I'm confused.... next step in my amp puzzle (a self indulgent thread asking for help/advice wanted)

[LukeFRC]

Hello!

So I've probably bent a few peoples ears asking for advice via PM and thought I would throw it open to a wider audience...

Started playing... used to rest the headstock of the bass against a wardrobe to hear it...
the went bought a Vox T25 practice amp,
Joined a band and needed a rig, ended up with a H&K Quantum 600 and a Techsoundsystems 2x12 which was the Schroder type angled baffle job- which was quite nice set up. Not massive sounding though.

I swapped the cab for a Tecamp M210 which was louder, clearer and punchy as hell, and let the H&K amp go (somewhat stupidly in hindsight) and got a nice matching Puma 1000 amp - which was great!

And that was my rig for years. I stuggled with some things sound wise, esp at louder gigs, and always put them down to my basses... which possibly wasn't the case and now think it was the cab design....

About this time we started practicing at a church and put the bass through the PA using a HK D.A.R.T. monitor for me to hear myself... and it sounded great... it had a fairly high roll off at the deep end (-3db at 80Hz) but it seemed to have more bass than my tecamp cab and an amazing flat sound... for the first time in years a P bass sounded like a P bass, a Jazz like a Jazz and my streamer like a streamer - brilliant..... so I started going towards a more clean "PA" type sound...



At which point a sold my cab and bought a brand new barefaced big baby 2 - and used the 1000w the Puma put out to drive it and it was tone nirvana....
Nope
That's what I should have done! but I didn't
I bought a roland combo, which was nice not what I was looking for....
I sold the cab and bought an ACME B2 - which is brilliant, very clean sounding and clear - but a very very low roll off on the low end.
Picked up a ashdown power amp ...
and traded my Puma for a Hellborg preamp as I wanted to try the thing out.... and it's outstanding sounding.....

But the ACME and Hellborg really don't match up well at all. The Hellborg is very very flat and clean sounding, I love it via in ears - and in a more traditionally voiced cab sounds great, but something about the low end being so low, and something about the mids just don't sound right...
The ACME is also great - it goes low, you need to throw a bit of power at it but it's very flat sounding, very articulate and its.... I could imagine putting anything into it and getting out what I'm putting in.... the thread about using an iPad as a preamp has made me think about modelling stuff again (dabbled with a Pod years ago, didn't get on amazingly) and I would imagine that different amp models and even cab would work quite nicely the ACME.

So I want to change something to make it all work better- up to now the preference would be to sell the Preamp as it's worth the most and would free up money to try different heads. But I've been reconsidering that - it's been up for sale for about half a year with not a lot of interest... and I've been using it, and esp the IEM only gigs... it sounds superb and the DI send comes through great through the FOH

So I'm now reconsidering that and wondering do I need to look again at different cabs?
Or different preamps or what?
What would you do?

[LukeFRC]

sorry that was a long post! :S

[HowieBass]

If both head and cab are very neutral sounding maybe you could borrow an amp/cabinet modelling pedal or valve pre-amp pedal if possible and see how that fits in with your rig; if you're close to a decent store (PMT?) then maybe give them a ring, ask if you can take your gear in and try what they've got - at least you ought to be able to play pretty loud in there at approximate gig volume.

Edited June 20, 2014 by HowieBass

[bjelkeman]

Really hard to say without actually hearing what it sounds like now and where you want to go. That said... what HowieBass says is good advice.

But with a really nice preamp and power amp setup, I would try some new cabs. Barefaced or even TKS maybe? Not sure if there are any TKS near you to try. The TKS 2126, S2126 or 212 are really good. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/212014-tks-engineering-cabs-new-to-the-uk/page__st__30__p__2143609#entry2143609

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='bjelkeman' timestamp='1403303087' post='2481776']
what HowieBass says is good advice.
[/quote]

Agreed, Id definately have another go with a modelling pedal. The zoom B3 seems especially highly thought of. With such a good full range system you should have a good play around with EQ as well, its possibly for instance youve just got too much bottom end so could experiment with eg-ing in a low roll off to simulate a more traditional cab. Certainly a lot cheaper than buying one.

[quote]
But with a really nice preamp and power amp setup, I would try some new cabs. Barefaced or even TKS maybe?
[/quote]

The ACME is the benchmark hi fi style cab don't see much mileage in going for another hi fi style cab unless youve got a volume/effeciency problem (which is its only weakness).

Edited June 21, 2014 by bassman7755

[bjelkeman]

Yes, but with LukeFRC saying that the ACME going really low and the mids not sounding right, then I think something like the TKS S2126 could be great. Not as much low end emphasis, great mids and easy to power. But, it is just a suggestion.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1403289423' post='2481594']

But the ACME and Hellborg really don't match up well at all. The Hellborg is very very flat and clean sounding, I love it via in ears - and in a more traditionally voiced cab sounds great, but something about the low end being so low, and something about the mids just don't sound right....
[/quote]

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1403300311' post='2481726']
If both head and cab are very neutral sounding maybe you could borrow an amp/cabinet modelling pedal or valve pre-amp pedal if possible and see how that fits in with your rig; if you're close to a decent store (PMT?) then maybe give them a ring, ask if you can take your gear in and try what they've got - at least you ought to be able to play pretty loud in there at approximate gig volume.
[/quote] thats a good idea, Dood's zoom pedal he's got for sale is quite tempting too!
[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1403346971' post='2481983']
Agreed, Id definately have another go with a modelling pedal. The zoom B3 seems especially highly thought of. With such a good full range system you should have a good play around with EQ as well, its possibly for instance youve just got too much bottom end so could experiment with eg-ing in a low roll off to simulate a more traditional cab. Certainly a lot cheaper than buying one.
...
The ACME is the benchmark hi fi style cab don't see much mileage in going for another hi fi style cab unless youve got a volume/effeciency problem (which is its only weakness).
[/quote] [quote name='bjelkeman' timestamp='1403387615' post='2482360']
Yes, but with LukeFRC saying that the ACME going really low and the mids not sounding right, then I think something like the TKS S2126 could be great. Not as much low end emphasis, great mids and easy to power. But, it is just a suggestion.
[/quote] I think that maybe more playing with Eq might be the answer first, the Hellborg's EQ sounds great but it's not the most precise system I've ever used (from my sound man days I love sweepable frequency points - I've never really used one but it's something that makes the whole Eden/SWR/Thunderfunk family appeal and I came this close to buying a RH450 when they first came out cos... well flashy lights and sweepable EQ! wool).
I kinda agree with both of you - there's no point going for another full range hi-fi cab - the ACME does that- and with the right gear I should be able to mimic a higher roll off like another full range cab would give.... and if that's what the solution is then a new cab, TKS, or possibly a fearful or simplexx would be a good move.

Oh and another thing, slightly OT.... but tested out the effect of the subsonic filter built into the ACG preamp in my Streamer compared to the old EMG type design in my thumb..... utterly stops the big wobbles of the cone!

[3below]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1403289423' post='2481594']
.. it sounds superb and the DI send comes through great through the FOH
[/quote]

You might have part of the answer here - keep it, swap / trade / sell rest of kit, turn these into a good power amp (inherently fairly neutral - or should be) and get same or similar speakers to FOH.

I would suggest experimenting at the other end as well, my biggest game changer has been TI flats, if they had existed (?) If I had found them a long time ago I would have saved a fortune. The next biggest changer was getting a Barefaced Big One (at a bargain price) followed by a Dubster.

[Lozz196]

That`s a really good point, strings have such an impact on tone, yet are so often overlooked. Even picks - for those of us that use them - have a significant impact on this as well.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1403470520' post='2483048']
Oh and another thing, slightly OT.... but tested out the effect of the subsonic filter built into the ACG preamp in my Streamer compared to the old EMG type design in my thumb..... utterly stops the big wobbles of the cone!
[/quote]

Any cone movement that you see with the naked eye is almost certain to be subsonic so that sounds like a very good move. Subsonics are simply stressing your speaker for no audible benefit. Interestingly the puma amps have the "low" control set at 30hz which makes then a very useful adjustable HPF.

Edited June 23, 2014 by bassman7755