Relicked Basses and copyright issues...

[Conan]

Following on from the couple of NBD (or maybe NBPTBOBD* would be more accurate!) threads relating to a certain manufacturer's basses, I thought I would open a new thread to see what people think about the concept.

This is in no way an attempt to stir things up! I think it is an interesting subject but it doesn't belong in a thread about a particular person's new bass.

First of all, and to set the record straight, I have no beef with Limelight guitars. I have looked at a number of them on their website and some of them are beautiful looking instruments. A bit heavily relicked for [i][b]my[/b][/i] taste, but whatever floats your boat!

The reviews that are available so far indicate that these are very well-made basses that sound and feel like the real vintage Fenders upon which they are based - but are available at very competitive prices (around £800 from what I have seen on the website).

But what is the target market?[list]
[*]People who would love a vintage Fender but can't afford one or can't justify the expense?
[*]People who want [b][i]others[/i][/b] to think that they [i][b]can[/b][/i] afford a vintage Fender?
[*]People who own a vintage Fender (or more than one) but would rather not gig them in public due to concerns about damage or theft?
[/list]
I think the thing that makes me slightly uncomfortable is the fact that they have Fender decals on the headstock. Yes, they also have the maker's name written on the back in marker; and they won't have the genuine date stamps in various places - but would they have the same appeal if they lacked the iconic Fender logo?

I really don't have an axe to grind here, and am genuinely interested in what people think.

Oh, and I would quite like one myself - either a Burgundy Mist or Surf Green Jazz with matching headstock in light relic. The playability of a pre-CBS Fender for the price of a MIM Geddy Lee? You'd be daft not to!

*[size=2][i]New bass pretending to be old bass[/i][/size]

Edited June 26, 2014 by Conan

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1403696377' post='2485361']
But what is the target market?[list]
[*]People who would love a vintage Fender but can't afford one or can't justify the expense?
[*]People who want [b][i]others[/i][/b] to think that they [i][b]can[/b][/i] afford a vintage Fender?
[*]People who own a vintage Fender (or more than one) but would rather not gig them in public due to concerns about damage or theft?
[/list]
[/quote]

You forgot:[list]
[*]People who want a bass in that particular colour scheme, with that particular spec, and don't really go for shiny instruments.
[/list]
And:[list]
[*]People who've played one, and bought it 'cos it was nice.
[/list]
I'd fall into the latter category, BTW.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1403696377' post='2485361']

I really don't have an axe to grind here, and am genuinely interested in what people think.

[/quote]

I thought axe-grinding was part of the relic process?

Seriously, I do own a relic instrument (a Fender '59 RI Strat), and I bought it becuse it sounds phenomenal and plays beautifully. Part of the comfort factor is the artificial wear to the neck. I wouldn't have gone out of my way for a relic instrument, but this one wa sput in my hands and it was brilliant.

I do also understand the appeal of these instruments as eye-candy, but until my Strat moment, I never thought them worth the extra dosh.

[Conan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1403697083' post='2485372']
You forgot:[list]
[*]People who want a bass in that particular colour scheme, with that particular spec, and don't really go for shiny instruments.
[/list]
And:[list]
[*]People who've played one, and bought it 'cos it was nice.
[/list]
I'd fall into the latter category, BTW.
[/quote]

Absolutely! Both perfectly good reasons of course My list wasn't meant to be exhaustive - just kind of thinking out loud.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Conan

[martthebass]

The Limelight I have falls into the heavy relic/trashed category.

I dont try to pass it off as a real 63JB but i wanted a reasonably authentic looking 63JB as there was no way I could afford a real YOB Jazz. I got the limelight for 2 other reasons:

1. I couldnt get hold of a Fender RW used and I wasnt paying £1050 for a new one, and

2. I'm a bit precious about pristine basses and I wanted a bass that I wouldnt be precious with at some of the 'funkier' pubs I play.

The side benefit is that the bass plays and sounds superb.

[ead]

My YOB bass would be north of $20,000 so out of my league, therefore I probably fall into the first category. Not played one yet, but have been in discussion about price and spec. I'm not a massive Fender fan, but there is no doubting the iconic nature of designs so I guess that would be my motivation.

Edited June 25, 2014 by ead

[Geek99]

I like a worn in feel and I'm not a big fan of shiny instruments

It's why I rubbed away at the back of the neck and the underside of my p bass with a steel scourer, it feels comfy now

I'm not so confident in relicing the body or metal work so I don't


Anyone have a suggestion how to age nitro laquer ? (Neck and body)

Edited June 25, 2014 by Geek99

[NJE]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1403697247' post='2485376']

Seriously, I do own a relic instrument (a Fender '59 RI Strat), and I bought it becuse it sounds phenomenal and plays beautifully. Part of the comfort factor is the artificial wear to the neck. I wouldn't have gone out of my way for a relic instrument, but this one wa sput in my hands and it was brilliant.

I do also understand the appeal of these instruments as eye-candy, but until my Strat moment, I never thought them worth the extra dosh.
[/quote]

I have had the pleasure of playing a couple of relic instruments and normal custom shop instruments, both were exceptional but the neck and feel of the relic's were out of this world good, simply the nicest playing necks I have come across (actually joint first with a very well played in GB Spitfire). If limelight can recreate the feel of a worn in vintage Fender or a CS Relic or even the roadwork series, then they are not a winner and I am certainly interested.

I hated the idea of relics but have come around to it. I am very precious of instruments getting knocked about, if my bass is pristine I like to keep it that way and I always find the first few dents or chips painful. I also hate that a few marks or scuffs would de-value the instrument if I decided sell it.

I would love a roadworn or CS Relic so that I wouldn't have to worry about it getting knocked or damaged. Some people would say, well just get an old bass, but I am inherently suspicious and would worry that a vintage instrument would have problems, so the answer for me is to get a new well built instrument that you know is reliable that has been knocked about for me so I don't have to worry.

Regarding the Fender logo on limelight, well I can see why people want it, but I would be more impressed if he stopped writing it on the back of the headstock with a sharpie and instead created his own subtle decal for the front much like Nash have done. In fact I would probably be more interested in them if he did that.

[Musicman20]

I think the fact a Roadworn Jazz/Precision is now £1000+ has something to do with it.

Not only that, it's the sheer choice/options available.

I'd like a Fiesta Red/Tort/light relic/rosewood/P neck bass. If I go Fender, it's a Pino, and its money I don't want to invest. Fender make great basses but £3000 or whatever it is for a VERY basic design is just not my thing, (unless I suddenly throw caution to the wind).

[JamesBass]

Having player a 66 P Bass and a 62 P, but not having even seen the amount of money they wanted, let alone have that money to spend, Limelight's custom relic'd vintage feel and look is one I'm highly interested in, I'd love to own an actual 1962 Fender Precision Bass but there's no chance of me having the money to buy one, so my alternative is to have something made up by Limelight or other such people, I wouldn't care if it had Fender on the headstock or not, I just want that comfy warn in feel and tone without the outlay!

[skej21]

[quote name='JamesBass' timestamp='1403701115' post='2485431']
Having player a 66 P Bass and a 62 P, but not having even seen the amount of money they wanted, let alone have that money to spend, Limelight's custom relic'd vintage feel and look is one I'm highly interested in, I'd love to own an actual 1962 Fender Precision Bass but there's no chance of me having the money to buy one, so my alternative is to have something made up by Limelight or other such people, I wouldn't care if it had Fender on the headstock or not, I just want that comfy warn in feel and tone without the outlay!
[/quote]

This for me. Also, I gig quite a lot with a blues band (so aesthetically, the vintage Fender-look fits perfectly) and I would never take out an actual '64 precision for gigging in the places we play lol. However, I do want the look, the feel (and sound) of a vintage Fender without the HUGE insurance bill to cover gigging an actual vintage Fender.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the same as buying a Road Worn series Fender except I get to spec it out :-) With mine, I asked for a J profile neck on a precision body, spec'd out the colour scheme and had the option to part-exchange a bass I wasn't using against it AND it was cheaper than a Road Worn. I would never have had the level of craftsmanship, attention to detail or spec options if I'd just bought a standard production Road Worn Fender model off the shelf.

[discreet]

Same here - my YOB Jazz would be a 1960 stacker. So that's pretty much out of the question. I specced my Limelight Jazz to be as close to the 'real thing' as was practically possible and Mark has done a brilliant job for around a twentieth of the price.

Edit: I've just taken delivery of mine and played it for the first time minutes ago and it feels very familiar and lived-in already...

Edited June 26, 2014 by discreet

[Muzz]

I generally don't like relicing, but the Fender RW Precision I played a while ago was a very, very nice Precision, so I guess I'd put up with the damage, and I can see the point of not worrying about gigging a pre-dinged bass (though I gig my Shuker and Dingwall all the time).

What I [b]completely[/b] don't get is the metalwork relicing - that corrosion's minging, and it does nothing for the feel or sound, it's purely for the look, which doesn't equate in my head.

[Conan]

[quote name='NJE' timestamp='1403699979' post='2485414'] Some people would say, well just get an old bass, but I am inherently suspicious and would worry that a vintage instrument would have problems, [/quote]

I'm with you on that one! Even if I could afford a YOB (1966) Jazz, I would be totally paranoid about being ripped off with something that was not what it seemed.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1403700773' post='2485424']it's the sheer choice/options available.

I'd like a Fiesta Red/Tort/light relic/rosewood/P neck bass. If I go Fender, it's a Pino, and its money I don't want to invest. Fender make great basses but £3000 or whatever it is for a VERY basic design is just not my thing, (unless I suddenly throw caution to the wind).
[/quote]

Very good points!

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1403701895' post='2485443']
Same here - if I wanted a genuine year-of-birth Fender Jazz it would need to be a 1960 stacker. I specced my Limelight Jazz to be as close to the 'real thing' as practically possible and Mark has done a brilliant job for around a twentieth of the price
Edit: I've just taken delivery of mine and played it for the first time minutes ago and it feels very familiar and lived-in already...
[/quote]

Stunning it is too!

[Conan]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1403702539' post='2485448']
What I [b]completely[/b] don't get is the metalwork relicing - that corrosion's minging, and it does nothing for the feel or sound, it's purely for the look, which doesn't equate in my head.
[/quote]

I have to agree. A bit of age-appropriate corrosion is cool, but some of the others look revolting! I mean, who actually wants rusty pole pieces on the pickups and somebody else's gunge on the bridge and tuners??

[discreet]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1403703708' post='2485462']
I have to agree. A bit of age-appropriate corrosion is cool, but some of the others look revolting! I mean, who actually wants rusty pole pieces on the pickups and somebody else's gunge on the bridge and tuners??
[/quote]

It's not somebody else's gunge on the bridge and tuners - it just [i]looks [/i]like somebody else's gunge...

Edited June 26, 2014 by discreet

[sblueplanet]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1403700773' post='2485424']
I think the fact a Roadworn Jazz/Precision is now £1000+ has something to do with it.

Not only that, it's the sheer choice/options available.

I'd like a Fiesta Red/Tort/light relic/rosewood/P neck bass. If I go Fender, it's a Pino, and its money I don't want to invest. Fender make great basses but £3000 or whatever it is for a VERY basic design is just not my thing, (unless I suddenly throw caution to the wind).
[/quote]
Limelight website has one of these for sale at the moment at a very attractive price.

[Conan]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1403706792' post='2485486']
it just [i]looks [/i]like somebody else's gunge...[size=4] [/size]
[/quote]

Eeew! What do they actually use? Do they buy "distressed" hardware from old basses? Or do they buy new ones and carry out some form of aging process on them??

I'm intrigued!

[AntLockyer]

I'm not a fan of relicing. My 62 P is in pretty good condition for its age, certainly not one of those rat look basses. If a company can make it feel played in and old without all the chipped off paint etc. I'd be interested. I'd also be interested if they put their own name on the headstock rather than Fender's.

[Lozz196]

I`m not overkeen on fake relicing, but having played a couple of Fender RW Precisions, am a massive fan of those particular basses. Re Limelight, well there is the advantage of getting a decent instrument that already has the knocks, so you don`t have to worry about it, and at a very reasonable price. I really like the look of actual beat-up guitars, though I do think some of theirs are a bit on the extreme. Am yet to see one in the flesh so to speak, but the thought of a knackered black 70s style Jazz with maple fretboard to match my 78 Precision is a very nice thought.

[JPJ]

I'm neither for or against artificial relic'd basses. What I can say from personal experience is that the one bass in my collection that 'average punters' (i.e. non-muso, regular ladies and gentlemen who like a bit of live music with their pint/fruit based drink) comment on is the fretless P I put together using a relic'd Vintage (brand, not age) white body. Its probably one of the worst 'relic' jobs you can imagine because the exposed wood grain is actually also a paint effect but it seems to be the one bass that attracts praise. My expensive Overwater's don't solicit that sort of response from 'average punters'

That said, its the one bass I don't worry about when gigging as any genuine wear and tear will hardly be noticed

Edited June 25, 2014 by JPJ

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1403696377' post='2485361']
I think the thing that makes me slightly uncomfortable is the fact that they have Fender decals on the headstock. Yes, they also have the maker's name written on the back in marker; and they won't have the genuine date stamps in various places - but would they have the same appeal if they lacked the iconic Fender logo?

[/quote]


Using a decal / trademark etc that the maker has no ownership of - even with a disclaimer - is an offence.

Fender don't really care about hobbyists putting a logo on a bitsa assembled in a shed (although if such a bitsa is sold an offence occurs at that point) , but if someone starts making money using a Fender logo?

They are going to go mental.

[discreet]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][quote name='Conan' timestamp='1403696377' post='2485361']I think the thing that makes me slightly uncomfortable is the fact that they have Fender decals on the headstock. Yes, they also have the maker's name written on the back in marker; and they won't have the genuine date stamps in various places - but would they have the same appeal if they lacked the iconic Fender logo?
[/quote][quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1403720629' post='2485658']
Fender don't really care about hobbyists putting a logo on a bitsa assembled in a shed (although if such a bitsa is sold an offence occurs at that point) , but if someone starts making money using a Fender logo? They are going to go mental.
[/quote]

Interesting points. My view (as a customer) is that a Fender replica wouldn't be a Fender replica without the decal. Mark is not attempting to sell these basses as genuine Fenders even though they have decals on them. However... I'm no legal expert, but a trademark is a trademark and I believe FMIC would be well within their rights to challenge Limelight.

I suppose it depends on whether Limelight become successful enough to come to the attention of Fender and then on how much Fender think that Limelight are damaging their business. But even FMIC don't have limitless resources and they don't go after [i]everyone [/i]who builds Fender replicas. Though they have successfully challenged one or two builders in the USA, I believe.[/font][/size]

Edited June 25, 2014 by discreet

[skej21]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1403731526' post='2485820']
The question Fender, with all their resources should be asking themselves is, "why have we not got this section of the market?"
[/quote]

Great point. For a company like Fender who have designed an instrument that can be mixed and matched easily (bolt on necks which can be switched around, easily changeable hardware etc) they are surprisingly limited in the options they offer to customers, hence this niche that Mark has exploited.

We live in a world where we can tailor our products (phones, iPads, apps, streaming and tv recording boxes rather than live tv) to our individuality, our specific routines and lifestyle and I think the way Limelight works shows us that that some of us want the flexibility to customise aspects of our instrument without having to go to the Fender Custom Shop (which still has too many restrictions for some of us!).

Edited June 25, 2014 by skej21

[fretmeister]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1403729993' post='2485796']
[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]

Interesting points. My view (as a customer) is that a Fender replica wouldn't be a Fender replica without the decal. Mark is not attempting to sell these basses as genuine Fenders even though they have decals on them. However... I'm no legal expert, but a trademark is a trademark and I believe FMIC would be well within their rights to challenge Limelight.

I suppose it depends on whether Limelight become successful enough to come to the attention of Fender and then on how much Fender think that Limelight are damaging their business. But even FMIC don't have limitless resources and they don't go after [i]everyone [/i]who builds Fender replicas. Though they have successfully challenged one or two builders in the USA, I believe.[/font][/size]
[/quote]

It's not just the logo, the headstock shape is protected too. That's why Warmoth etc have to pay licence fees to Fender on the replacements that look the same.

Copyright law says that the owner of the rights has to be proactive and try to stop infringement otherwise the protection could lapse.

Fender don't have Microsoft money, but they can still afford to go after someone with £400 per hour city lawyers. If you are on the receiving end of that you might as well just hand over the deeds to your house.