TAB or no TAB on transcriptions?

[AntLockyer]

I'm possibly a better musician in your idea of what a musician is for knowing theory yes.

[quote]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]You should absolutely know you're doing.[/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Of course it makes a difference knowing what key you're in[/font][/color]
[/quote]

You speak in absolutes but you don't say why. If someone is in a covers band and can play the covers they need to in a way that gets them gigs and makes it enjoyable for listeners I'd say they don't need anything else.

[wal4string]

Tab is the devils work. Was invented in the [color=#252525][font=sans-serif]Renaissance and Baroque eras, and in my opinion thats where it belongs. Next you will be asking if rubbing two sticks together is better than matches. Cough. [/font][/color]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='wal4string' timestamp='1405028208' post='2498189']...[color=#252525][font=sans-serif]Next you will be asking if rubbing two sticks together is better than matches. Cough. [/font][/color][/quote]

... to which the answer would be 'Yes, in some circumstances, as could be a magnifying glass, or a cigar lighter, or a piezo spark. It all depends'.

(... [i]and I should get that cough seen to, if I were you[/i]... )

[wal4string]

Only my opinion but, TAB is so old hat, like 300 years. Transcription is far quicker and easier, feel the heat from that fire and it also enables you to play tunes you have never even heard before. Having said that when TAB is written logically it can make sense, unfortunately the vast majority (99.99%) of TAB is written for folks who know the tune already as no syncopation is ever considered. However, I have found one site which has moved on a few hundred years in this matter

[url="http://www.guitar.ch/en/info/frames/tabs/set.html"]http://www.guitar.ch...s/tabs/set.html[/url]

if all TAB was written like this I would have no problem. Now cough.
Just kidding mate.

Edited July 10, 2014 by wal4string

[Thunderbird]

I am not a serious player but I have found Tab has helped me play better as I find it easy to digest I would like to be able to read music but I am just happy to play the songs and enjoy learning them , I know my own ability I am never going to be the next superstar bass player or a pro musician so I just enjoy it for what it is "a Hobby"

[Bobthedog]

I am still a newbie to learning bass and am using the Rockschool books (and tutor) to get through the various grades. This uses both tab and notation, however, as a newbie I am only using the timing from the notation and the tab for which bit of the string to press or string to pick. I am not convinced I am really learning to "read" music or understand theory by this method. I do want to however.

I have been passed an exercise to do by my tutor of coming up with 4 improvisation pieces around three minor chords. Yes I know the shapes and the root notes as a starter, but as to what I can do with them, I am struggling with that.

I do like the Swiss site link above though that seems to be a reasonable blend.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Bobthedog

[lobematt]

[quote name='Bobthedog' timestamp='1405083439' post='2498683']
I have been passed an exercise to do by my tutor of coming up with 4 improvisation pieces around three minor chords. Yes I know the shapes and the root notes as a starter, but as to what I can do with them, I am struggling with that.
[/quote]

Whenever I do exercises like that with my students it always seems to make more sense with a backing track or at least a drum beat. Have a look at Jim Dooley Drums on Youtube or I'm sure a quick search will find some others, and try and improvise through your chords along to a beat. It just gives your exercise a little bit of context =)

[paulears]

I looked at your transcriptions and they are clear, easy and good representations of what my brain told me. Tab would give you what? where to put your fingers, but no idea at all how to play it. I hear people saying it's important because you need to make sure fingers go on the fret the original player used, but why? I have big hands and find that I don't need to do some weird fingerings because I can reach the simpler fingering frets. For me it makes some phrases much more fluid. I've no interest in tab at all, and never use it - although I do see why some people use it. For bass, which unless you play chords, I can't really see the point. Conventional notation has proven efficient over hundreds of years, and is pretty universal. I find some people's style difficult, but yours works well for me.
Paul

[peteb]

[quote name='sybass6' timestamp='1404862955' post='2496574']
The problem with TAB is that there is no musical information or content contained in it...

TAB will not help you develop as a bass player and certainly won't help you musically...

[/quote]
I don’t agree with these statements at all…

After struggling for a while to get to grips with the harmonics on Portrait of Tracy, I found a remarkably accurate TAB online. Now, I would suggest that you would have to be a pretty accomplished reader to sight read a standard notation transcription of PoT. Even if I had managed to find my way through all the ledger lines, I still would not have known that the high D harmonic is just in front of the 3rd fret on he G string, yet alone that the Eb is an artificial harmonic played at the 6th fret whilst fretting the B at the second fret of the A string. But I do now because I managed to find a decent TAB…!

The upshot of this is that now I can play a passable version of Jaco’s signature piece and in the process have learnt a load of stuff about harmonics, some of which I have incorporated into my playing. So how can you say that that there is no musical information or content contained in TAB? Surely it just shows you how to play a piece (just like notation) and what you get out of it depends on your understanding of music and how you apply that to interpret the transcription??

[paul_5]

I've found myself more relaxed about TAB recently. 6 months ago I would have said 'no TAB', but hey, if it helps less experienced players get enjoyment out of playing good lines, then who am I to be a buzzkill?

One caveat though - having put TABs on parts in Sibelius it will (by default) place the notes as close to the nut as it can, that might not be the easiest or best sounding position to play the line in.

One example was YYZ by Rush: the first phrase can be played at the 2nd and 4th frets, or down a string at the 7th and 9th frets. i personally think it's easier at the latter because the frets are closer together and the fretting arm isn't so extended, also you're in the right area of the fingerboard for the next phrase, when it moves up a perfect 4th, but Sibelius automatically TABs it near the nut.

If you do decide to print stuff with TABs then just play them through in the suggested position, and just double check that it's not easier (or 'better') elsewhere on the fingerboard.

Just my tuppence.

[scalpy]

TAB is a crutch, useful but not liberating in the end. Plus, I've never been paid to read it, and haven't heard of anyone else who has.

[bagsieblue]

Well, this will get interesting but...speaking from experience:

TAB is a short cut - like most short cuts it is actually a long way round.
I wish I had learnt to read the dots straight away.

[Heket]

I'm an amateur. I vaguely know the treble clef if I think about it, but the bass clef I'm completely new to.

I don't like standard TAB. I do like rhythm notated TAB, the type that they use in some Hal Leonard books. I also like seeing both standard TAB and standard notation together. I like theory and I like getting to the bones of the music, although I'm not sure how notation helps with this, can someone clarify?

Yes, TAB is a shortcut and, as previously stated, it all depends on audience. For me, reading notation requires 2 extra steps before I can play the note - figuring out what said note is and figuring out which of those said notes to use on the fretboard (E string 5th fret or open A?). One day I'll learn notation but a lot of people don't. The original question (which may have already been answered) is do you want to have maximum accessibility requiring extra work or do you want to encourage players to read notation but risk turning others away?

Side question - I find it easy enough to transcribe guitar but I have great trouble following bass in a lot of songs as the notes get drowned out by everything else. How do you easily transcribe bass?

[Grangur]

[quote name='Heket' timestamp='1413111749' post='2574938']
I'm an amateur. I vaguely know the treble clef if I think about it, but the bass clef I'm completely new to.

I don't like standard TAB. I do like rhythm notated TAB, the type that they use in some Hal Leonard books. I also like seeing both standard TAB and standard notation together. I like theory and I like getting to the bones of the music, although I'm not sure how notation helps with this, can someone clarify?

Yes, TAB is a shortcut and, as previously stated, it all depends on audience. For me, reading notation requires 2 extra steps before I can play the note - figuring out what said note is and figuring out which of those said notes to use on the fretboard (E string 5th fret or open A?). One day I'll learn notation but a lot of people don't. The original question (which may have already been answered) is do you want to have maximum accessibility requiring extra work or do you want to encourage players to read notation but risk turning others away?

Side question - I find it easy enough to transcribe guitar but I have great trouble following bass in a lot of songs as the notes get drowned out by everything else. How do you easily transcribe bass?
[/quote]

On your side question of transcription, you can use software to slow an MP3 down and/or change the pitch. Sometimes moving the pitch up a tone or 2 will lift the bass tones out more.

You can also use an EQ in some software to eliminate some of the other tones. I use "Transcribe!" and find it useful. I also have a Tascam, that does much of the same.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Heket' timestamp='1413111749' post='2574938']
. I like theory and I like getting to the bones of the music, although I'm not sure how notation helps with this, can someone clarify?
[/quote]

Taking a few basic theory points ,like key signatures, intervals and chord tones, non of it is shown in tablature.
What is the 3rd of C? It's an E-not fret 2 or fret 7, or 12. What notes are sharpened in the key of A major? I've never seen
a key signature in tablature. In notation, it's all there at the start. How do you know what key a song is in with tab?

That's just a couple of really basic, but important, things. Remember, tablature is instrument specific...theory is not.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413115175' post='2574978']
Taking a few basic theory points ,like key signatures, intervals and chord tones, non of it is shown in tablature.
What is the 3rd of C? It's an E-not fret 2 or fret 7, or 12. What notes are sharpened in the key of A major? I've never seen
a key signature in tablature. In notation, it's all there at the start. How do you know what key a song is in with tab?

That's just a couple of really basic, but important, things. Remember, tablature is instrument specific...theory is not.
[/quote]

Devil's advocate..? There's nothing to prevent writing 'Key: A' at the start of a tab. Maybe more explicit even than the standard notation method..? The 3rd of C is E for major, but Eb for minor. Does standard notation tell us that..? Hmm... Intervals come from knowing theory, not the notation of that theory, I'd say. If the notes are shown in tab, why would one need to know which are sharpened or flattened..? Play 'em 'as is', and they'll be correct.
No, I'm not saying that tab is better, simply that, from a score reading point of view, one only sees the score reading point of view. There are many that see things differently, for many different reasons. Standard notation is excellent, and has proven itself over centuries. That doesn't make it best choice for all, every time. Tab has its place, often. Why would that be a problem..?
...and yes, it's instrument specific. A piece, written in standard notation for piano, would not be suitable for playing on a flute, too. Yes, one could read it, but not play it. Notation doesn't have to be suitable for all instruments. I use drum scores; I'm a drummer. Can they be played (or even read..?) by an organist..? Not really.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Dad3353

[Doddy]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1413116171' post='2574990']


Devil's advocate..? There's nothing to prevent writing 'Key: A' at the start of a tab. Maybe more explicit even than the standard notation method..? The 3rd of C is E for major, but Eb for minor. Does standard notation tell us that..? Hmm... Intervals come from knowing theory, not the notation of that theory, I'd say. If the notes are shown in tab, why would one need to know which are sharpened or flattened..? Play 'em 'as is', and they'll be correct.
No, I'm not saying that tab is better, simply that, from a score reading point of view, one only sees the score reading point of view. There are many that see things differently, for many different reasons. Standard notation is excellent, and has proven itself over centuries. That doesn't make it best choice for all, every time. Tab has its place, often. Why would that be a problem..?
...and yes, it's instrument specific. A piece, written in standard notation for piano, would not be suitable for playing on a flute, too. Yes, one could read it, but not play it. Notation doesn't have to be suitable for all instruments. I use drum scores; I'm a drummer. Can they be played (or even read..?) by an organist..? Not really.
[/quote]

Yes the notes come from the theory, but the notation spells that out for you. It shows you exactly what the note is, not
just where to put your finger. It doesn't matter what instrument you play or what tuning you are in or anything, it's shows
the intervals. The notation does tell you the difference between major and minor-it will all be there in the key signature at the start.
If it is an accidental it will still be notated clearly. I'm sure you could write 'key of A' at the start, but it doesn't tell you anything about
the notes in the piece. You see the key, and you still play the notes 'as is', you just play off the actual notes rather than just numbers.If you have an interest in theory, like the previous poster did, then notes are the basic language that conveys the information.
On your point about instrument specific scores, you could actually give a flautist a piano score and they could play it...they obviously can't play multiple notes at once, but they could play the top line melody. Drum scores are different because you're not dealing with pitches, but the rhythmic part is still the same.Once you learn which line each drum is written on, it's not that much different and still understandable by other musicians.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413118684' post='2575026']
Yes the notes come from the theory...
...
[/quote]

Once again (and maybe for the last time...), I'm not pleading for the supremacy of tab. I just wish that, at least sometimes, the advantages for a beginner, or someone with little interest in the theoretical side, can use tab and enjoy playing. Yes, a lot would be missed, and one may regret that, but folks is folks, and have differing aspirations. The major problem I see with notation is the learning curve. I'm not saying it's difficult, simply that, for someone wanting to play, notation has firstly to be learnt and assimilated before being useful. Tab gives a much more rapid pathway to actually playing something. I know, I know; it only goes so far. Yes, but some folks only want to go so far..! There is no reason, either, to not take an interest in reading notation whilst using tab, either from the outset, or later on. One does not preclude the other.
All I'm really wanting to convey is the utility of tab to many, despite its limitations and flaws. The fact that it is so popular must, I would have thought, demonstrate that it has at least some attraction, surely..? I'm a keen supporter of learning to read, even modestly, standard notation, whatever one's instrument, but equally see no reason for ignoring the benefits to many of alternative notations. Live and let live, maybe..?

Edited October 12, 2014 by Dad3353

[Doddy]

I understand why people would think it's an attractive prospect-hey, it tells you where to put your finger...ace!
What I don't believe is that tab is easier to learn, especially if you are shown basic reading very early on your playing.
I've said in the past-if people want to play from tab, fine, that's their choice, but I will not stop advocating that they
learn to read instead and promoting it's many benefits. The problem is that it always gets people using words like 'elitist',
when that has nothing to do with it.

[Higgie]

Since learning to read actual notation, not only has my playing improved dramatically, but it's also been very helpful in learning more of the theory side of things, as you can actually "see" the relationships between the intervals, and how the key signatures affect what you see and play. For example you would "see" the same C and E notated whether the key be C or Cm, but the key signature will tell you which "E" to play. I've found it's also really developed my ear, too.

I was a long time user of TAB, but since learning to read I'm now a pro musician on a cruise ship, backing different artists every day, seeing the world, having loads of fun, AND getting paid to do it. Wouldn't have been possible without learning to read notation, and no amount of TAB would ever have got me there!

[ras52]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1413115175' post='2574978']
Remember, tablature is instrument specific...theory is not.
[/quote]

This is the crux of the matter for me. Notation allows you to communicate with other musicians, not just other bass players. So in fact it's TAB that's elitist!

[dannybuoy]

Yes learning to read music will make you a better musician, and good on you for doing so. But this does not mean that musicians should be force fed musical notation and denied tab, for that is akin to saying that we should translate everything on basschat into Latin to make us better linguists! Or that we should type all our responses in 1s and 0s to make us better computer scientists!

I would hazard a guess that most bassists/guitarists do not read music well, at least not to the level where they would be easily able to play something quickly by looking at a page. I think the main reason for this, at least for me, is not born out of ignorance or laziness, but more that we already have a commonplace system that is better suited for our instruments, that removes any ambiguity over which octave or position to play in, and is easier to translate visually. To me traditional musical notation is like a cipher, I can decode it into tab in my head, but only very slowly. I prefer to visualise scales etc as moveable patterns on the fretboard, the traditional musical notation system just doesn't sit comfortably in my brain!

Of course if I wanted to become a pro session player, or be able to adapt / play music written by others more easily I should look to brush up on my reading skills, and maybe one day I will. But for now my time is limited, bass is more of a hobby and if every now and then if I want to do an online lesson or learn a piece of music, gimme the goddam tab!


The original question was whether the OP should offer transcriptions in both forms. If you want the maximum amount of people to get the benefit from them, then why not?

[ras52]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1413564250' post='2579692']
The original question was whether the OP should offer transcriptions in both forms. If you want the maximum amount of people to get the benefit from them, then why not?
[/quote]

Space? Anyone looking at just the dots or just the TAB will need to turn the page twice as often as they would otherwise.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1413617114' post='2580114']
Space? Anyone looking at just the dots or just the TAB will need to turn the page twice as often as they would otherwise.
[/quote]

...which helps to combat finger obesity..! Win-win..! [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1413564250' post='2579692']
... that is akin to saying that we should translate everything on basschat into Latin to make us better linguists! Or that we should type all our responses in 1s and 0s to make us better computer scientists!
[/quote]
It's more akin to saying people should learn to read and write instead of merely speaking and perhaps using some kind of shorthand that is quite limited in what it can reproduce about the words spoken.