Motown on TV tonight.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1404809037' post='2495814']
In your opinion - still formulaic and trite throwaway pop music as far as I'm concerned - and that goes for ABBA too.
[/quote]

Formulaic, throw-away, both. Neither trite, though.

(Not that keen on ABBA, but still recognise them to be great songs and very well performed).

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404806758' post='2495783']
In the book Standing In The Shadows Of Motown - The Life & Times Of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson by Dr Licks 'I'll Be There' is listed.

You've obviously spent a lot of time on these basslines but wondered if you've played 'Darling Dear' by the Jackson 5. It's in Dr Licks book and is my favourite Motown bassline of all time.

[media]http://youtu.be/076hAabSqN0[/media]

This was on the 3rd Jackson 5 LP released in 1970.
[/quote]

Thanks for this, I haven't, def Jamerson, let loose a little!

I'll be There may have been recorded after they left Detroit (I don't know) hence sounding rather different. I could be swayed either way on that one, happy to accept Dr Licks as knowing more than me!

Edited July 8, 2014 by 4 Strings

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404809423' post='2495818']
I don't think people do forget that Motown was a factory as every book i've read or documentary i've seen mentions the production line methods of Motown as a major part of it's success.
I agree that there was a lot of cash-ins and a lot of filler especially on LPs and also Motown artists recorded numerous versions of the same song time and time again just to fill space on albums.

Here's two Detroit production lines in full flow...........

[media]http://youtu.be/17yfqxoSTFM[/media]
[/quote]

Just fab! Bet you wouldn't be able to do a vid like that nowadays.

[Grangur]

Good thread. I was born in 59. It makes me laugh when folk reminisce about the 60s and then throw in examples of the 70s to illustrate the point.
If you want to hear a large selection of the"Sounds of the Sixties" then tune in to Desmond Carrington on Radio 2 at the weekend. You will get a great overview of the time.
Personally I'd rather join Lozz in playing the Motown collection or similar.

All eras produce some good stuff and a lot of more questionable material. Its the good that carries on and stands the test of time. Time will be the test of if Will I am or Adel were ever any good.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1404809595' post='2495820']
Bob Babbitt on what happened regarding recording credits and payments (who played what).
"War" is an interesting little mess.....lol....

[url="http://bobbabbitt.com/Bob_Babbitts_Site/Whos_Playing_Bass.html"]http://bobbabbitt.co...aying_Bass.html[/url]
[/quote]

Really interesting, thanks. Clears up who played on 'War' at least! Now he's mentioned it, Bob's playing is a little cleaner than Jamerson's and was more disciplined (in that he repeats accurately, whereas Jamerson seems to be able to play something slightly different every repeat!) exemplified here.

I would take whatever Bob said.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404818690' post='2495930']
Good thread. I was born in 59. It makes me laugh when folk reminisce about the 60s and then throw in examples of the 70s to illustrate the point.
[/quote]
The reason for that happening in this thread could be because out of the 20 tracks in the TV programme the thread is about 7 were released in the 70s.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1404817339' post='2495918']
Just fab! Bet you wouldn't be able to do a vid like that nowadays.
[/quote]
Great isn't it.

If you haven't already it's worth checking out session guitarist Dennis Coffey's website. He goes back to the Ric-Tic days and has some great stories of those days at Motown and being a Detroit session musician.

http://denniscoffeysite.com/

[Grangur]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404820893' post='2495974']
The reason for that happening in this thread could be because out of the 20 tracks in the TV programme the thread is about 7 were released in the 70s.
[/quote]Fair point. Not that I've yet actually meant that seen the program. I was meaning it on a more general observation level.

On a more constructive note... Have a look at this, if you've not yet seen it. It's the full movie of the story of The Temptations. It's probably peppered with Holywoodesch untruths and rewrites of reality, but it's good entertainment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxXhm-nonOY

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404821890' post='2495990']
Fair point. Not that I've yet actually meant that seen the program. I was meaning it on a more general observation level.
[/quote]
Yes i know what you mean it is generally the case. Another thing that annoys me is that people (usually who weren't there) say 'In the 60s' as if it was all the same throughout the decade but as we both know there was massive change between 1960 and 1969 the likes of which we haven't seen since.

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404821890' post='2495990']
On a more constructive note... Have a look at this, if you've not yet seen it. It's the full movie of the story of The Temptations. It's probably peppered with Holywoodesch untruths and rewrites of reality, but it's good entertainment.
[/quote]
Yes i watched that some time ago and was slightly apprehensive before but as you said and i totally agree it really is entertaining.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404821129' post='2495976']
Great isn't it.

If you haven't already it's worth checking out session guitarist Dennis Coffey's website. He goes back to the Ric-Tic days and has some great stories of those days at Motown and being a Detroit session musician.

[url="http://denniscoffeysite.com/"]http://denniscoffeysite.com/[/url]
[/quote]

Great, thanks, on it now!

[drTStingray]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404768838' post='2495617']

I still think that ABBA are the height of naff and up there with ELO for kings (and queens) of bland. I always thought of them as an equal to Boney M. The passing years haven't made them sound any better to me. Led Zeppelin to me were grand old farts of rock in the 70s and so out of kilter of what was happening in music. A mantle that Queen admirably took over later. For anyone i knew around the music scene in the mid to late 70s Led Zeppelin were most definitely yesterday's heroes.
[/quote]

I couldn't disagree with you more apart from the view on Led Zeppelin - but they were surely gods of rock music/modified blues rock until Led Zeppelin 5? Boney M were totally dreadful and formulaic Euro Pop - their strings sound really was the bottom of the barrel. But how dare you dis ELO - they were superb and highly regarded at the time - a true crossover act between rock music lovers and pop chart music!!! One of the most exciting live acts I ever saw!

Back on topic - I find it extremely hard to picture Carol Kaye breezing into the Motown studio to do I Can't Help Myself - we are talking 1964 and boiling race relations and US culture of the time. I was once told Lemmy played on some 70s Philly hits and I didn't believe that either!! I suppose it's conceivable she could have been on a demo but if on any at all, surely more likely to have been involved post the Motown move to California - but I still can't think of any famous tracks which have her style of playing.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1404816282' post='2495909']


It was a factory. Just like no-one cares who bolted the doors on a car the actual musicians on the records were largely irrelevant at the time.

The import things were (in order):
1. The Record Label
2. The Songwriters
3. The Singers actually named on the record sleeve/label

[/quote]

I think Motown knew well the value of the whole Motown sound and package - the musicians/ orchestra used were an integral part of that sound and from what I've read the musicians were paid well for their work. Until Jamerson clones appeared they needed to use him (and did - apparently sometimes not in the best of states). The band also went on the road with the stars which posed a problem for keeping the hit factory going.

That is why through the sixties at least the same group of players were on most of the recordings and Jamerson and to a lesser extent Babbitt appear on most recordings. Babbitt's playing was, to my ears, subtly different eg Signed Sealed Delivered (Stevie Wonder) and a later example - Inner City Blues (Marvin Gaye). I love both of their styles and have freely allowed them to influence and pervade my own playing shamelessly!!!

Edited July 9, 2014 by drTStingray

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1404863257' post='2496578']
I couldn't disagree with you more apart from the view on Led Zeppelin - but they were surely gods of rock music/modified blues rock until Led Zeppelin 5? Boney M were totally dreadful and formulaic Euro Pop - their strings sound really was the bottom of the barrel. But how dare you dis ELO - they were superb and highly regarded at the time - a true crossover act between rock music lovers and pop chart music!!! One of the most exciting live acts I ever saw!
[/quote]
I have no idea what Led Zeppelin 5 is as i only go up to Led Zeppelin IV. It's all downhill for me after that. I can't help but think of ELO as middle of the road pop bought by kids and housewives in the 70s. Nothing wrong with a bit of MOR pop but hardly the cutting edge of rock and was certainly not highly regarded by me or anyone i knew. On saying that i wouldn't expect anyone to like what i like (but then again i couldn't care less if they didn't).

[lowdown]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1404863257' post='2496578']
Boney M were totally dreadful and formulaic Euro Pop - their strings sound really was the bottom of the barrel.
[/quote]

That string sound of the time, was not unique to Boney M. It was the typical "Disco Strings" that was used on many tracks both sides of the Atlantic.
Small string sections swamped in ambience and with the use of Flange and Phasers, double tracking etc playing themes and motifs.

The "Munich Disco" sound was not unlike Motown in ways, a factory product.
There was a bunch of session musicians called "Munich Machine" including a few Brits
who played (very well) on a ton of stuff.

A bit of info here about the players and artist they recorded for.
http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/munich_machine

Edited July 9, 2014 by lowdown

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1404863257' post='2496578']
Back on topic - I find it extremely hard to picture Carol Kaye breezing into the Motown studio to do I Can't Help Myself - we are talking 1964 and boiling race relations and US culture of the time.
[/quote]
If you find it hard to picture then may i suggest that you read a little on the history of Motown and what was happening in Detroit at that time. Many white musicians, arrangers, writers and performers were at Motown in the 60s. There are a couple of good books and a DVD that give a good idea of what was happening in Detroit both musically and politically in the 60s. By 1967 and the time of the riots there were singers like Chris Clark, singer, producer and writer R Dean Taylor, session players Bob Babbitt and Dennis Coffey and the songwriting team Lori Burton and Pamela Sawyer (from Romford, Essex) just to name a few at Motown. Also the Detroit Symphony Orchestra played on numerous recordings and even released two LPs under the name of the Same Remo Golden Strings with the Funk Brothers.

http://youtu.be/g7fCiGjm9Ec

Edited July 9, 2014 by BetaFunk

[chris_b]

Any band that can generate a string of hits or successful records which are still played regularly nearly 50 years later isn't crap, bad or ([i]enter own pejorative term here[/i]).

You may not like them but that's a completely different thing.

With distance Motown now looks much better than the disposable pop that it was generally regarded to be at the time. Almost all of the musicians I have met who were into black music in the 60's bought Stax, Atlantic and Chess.

Berry Gordy only wanted sales and it's a wonderful accident of circumstance that inspite of this his company was putting out a quality of production, writing and playing that has hardly been matched since. On the other hand the Funk Brothers had a very poor view of the quality of some of the stuff they were required to record.

Carol Kaye didn't record in Detroit. Motown spend years recording in both LA and Detroit before they finally relocated to LA. Read Standing In The Shadows Of Motown.

[Sonic_Groove]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404899212' post='2496740']
If you find it hard to picture then may i suggest that you read a little on the history of Motown and what was happening in Detroit at that time. Many white musicians, arrangers, writers and performers were at Motown in the 60s. There are a couple of good books and a DVD that give a good idea of what was happening in Detroit both musically and politically in the 60s. By 1967 and the time of the riots there were singers like Chris Clark, singer, producer and writer R Dean Taylor, session players Bob Babbitt and Dennis Coffey and the songwriting team Lori Burton and Pamela Sawyer (from Romford, Essex) just to name a few at Motown. Also the Detroit Symphony Orchestra played on numerous recordings and even released two LPs under the name of the Same Remo Golden Strings with the Funk Brothers.

[media]http://youtu.be/g7fCiGjm9Ec[/media]
[/quote]

As always Music & Musicians show Multi-Culturalism & Love for fellow mankind!

But Carol Kaye admits She has never been to Detroit!!!

B

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Sonic_Groove' timestamp='1404900133' post='2496750']
As always Music & Musicians show Multi-Culturalism & Love for fellow mankind!

But Carol Kaye admits She has never been to Detroit!!!

B
[/quote]
Yes but as i'm sure you know she could have and no one would have raised even one eyebrow even in 1964.

Edited July 9, 2014 by BetaFunk

[drTStingray]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404899212' post='2496740']

If you find it hard to picture then may i suggest that you read a little on the history of Motown and what was happening in Detroit at that time. Many white musicians, arrangers, writers and performers were at Motown in the 60s. There are a couple of good books and a DVD that give a good idea of what was happening in Detroit both musically and politically in the 60s. By 1967 and the time of the riots there were singers like Chris Clark, singer, producer and writer R Dean Taylor, session players Bob Babbitt and Dennis Coffey and the songwriting team Lori Burton and Pamela Sawyer (from Romford, Essex) just to name a few at Motown. Also the Detroit Symphony Orchestra played on numerous recordings and even released two LPs under the name of the Same Remo Golden Strings with the Funk Brothers.

http://youtu.be/g7fCiGjm9Ec
[/quote]

Well I've read Standing in the Shadows of Motown and learned about 40 of the songs and picked up lots of info on previous documentaries and articles.

I still find the Carol Kaye input inconceivable back as early as 1964 but if someone has further info then fine.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1404896796' post='2496703']

I have no idea what Led Zeppelin 5 is as i only go up to Led Zeppelin IV. It's all downhill for me after that. I can't help but think of ELO as middle of the road pop bought by kids and housewives in the 70s. Nothing wrong with a bit of MOR pop but hardly the cutting edge of rock and was certainly not highly regarded by me or anyone i knew. On saying that i wouldn't expect anyone to like what i like (but then again i couldn't care less if they didn't).
[/quote]

I also go as far as Led Zep 4. The first and second ELO albums are about as far from MOR pop as is possible - I was a fan back then largely because of exposure to them through friends (all of whom could be described in hindsight as prog fans - that term wasn't invented back then) - as a group of mates we were all into Camel, Greenslade, Egg, Hatfield and the North, Yes etc etc and ELO were very much part of that era's rock music - saw them live in about 1971 or 2 and they were great - even doing a phenomenal version of Roll Over Beethoven. They became more of a crossover band later in the 70s with strings of chart hits like Mr Blue Sky. But to call them MOR is like calling Level 42 MOR on the basis they had chart hits of a more pop-py nature than their albums!!.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1404921784' post='2497028']
I also go as far as Led Zep 4. The first and second ELO albums are about as far from MOR pop as is possible - I was a fan back then largely because of exposure to them through friends (all of whom could be described in hindsight as prog fans - that term wasn't invented back then) - as a group of mates we were all into Camel, Greenslade, Egg, Hatfield and the North, Yes etc etc and ELO were very much part of that era's rock music - saw them live in about 1971 or 2 and they were great - even doing a phenomenal version of Roll Over Beethoven. They became more of a crossover band later in the 70s with strings of chart hits like Mr Blue Sky. But to call them MOR is like calling Level 42 MOR on the basis they had chart hits of a more pop-py nature than their albums!!.
[/quote]
Level 42 are MOR aren't they?

Edited July 9, 2014 by BetaFunk

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1404920790' post='2497019']
I still find the Carol Kaye input inconceivable back as early as 1964 but if someone has further info then fine.
[/quote]
You may well be correct and have no reason to doubt that but that's not was replying to.

Your quote which i was replying to is in post #65.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1404899691' post='2496742']
Berry Gordy only wanted sales and it's a wonderful accident of circumstance that inspite of this his company was putting out a quality of production, writing and playing that has hardly been matched since. On the other hand the Funk Brothers had a very poor view of the quality of some of the stuff they were required to record.
[/quote]

Totally agree with your post, except this bit, Berry was right on top of quality, part of their weekly meetings. The Stax guys thought of Motown as being the polished end of the scale. And it was. Stax musicians were largely blues based, Motown jazz based. I love both equally.