was nailing them to the wall! The cab was a long-throw design which was meant to project the sound outwards and it really worked, meaning that I rarely needed any help from the PA. It also lead to many "discussions" with sound men who had no way of taming the bass out front. And therein lies the problem with your proposed solution of a speaker whose output you can't actually hear. So I would suggest, get a sound that you are happy with on stage. This will make you play better and enjoy your performances more. Let the front of house sound take care of itself. Most of the audience won't care or notice and the sound man will do as he thinks fit. In my experience of going to see gigs, only about 1 in 30 or so sound men seem to be able to get even a vaguely acceptable bass sound audible to the audience so I gave up worrying about that side of things long ago! Make yourself happy, you will make the band happy, the music happy and the crowd happy! God I'm feeling good today! Cheers Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throwoff Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 [quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1402998780' post='2478609'] I suspect that most bass rigs these days are designed with the assumption that there will be reinforcement available from a pa system. Ed [/quote] I suspect you are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnythenotes Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Absolutely overwhelmed by all the help and advice...and the time you all have taken to help me on this. So much good 'stuff ' to think about. One thing is for certain, if you are a bass player, and have a problem, or something you are not to sure of...don't be afraid to ask, there is so much help out there. Cheers chaps, and thanks so much. And don't stop yet...The more advice, the easier the resolution should be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.