Why do we need so much power?

[BassBunny]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1404163486' post='2489992']
Speaking as a bass player who has 2 x 700W amps, I have (re)discovered the secret weapon. Playing quietly (now tell that to the drummer) has paid dividends over last few weeks. I am heading towards small stage kit and stick it all through PA (with DSP).
[/quote]
That is exactly what I have done recently. We found that we were getting chronic feedback on the PA, which was traced back to my 500W, 2x12 Bass Rig. It was my vocal mic that was picking up everything. I got hold of a tilt-back Combo, (Line 6 jobbie), and now DI at every gig with the combo at the side of me facing inwards. The difference is astounding. The whole sound of the band is now clearer and more defined and it is powerful enough for me and the drummer to hear.
I've got Mike Walsh to make an "airhead" fitting for the top of my Zoot Cabs, so I can now use 1 cab tilted back with my MarkBass head, or add the 2nd cab if needed.

[oggiesnr]

I suspect it partly dates back to HH and the first cheap PA amps in the mid seventies. Prior to that PAs were relatively small (IOW Festival was the first 1000 watt rig in the UK, soure Sound on Sound). We used to gig clubs etc with 100 vocal PA and backline, big bands would do City Hall with two or four Crown Amcron DC300s. Then came HH (at the same time as Punk) 500 watts a side for £180 and bands were using them in multiples. The Adverts played Hull Uni with a 5000 watt rig.

At this point backlines got bigger and the rest is history. I now see bands playing venues we played at with many times the wattage and with the drums miked up, loud and big becomes the new normal.

Steve

[VTypeV4]

It's a funny thing the old 'power' struggle..

My amps are all in the 'oldskool' bracket as are the speakers I use. In the real world gigging situations I find myself in, I don't require 140dB SPL nor an extended range down to 22Hz as I don't play in a crazy doom setup.

Without getting bogged down in the numbers, I've gigged with less than 60 and in excess of 600w on-stage and it's usually been enough. Can't say as I've sat and thought 'another 100w and this would be cutting the mustard' or indeed how much power the amp is making, just whether it's compressing / clipping..

As an engineer I see lots of modern / lightweigh (Markbass / TC etc) amps coming through as well as any number of big valve (Ampeg being the most common) rigs and the odd SS thing (Carlsboro / Ashdown MAG) thrashed to within an inch of their life all through varying speakers with varying results. Most players seem happy with their system irrespecive of it's power and SPL capability.

In the time I've been playing which has been since the mid-late '90s, I have seen a steady trend of increased power and reductioon of bulk and weight. To me, king of rigs when I started was either a Trace AH600SMX boasting 2 x 300w, the 400w V-Type V6 or of course the big Mesa 400+ or AMpeg SVT. All big and heavy usually associated with lots of speakers which were also big and heavy. Trace specified two 410 and two 115 plus a bright box to get the most out of their 600w offering. Monster! Great sounding but you'd need a transit van plus a roadie to move it! Compare that to todays market..

In a nutshell, power is cheaper today than it's ever been and watts have always been a great marketing point to boot.

I'm happy with my glass bottles irrespectiveof how much power they make..

[xgsjx]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1404491828' post='2493213']
Trace specified two 410 and two 115 plus a bright box to get the most out of their 600w offering. Monster! Great sounding but you'd need a transit van plus a roadie to move it! Compare that to todays market..
[/quote]

It makes me wonder if the person stating the required cabs to get the best from it was from sales or marketing.

[VTypeV4]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1404497317' post='2493283']
It makes me wonder if the person stating the required cabs to get the best from it was from sales or marketing.
[/quote]

And to my knowledge they never made a production 4 ohm 410 or 115 to get 300w per side.. Cheeky!

Most of the time I ran mine with 1153 (compact 15) and 1048H (410 + HF) which was pretty pokey.. I found the 400w model to be pick of the bunch tho..

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1404515342' post='2493498']
And to my knowledge they never made a production 4 ohm 410 or 115 to get 300w per side.. Cheeky!

Most of the time I ran mine with 1153 (compact 15) and 1048H (410 + HF) which was pretty pokey.. I found the 400w model to be pick of the bunch tho..
[/quote] the AH400SMX is one of the amps I would like to buy and have- when you look at the weight and power rating on paper it's quite hard to justify!

[discreet]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1404551039' post='2493614']
Low-wattage tone machines for all!
[/quote]

Yes - but this means quiet, controlled drumming for all, too!

[Chaos Daveo]

It goes to 11.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1404551039' post='2493614']
Irony. People want ridiculously clean amps with massive headroom, so they go out and buy Tech21 VT pedals to put the dirt back into their sound.
[/quote]

Yep, there has to be a market for small powerful amps that can do the dirt as well. I use Markbass as love the sound and where they fit in the mix (very Ampeg-like to me), but do want a bit of dirt, so have done the exact above, Tech21 VT DI. The Markbass Little Mark Tube is nice, but doesn`t add in enough. I`d be happy with a dirtier sounding amp with less headroom, but am yet to find ones that I can carry, and that will fit into the load-space in my car. Markbass + Tech21 does the job nicely at present.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1404551039' post='2493614']
Irony. People want ridiculously clean amps with massive headroom, so they go out and buy Tech21 VT pedals to put the dirt back into their sound.
[/quote]

Its a perfectly reasonable thing to do on several counts: to get a consistent tone irrespective of volume, massive reduction in size weight compared to say a real svt, rig will not be fragile or need servicing (and as added bonus for me, will look like a modern piece of electronic gear rather than a 1960's gramaphone).

Edited July 5, 2014 by bassman7755

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Meddle' timestamp='1404551039' post='2493614']
Irony. People want ridiculously clean amps with massive headroom, so they go out and buy Tech21 VT pedals to put the dirt back into their sound.
[/quote]

People do generally, normally, want a clean power amp. The preamp makes the difference- so sticking a different preamp before it isn't the stupidest thing.

[Grissle]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1404605369' post='2494163']


People do generally, normally, want a clean power amp. The preamp makes tthe difference- so sticking a different preamp before it isn't the stupidest thing.
[/quote]
Actually the power section distortion has as much or maybe more effect on a nice overdriven sound. So its not all the preamp. It's the whole package. Pedals like the VT work to emulate the power section being pushed as well as the pre and explains why its done so well.

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1404567626' post='2493808']
Its a perfectly reasonable thing to do on several counts: to get a consistent tone irrespective of volume, massive reduction in size weight compared to say a real svt, rig will not be fragile or need servicing (and as added bonus for me, will look like a modern piece of electronic gear rather than a 1960's gramaphone).
[/quote]

Quite.
I also prefer to use Class D gear because I have a bad back and have to do my own roadieing!

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1404314328' post='2491507']
That is exactly what I have done recently. We found that we were getting chronic feedback on the PA, which was traced back to my 500W, 2x12 Bass Rig. It was my vocal mic that was picking up everything. I got hold of a tilt-back Combo, (Line 6 jobbie), and now DI at every gig with the combo at the side of me facing inwards. The difference is astounding. The whole sound of the band is now clearer and more defined and it is powerful enough for me and the drummer to hear.
I've got Mike Walsh to make an "airhead" fitting for the top of my Zoot Cabs, so I can now use 1 cab tilted back with my MarkBass head, or add the 2nd cab if needed.
[/quote]

Out of interest, what mic do you use ?

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404004260' post='2488516']
I have read a lot about TC's measurements and methods. My biggest concern with them are they when I've gigged one it was the biggest sucker of any usable tone I've ever encountered. Literally awful sound in a live band context and yet sounded good when tested in a shop and set up at home.
[/quote]

I currently run a TC RH750 through 2 TC cabs (1 x RS212 and 1 x RS210) and, contrary to the above, am getting the [i]best[/i] live sound I've had in decades of playing. Amazing power, clarity and versatility, and in an extremely cleverly designed package, too. Loads of compliments from FoH guys (not that that necessarily means anything, but whatever) and it does everything I want a bass rig to do, and do it really well. I totally understand that tastes differ, and each to their own, fine, but I really cannot understand how you could have had such a bad experience with a TC amp, Molan. Might the problem have lain elsewhere, perhaps?

For a company that makes such horrible-sounding equipment, TC certainly have some very impressive endorsers - John Paul Jones, Janek Gwizdala, Nathan East, Ida Neilsen, etc. etc. Must be paying them a lot of money to put their names to their products!

[discreet]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404637084' post='2494258']
I really cannot understand how you could have had such a bad experience with a TC amp, Molan.
Might the problem have lain elsewhere, perhaps?
[/quote]

I had a negative experience with a TC amp, too... it was a backline TC rig which I hadn't had time to familiarise myself with (so that didn't help) and I couldn't get a sound I liked... there was a lack of definition out front too, by all accounts. This doesn't mean that I'm down on TC particularly, these are merely facts. Obviously TC gear needs getting into. It's not 'plug and play'. Or at least it wasn't for me, anyway.

Edited July 6, 2014 by discreet

[molan]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404637084' post='2494258']
I currently run a TC RH750 through 2 TC cabs (1 x RS212 and 1 x RS210) and, contrary to the above, am getting the [i]best[/i] live sound I've had in decades of playing. Amazing power, clarity and versatility, and in an extremely cleverly designed package, too. Loads of compliments from FoH guys (not that that necessarily means anything, but whatever) and it does everything I want a bass rig to do, and do it really well. I totally understand that tastes differ, and each to their own, fine, but I really cannot understand how you could have had such a bad experience with a TC amp, Molan. Might the problem have lain elsewhere, perhaps?

For a company that makes such horrible-sounding equipment, TC certainly have some very impressive endorsers - John Paul Jones, Janek Gwizdala, Nathan East, Ida Neilsen, etc. etc. Must be paying them a lot of money to put their names to their products!
[/quote]

On balance I know more people who can't get a decent sound with TC than those who can.

The most common complaint is that they just seem to suck all the life out their tone. Maybe there's a lot of artificial compression and tone shaping baked straight into them and this is robbing the bass of its natural sound.

I really wanted to like them when they came out and when the prices plummeted to under £400 for a new one I actually bought both an RH450 and a Staccato but, despite putting a lot of time into each of them, I never found a sound I liked for live work.

The thing that surprised me was that I could get a decent sound at home but they just disappeared in a live mix

One thing I should add is that I've not used a 750 so maybe some of the problems were ironed out when this came out. It was around the time of the massive price drop on the 450's so it does seem that TC were trying to clear these out quickly.

Edited July 6, 2014 by molan

[discreet]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404637084' post='2494258']
For a company that makes such horrible-sounding equipment, TC certainly have some very impressive endorsers - John Paul Jones, Janek Gwizdala, Nathan East, Ida Neilsen, etc. etc. Must be paying them a lot of money to put their names to their products!
[/quote]

An endorsement is just that. It doesn't necessarily mean that these people exclusively use a certain product.
John Paul Jones generally uses SWR gear, for instance.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404637084' post='2494258']


I currently run a TC RH750 through 2 TC cabs (1 x RS212 and 1 x RS210) and, contrary to the above, am getting the [i]best[/i] live sound I've had in decades of playing. Amazing power, clarity and versatility, and in an extremely cleverly designed package, too. Loads of compliments from FoH guys (not that that necessarily means anything, but whatever) and it does everything I want a bass rig to do, and do it really well. I totally understand that tastes differ, and each to their own, fine, but I really cannot understand how you could have had such a bad experience with a TC amp, Molan. Might the problem have lain elsewhere, perhaps?

For a company that makes such horrible-sounding equipment, TC certainly have some very impressive endorsers - John Paul Jones, Janek Gwizdala, Nathan East, Ida Neilsen, etc. etc. Must be paying them a lot of money to put their names to their products!
[/quote]

I also get great tone with TC gear. I find the compression just makes it sound a little more like a pushed tube amp...that's it.

[molan]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1404642213' post='2494311']
An endorsement is just that. It doesn't necessarily mean that these people exclusively use a certain product.
John Paul Jones generally uses SWR gear, for instance.
[/quote]

Janek only ever seems to use Aguilar - that does seem to be a brand that a lot of gigging pros use.

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1404642213' post='2494311']
An endorsement is just that. It doesn't necessarily mean that these people exclusively use a certain product.
[/quote]

You don't say? Gosh, how deluded I have been to think otherwise all these years!

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1404642213' post='2494311']
John Paul Jones generally uses SWR gear, for instance.
[/quote]

Yeah I know, but he was using an all-TC rig last time I saw him (playing with Supersilent) and the sound was amazing.

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404642516' post='2494321']
Janek only ever seems to use Aguilar - that does seem to be a brand that a lot of gigging pros use.
[/quote]

I'm afraid I'm not on first name terms with him so must bow to your superior wisdom on this point! But I can already see that it was a mistake on my part to throw in a flippant joke about celebrity endorsers - far too easy for nay-sayers to shoot down. All that really matters is that my TC rig works for me, and it does that in spades.

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1404641727' post='2494307']
… The most common complaint is that they just seem to suck all the life out their tone. Maybe there's a lot of artificial compression and tone shaping baked straight into them and this is robbing the bass of its natural sound.
[/quote]

Interesting post - thanks for your thoughtful reply, Molan.

The RH 750 does have an onboard compressor, but you have to dial a dedicated knob to activate it, so I'm not sure about there being any artificial compression baked into it as a default setting. Maybe, but not that I'd noticed. On the contrary, to me it sounds very neutral when everything is set flat. In fact that was one of the things that I most liked about it when I first tried it out. But that leads me to wonder … how does anyone really know what the "natural sound" of their bass actually is? OK, there is the acoustically natural sound of an unplugged bass, but once you have plugged it into an amp - any amp - it is going to be coloured to some extent by the characteristics of the amp and cab(s) you are plugged into - which means it comes down to personal tone preferences - which are often very subjective, and probably only perceptible to us as bass players anyway. And to be honest I think the differences between modern amps are much less significant than the similarities - if you have an Aguilar, or a TC, or a GK, or a Genz, or a Markbass, or (name your own favourite modern gear) then you probably have a really nice sounding set-up, and the only people who are going to tell you that your tone sucks are other bassists who happen to prefer other brands of amp.

So, when you say that people complain that the TC amp robs their bass of its natural tone, I can't help but wonder whether they really mean that it sounds a bit different to the amp that they usually use and are most familiar with - which is in itself no more 'natural' than the TC sound.

Edited July 6, 2014 by GrammeFriday

[discreet]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404643449' post='2494333']
You don't say? Gosh, how deluded I have been to think otherwise all these years!
[/quote]

You said it. Thhp! You like TC - I didn't get on with it. I like GK and Barefaced - you may not get on with it, or maybe you like it, I don't know. YMMV, beauty is in the ear of the beholder, one mans meat, etc. etc.

Edited July 6, 2014 by discreet

[molan]

[quote name='GrammeFriday' timestamp='1404646088' post='2494356']
Interesting post - thanks for your thoughtful reply, Molan.

So, when you say that people complain that the TC amp robs their bass of its natural tone, I can't help but wonder whether they really mean that it sounds a bit different to the amp that they usually use and are most familiar with - which is in itself no more 'natural' than the TC sound.
[/quote]

It does seem to be amongst the most common opinions about the TC heads. Stuff around them being a 'tone-sucker' comes up quite frequently as well (It's how I found my RH450 to sound but I certainly didn't originate the description).

I work part time in a bass guitar shop and we get to hear the opinions of a lot of players and people who've owned TC amps who are surprisingly singular in their outlook. Everyone likes the idea of the form factor and tonal options but then find they don't work for them in a live band environment. For some it's simply the complexity of the controls but for most its just they, and their bands, didn't like the sound.

Even the shop that I first visited, another bass specialist, to buy one said this to me but I went ahead & bought one anyway because I loved the idea of all those controls, lol.

We hear a lot of, often very strong, views about amps and cabs in the shop and people are generally way more opinionated about amplification than they are about instruments.

In terms of amps there are only really two brands that people tend not to like at all - TC and Ashdown. We do have one customer with an RH750 that really likes it and we sometimes get people that like the older style 'warm' (I'd call it muffled!) tone of Ashdown but these are definitely the least popular brands amongst our customers.

There's only one dedicated cab brand that's really unpopular but that's not something to debate in an amp thread.

It can be fascinating sometimes to listen to one customer waxing lyrically about a brand and then hear the next one say how much he dislikes them. Of course there are a few brands that seem to be universally liked as well so it's not all negative stuff