Simple bass set up yet I can never get it right!

[Grangur]

[quote name='linear' timestamp='1406588667' post='2512892']
Does having a shim in the neck affect how low you can get the strings (assuming the saddles aren't bottomed out)? It seems to me it should make no difference, but ever since I shimmed the neck on mine I just can't seem to get the strings low enough without getting buzzing while playing at the upper frets
[/quote]

Adding a shim in the bottom of the pocket will have the effect of tipping the headstock back. This will have the effect of lowering the action at the highest frets.

It sounds to me like you might have a shim in there that you don't need. Most well made instruments shouldn't need a shim if the angle of the pocket and neck base are made correctly. IMHO

[HowieBass]

@linear - Yeah having a shim when it's not needed is pointless and as Grangur said could be the reason for the fret buzz you're seeing. However the reason for your fret buzz could also be too much relief in the neck. You're right in thinking a shim does affect the action and a full neck pocket shim to raise the whole neck is one solution when the saddles bottom out and you still have an unacceptably high action (which is where I was with my Curbow 5 bass). Partial neck pocket shims act to tilt the neck backwards (with the shim at the back of the neck pocket, nearer the bridge) or forwards (with the shim at the front edge of the neck pocket) if the neck and body have alignment issues - some basses have a micro-tilt adjustment as part of the neck to body attachment arrangement.

[PlungerModerno]

Another reason to use a small spacer or tapered full shim is to keep the saddle height screws protruding too much on a bass that's close to the deck. Same goes for tilt adjuster systems.

As far as relief - it needs to be proportionate to string height. Low action works with a straight neck up to about 0.5 mm (depending on how you like your fret noise). Higher action can work with as much relief as you want - but anything over 2 mm seems warped to me. I can deal with medium action but a lot of relief makes the upper registers unplayable unless the strings are flying high. Hence people who are afraid of a truss rod tweak tend to adjust the saddles up and up and up! (It also may help with slight back bow).

The heat got to my Jazz neck too. After a little turn it's now got a good bit less than a 0.5mm picks worth of relief and it's playing as I like it.

As far as setups go you can't go wrong with relief --> saddle height --> intonation. If somethings wrong it may take a few loops, checking things like nut action, pickup height, neck angle, etc.

At least in my personal experience that is.

Like Qlank mentioned, it's the nature of wood to be a bit funny with the weather.

[linear]

From a geometry perspective I just can't see how removing the shim will do anything I couldn't achieve by adjusting the saddle height, [i]but[/i] I'm willing to give it a try - it's hardly an honerous task.

I added the shim because the saddles were bottoming out after I fitted a bridge with a thicker baseplate, but that was when I was going for a very low action and was happy to accept a bit of fret clatter. Now I'm trying to get it 100% buzz-free, so I should have enough adjustment in the saddles without the shim.

I straightened the neck until it started buzzing on the low frets, then backed off a bit. Lowered each string until I was getting buzz on the high frets, backed off a bit. Repeated the process a couple of times. So now it doesn't buzz from hitting the frets, but the action is sufficently high that I struggle to play it without getting buzz from the fretted note itself, especially when I lift off :*(

[HowieBass]

If, that's IF, the shim is a full pocket shim it raises the whole neck and your comment about the saddles holds true. Partial shims that do not occupy the whole neck pocket can change the neck to body geometry and tilt the neck backwards or forwards or even correct a misaligned neck to make it align with the body correctly. In my experience it's better to set the relief first without referring to whether you get fret buzz or not (so use a method like checking the gap at the 8th fret with a business card which is usually .012" thick - that's the gap to aim for when you have a capo on the E string at the 1st fret and you're holding down the string at the last fret) and then adjust the saddles to get the action; if the relief is correct then fret buzz should occur over most of the neck if you take the saddles too low. I wouldn't use the existence of fret buzz in certain areas to get the relief right though it can diagnose if you have too much relief (buzz near the top frets) or too little relief (buzz near the nut), assuming of course that the frets are all levelled correctly.

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='linear' timestamp='1406668439' post='2513649']
From a geometry perspective I just can't see how removing the shim will do anything I couldn't achieve by adjusting the saddle height, [i]but[/i] I'm willing to give it a try - it's hardly an honerous task.
[/quote]

I'd say you are correct. As long as you have room to adjust the saddle height it should be fine.

[quote name='linear' timestamp='1406668439' post='2513649']
I added the shim because the saddles were bottoming out after I fitted a bridge with a thicker baseplate, but that was when I was going for a very low action and was happy to accept a bit of fret clatter. Now I'm trying to get it 100% buzz-free, so I should have enough adjustment in the saddles without the shim.
[/quote]

Cool. A slimmer shim made of a paper thin veneer could be a intermediate option. In any case it'll work as long as it doesn't affect the neck joint strength. 1 or 2 mm less thread in the neck shouldn't affect the strength or stability of a well made bolt on neck joint.

[quote name='linear' timestamp='1406668439' post='2513649']
I straightened the neck until it started buzzing on the low frets, then backed off a bit. Lowered each string until I was getting buzz on the high frets, backed off a bit. Repeated the process a couple of times. So now it doesn't buzz from hitting the frets, but the action is sufficently high that I struggle to play it without getting buzz from the fretted note itself, especially when I lift off :*(
[/quote]

Could be a high fret (or two), might be a great compromise between playability and the string noise you want can't be had. Are you using round wound strings? I've always found they buzz unless they're played lightly, or are incredibly dead - and always a little when making and breaking contact with the frets.
I'm sorry but I'm struggling to understand your method of setting relief: Even a shoe lace tied tight around the first fret can do the job of a capo (at least on the outside strings - from before I had a capo!). From there you can press down on the last fret and check there is a space between the 8th fret and the string - if you have no feeler gauges you can use coins, picks or sheet material of known thicknesses to estimate and rough in the gap. It's worked for me so far.

Edit: HowieBass has beat me to it with the business card.

Edited July 30, 2014 by PlungerModerno

[linear]

I went back and set the relief properly with a business card - I had to increase the relief a little to get the card under there without the string lifting. It has made such a difference. I didn't realise how much of a difference very small tweaks of the truss rod could make. I wouldn't say I've managed to get the action super-low, but it's about 4mm above the 12th fret now, whch is much better than it was before.

I think it's possible that I have a high 13th fret. It seems to affect the D string more than the others. I actually brought the G string back up a bit, even though it wasn't buzzing, because it was so much closer to the fretboard than the D that it felt weird.

I am using roundwounds, and yes there is still a little buzz when I lift off. but it's nowhere near as bad as before.

I'm going to leave it for a day or two and then go back and take another look. Thanks so much for the help guys. I can play my bass again

[MoonBassAlpha]

You can use a credit card as a fret rocker on that D string 13 fret and see if it is high relative to the frets either side.
You could also use it to pay a luthier to look at it for you...

[PlungerModerno]

Good to hear you're getting results!

[HowieBass]

[quote name='linear' timestamp='1406855278' post='2515417']
I wouldn't say I've managed to get the action super-low, but it's about 4mm above the 12th fret now, whch is much better than it was before.

[/quote]

The action on most of my basses is closer to 2mm at the 12th fret and I don't get note choking or much fret buzz at all. With every one of my basses they've always come with too much rather than too little relief; it's surprising how flat you can get a neck before fret buzz becomes an issue and then it'll only become apparent near the nut if you've gone too far (too little relief).

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1406904350' post='2515805']
The action on most of my basses is closer to 2mm at the 12th fret and I don't get note choking or much fret buzz at all. With every one of my basses they've always come with too much rather than too little relief; it's surprising how flat you can get a neck before fret buzz becomes an issue and then it'll only become apparent near the nut if you've gone too far (too little relief).
[/quote]

Aye, 2mm is plenty of room for standard tuning and medium or light playing style. With a Low B or detuned strings a little clank or buzz is possible without digging in too hard IME. You can get high tension strings (eg. 135 Low B or 110 E (or thicker) with typical construction) and they tend to need less room to do their thing. That could be just that my left hand had a harder time moving that extra mass under increased tension! (vs. same tuning with regular or light strings).
With a light hand you could have a flat neck and play with little to no noise as long as the frets were 100% flat. I need a hint of relief however.

I'll add that for slap or tap and some other styles (eg. entwhistle or harris type playing) a `to the deck` setup can make it a lot easier. Maybe someone else finds it different.

Edited August 2, 2014 by PlungerModerno