Simple bass set up yet I can never get it right!

[Mornats]

I get so frustrated with setting up basses! I've read up loads about them, have watched numerous videos and have been on a course with Crimson Guitars too but I still get it wrong.

I'm trying to set up my Yamaha TRBX as it's got a little fret buzz from the 9th fret upwards (up being towards the bridge). String gauge is the same as it comes with - 45-105 so nothing changed there. It was all fine for a while but I reckon the summer heat's gotten to it.

So I dug out my notes from the Crimson Guitars course. Set the E string at 2.5mm at the last fret (fret 24 on this bass), set the G string at 1.5mm and set the A and D in between those. So this lowered the action a bit which isn't going to help, I know, but I wanted to follow the advice all the way through.

I tuned up, to make sure the strings were at the right tension, put a capo on fret 1, held down the last fret on the E string and slid a credit card under the string at the 12th fret. I was told that it should only just touch if the setup is right. The string was much too low so I turned the truss rod anti-clockwise to loosen it so that the neck curves away from the strings. There's still a little buzz now but turning the truss rod helped (just over half a turn it was).

The problem is that the action seems hugely high now. Without anything fretted the E string sits 3.8 to 4mm above the fret. This seems much higher than it's ever been for this bass. In contrast, my SGC Nanyo Bass Collection SB320 has no buzz anywhere and the E string sits 2mm above the 12th fret (everything unfretted). I know the Yammy can have a good set up, it used to have one but now that I've tweaked it it's all messed up.

I have too many basses to keep taking them to a luthier for a set up so wouldn't mind any advice on where I'm going wrong!

[HowieBass]

The clearance is a business card thickness NOT a credit card which is much too thick. A standard thickness business card is about 0.012" (12 point paper weight) which is much thinner than a plastic credit card. Fret buzz up at the higher frets indicates too much relief which is what you've induced by loosening the truss rod too much. I tend to set the action at the 17th fret and I go for about 5/64" on the E and 4/64" on the G.

[Chiliwailer]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1404764313' post='2495557']
Fret buzz up at the higher frets indicates too much relief which is what you've induced by loosening the truss rod too much. I tend to set the action at the 17th fret and I go for about 5/64" on the E and 4/64" on the G.
[/quote]

+1

Summer heat will often loosen your rod (in guitar speak, that is...... )

[Mornats]

[quote name='Chiliwailer' timestamp='1404764763' post='2495561']
Summer heat will often loosen your rod (in guitar speak, that is...... )
[/quote]

Badum-ish!

Cheers guys, I'll give it another whirl with some sensible adjustments

[Horizontalste]

Try setting the relief first then the string height. If it's set up to how you like it then the seasonal change happens you should only have to tweak the truss rod and not the string height.
For me (Bb1024 & Stingray) it's fretted at the first and at the body joint then 0.012 at frets 7,8 & 9.

[Mornats]

Bah, I'm still frustrated. I can't get it right at all.

I've compared the Yammy to my SB320 and used the SB320 as a benchmark. E and G strings are 2.5mm from the 24th fret on that one. Fretted at 1 and 24 the 12th fret is around 0.3mm. Neck has a slight bow around frets 1-4. It plays perfectly and is one of the best setup bases I've played (seriously, there's a Nanyo for sale on here, buy and it and see!) So action is low enough to play well but is't stupidly low.

I've tried setting the truss rod on the Yammy so that it's around the same height on the 12th when fretted at 1 and 24 as the Nanyo. It seems to be a common/popular height. I then raised the strings up until they stopped buzzing. Except they didn't stop buzzing. I got to 4mm at the 24th fret on the E string where it had the least buzz but then the string's too high.I tried loosening the truss rod a bit to help but now I just don't know which bit of it's causing the problem. I'm don't think it's the fretwork, it was pretty darn good on this bass and I had no problems before.

It's a shame the course I went on with Crimson Guitars ran out of time after doing the fret dressing that we skipped over this bit somewhat. Not their fault of course, this was the first time they ran the course and what I learnt about fret dressing was brilliant.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Mornats

[HowieBass]

I'm surprised you've had to go that high to eliminate fret buzz, it ought to become acceptable around 2.5mm. The general rule of thumb is that fret buzz only up near the nut means too little relief; fret buzz at the higher frets means too much relief; fret buzz all along the neck means the action is too low. I tend to set my neck relief by eye these days by holding the E down at the 1st and 12th frets and checking for a slight gap between string and fret from the 4th through to the 8th frets and by holding the G down at the 1st and 8th frets and checking for the slightest gap between string and fret at the 4th. Is the nut cut correctly? You can check by holding a string at the 3rd fret and checking for a slight gap between string and fret at the 1st fret, no gap means the slot's too low, wider gaps means you'll have slight intonation problems in the lower registers and it'll be a bit harder to fret there. If you can't get the instrument playable with no buzz and an acceptable low action then you might have a problem with uneven frets.

[Mornats]

Yep, just checked the nut height using your technique and there's a slight gap, just the same as on my SB320. I think I'll leave the neck for a day now, I don't want to tweak it too much.

[HowieBass]

Might be worth a shout out to other BCers in your area and see if anyone can have a look at the bass and pass comment and/or assist with the set-up?

[Grangur]

If you get fret-buzz on the higher section of the neck and cannot get rid of it without having seriously high action, then this would sound to me like the angle of the neck in the pocket may be wrong. This problem would sound to me like the angle of the neck as it sits in the pocket is pulling the headstock back and pushing the top of the neck up (to make it too close to the strings).

Clearly tweaking the truss-rod isn't working unless you make the action stupidly high. So this would sound to me like there's a shim in the bottom of the pocket when it's not needed. Do you have a shim in the pocket?
If you do, take it out, screw the neck tight back into place and try again. I'm planning to come down to Swindon sometime next week. If I can make some plans through work to get to Bristol, I'd be happy to take a look.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Grangur

[hamfist]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404855013' post='2496475']
If you get fret-buzz on the higher section of the neck and cannot get rid of it without having seriously high action, then this would sound to me like the angle of the neck in the pocket may be wrong. This problem would sound to me like the angle of the neck as it sits in the pocket is pulling the headstock back and pushing the top of the neck up (to make it too close to the strings).

Clearly tweaking the truss-rod isn't working unless you make the action stupidly high. So this would sound to me like there's a shim in the bottom of the pocket when it's not needed. Do you have a shim in the pocket?
If you do, take it out, screw the neck tight back into place and try again.
[/quote]

Going to have to disagree here. So long as the bridge can adjust high or low enough to accommodate it, the angle of the neck in the heel slot will make no difference whatsoever to the action, neck relief or truss rod adjustment needed. It's straightforward physics. If you remove a neck shim from the rear of the heel slot it has exactly the same effect as lowering the bridge by "x" amount to compensate. The entire neck geometry will stay the same. The only change would be that the string height to the body will reduce a bit. Also the pickups would also have to be lowered a bit to maintain the same distance from the strings.

[Grangur]

Hamfist; I thought he had the bridge down to the bottom. I've probably jumped to that conclusion as to me that would be the first, no brain, adjustment to fix high action.

I think I'll just try to stop helping folk and just shut up.

[Twincam]

Ok sounds like what I did just last night started messing around and soon enough had a 4mm action and still fret buzz I swear the bass was nearly throw out the window.

So I taken I break. Then come back taken all the strings off. Set the saddles really low. Then I tightened the truss rod up a little. Put the stings back on the strings were flat against the board. So I raised the saddles up a little till they would just clear the board from the 12th to the 19th fret then loosened the truss rod at the point I had a 1.5mm action at the 12th (string)and had a equal buzz. So I raised the saddles half a mm. And had no buzz in the higher frets. Then I loosened the truss tod a very small amount till I had no buzzing at the 2nd to 7th frets. Ended up with 2.5 mm e string to just under 2mm at the g and the others inbetween. However I noticed I used more relief this way than have used before which for diy purpose is if I slid my Natwest bank card under the string at the 7th with first and last fret depressed it will just about start to raise the string.

I was probable using too little relief before and having to set the saddles higher. If I had a lighter touch I could probably get another half mm out if it and this I on a cheap Harley Benton. I did have to cut thenut height myself. Oh a Natwest bank card is half a mm which I think would be right for what specs fender gives for relief.

[HowieBass]

A plastic credit card is a bit too thick really, it's supposed to be a business card - that's usually 12 point card stock or 0.012" thick = 0.3mm roughly. I also happen to agree with Grangur that a partial neck shim could cause problems with getting the bass set up properly, the neck might well be misaligned and tilt backwards (or indeed forwards since it depends where a partial shim is) - only a full neck pocket shim will raise the neck such that the geometry stays the same as a neck with no shim. It's certainly worth looking at if all else has failed.

Edited July 9, 2014 by HowieBass

[Mornats]

Thanks for all the advice guys, it's helping just knowing you have my back It's so frustrating though. I can't even tell if I'm getting the neck relief wrong or the saddle height wrong.

I took the neck off to check for a shim and there was none. I was mightily impressed by the 100% perfect fit of the neck to the joint. Overwater take note - ditch Tanglewood and get your aspiration basses made in Indonesia by Yamaha. I digress. I bought this bass off Hamfist so he knows it well and can attest to the fact that it had a good setup so I know if can be done. The weak link is me, I need to research the relationship between saddle height and relief. I'm blindly turning stuff now which can't help.

Twincams, I tried your method of starting from scratch as it were and I got a little less buzz but it's not buzz free like it used to be. I think I'm tweaking the truss rod too much so I'm down to 1/16th of a turn or less now. I was doing 1/4 to an 1/8th earlier.

Grangur - that's a very nice offer mate. Don't come over here just for me though. I'm sure I can get some help. I'm taking an acoustic guitar to Eltham Jones this week so I'll ask for his advice. I know he likes the singer in my band so maybe he'll do me a good price.

[HowieBass]

Once you approach the best setup that suits your playing style then it's a case of making small adjustments as you zero in on the appropriate combination of relief and saddle height. Let things settle a day before you go back to the instrument as necks can take time to adjust. Hope you get it sorted soon!

[Andyjr1515]

Hi, Mornats

It's worth one more go with the relief. For checking the relief, you really need to get two bits out of the equation:[list]
[*]The nut
[*]The bit of neck that is fastened flat to the pocket
[/list]
Humour me and do the following:[list]
[*]put a capo on the 1st fret (or get a friend to hold it down...mmm...could have phrased that better...).
[*]Hold the bottom E or the top G down at the 17th fret
[*]There should be JUST PERCEPTIBLE movement if you tap / press the string down at the 8th fret.
[*]Adjust the truss rod until you get to that point. Let it settle overnight and check it again and, if necessary, tweak it again.
[/list]
The neck relief can make a significant impact to the action height when you are dealing with such a long neck as a bass which is probably why it went so askew when the weather changed.

Let us know how you get on. If the neck relief is correct with the above method and you still cannot get the correct action height, then there is another factor involved.

Andy

[BassBod]

At the risk of getting told off...my own experiences are that many necks do not respond evenly to truss rod changes, particularly in the last few tweaks before "almost straight". A few basses I've had will get so close, then start choking at the last five or six frets at the top. I usually view this as the limit of their adjustment, without any further "spot" fret levelling. Its a balancing act between the available adjustments.

I'm around Bristol and happy to have a look if it helps, but I'm not set up for fret levelling.

[Grangur]

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1405005010' post='2497829']
At the risk of getting told off...my own experiences are that many necks do not respond evenly to truss rod changes, particularly in the last few tweaks before "almost straight". A few basses I've had will get so close, then start choking at the last five or six frets at the top. I usually view this as the limit of their adjustment, without any further "spot" fret levelling. Its a balancing act between the available adjustments.

I'm around Bristol and happy to have a look if it helps, but I'm not set up for fret levelling.
[/quote]
This bass is one Hamfist used to own. So I doubt it needs fret-leveling.

[Qlank]

I've had a torrid time with my wood-necked basses recently. Took me a while to work out it was the suddenness of the hot dry weather. Same as the OP: they just would not stay in tune long enough to play a a song. Started to play about with the set ups on them, gave up after nothing would work.
Got my Steinberger out-composite neck, no wood- no problem.
As for string height, I don't bother with any measuring with anything. I just get the string height to where I want it and then make sure the strings are not buzzing to much. Note that I do like a little fretbuzz so a little may be too much for some.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Qlank

[hamfist]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404855013' post='2496475']
If you get fret-buzz on the higher section of the neck and cannot get rid of it without having seriously high action, then this would sound to me like the angle of the neck in the pocket may be wrong. This problem would sound to me like the angle of the neck as it sits in the pocket is pulling the headstock back and pushing the top of the neck up (to make it too close to the strings).

Clearly tweaking the truss-rod isn't working unless you make the action stupidly high. So this would sound to me like there's a shim in the bottom of the pocket when it's not needed. Do you have a shim in the pocket?
If you do, take it out, screw the neck tight back into place and try again.
[/quote]

Having re-read your post, I understand what you are saying and you are spot on. Don't quite know what I thought you were saying previously. SOrry for being an ar$e.
I knew that there wasn't a shim in the heel slot (having sold the bass to Mornats) but it was worth suggesting to check for one.

Lots of good points suggested by many.
I have also found that on some necks, truss rod adjustments can be unpredictable once you get close to "ideal action". SOmetimes the neck is simply not built to a standard to have an even, very, very minimal curve (which is what I would describe as the ideal) whatever the truss rod adjustment. SOmetimes you just have to compromise with the best that you can get.

I have to say that my method for truss rod adjustment is to get it roughly OK by eye and then tweak. If I get more fret buzz near the nut (first 5 frets say), then there is too much straightness (or even backbow), therefore loosen the truss rod. If there is more fret buzz nearer the bridge (frets 10+) then the neck is too concave .... tighten the truss rod (and will also need to raise the bridge saddles a bit).
If there is no buzz, then the bridge saddles are too high. If there is even, buzz all along the neck, the bridge saddles are too low.
That's about it. Works for me.

Edited July 12, 2014 by hamfist

[Ghost_Bass]

It's a Yammy, it doesn't need a shim!

Some basses are harder to setup than others due to a lot of factors (build quality and factory setup are the most common). The trick is to get the neck relief on that sweet spot. I usually set my necks straight, no relief but i had some basses on my table that needed a bit of relief so that they wouldn't buzz with the action as low as required. On really bad basses a good setup could be impossible without a proper fret dressing.

[Mornats]

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1405179812' post='2499465']
I have also found that on some necks, truss rod adjustments can be unpredictable once you get close to "ideal action".
[/quote]

I owe you guys an update! I think it was this. A lot of small tweaks over a couple of days and it's settled down fine now and plays really well. I've got basses with lower action but I had to dress the frets on one (Overwater Classic) to do that and the other is a Nanyo so a good action is to be expected

Thanks again everyone

[HowieBass]

Yeaaayyyy!

[linear]

Does having a shim in the neck affect how low you can get the strings (assuming the saddles aren't bottomed out)? It seems to me it should make no difference, but ever since I shimmed the neck on mine I just can't seem to get the strings low enough without getting buzzing while playing at the upper frets