The sound of low B - advice

[discreet]

[quote name='The Badderer' timestamp='1405009732' post='2497915']
...get hold of a 15" or 18" cab for extra depth to the sound of the low notes on the B string... ...adding a 1X15 or 1X18 to this will improve your bottom end massively due to the size of the speaker working better at lower frequencies...
[/quote]

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm"]http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/speaker-size-frequency-response.htm[/url]

Speaker diameter has no bearing on tone or frequency response.

[stingrayPete1977]

Told ya, worms everywhere.....

[discreet]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1405016965' post='2497999']
Told ya, worms everywhere.....
[/quote]

Who are you calling a worm?

[GrammeFriday]

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1405015584' post='2497982']
My advice would be go to a specialist bass shop and try some high end basses to know what a good one can sound like then try and find one as near to that sound as you can afford
[/quote]
+1. Excellent advice.

[The Badderer]

crikey that is a can of worms!! it goes against most things I'd read about speaker diameters and low freq response, but barefaced make amazing cabs, I will try to get my head around that!! My understanding had been that the larger the speaker diameter the better and more rounded bass freq would be, below say a Low D. What the have written makes sense, but it's difficult to imagine 6" drivers outputting low B's anywhere near as well as a "15. Or is it saying that you would need 6x6" drivers to do what 1x15"/18" driver would do to the sound of a low B?

For me on a personal level i've always noticed how adding my 1X15 to my 4X10 makes a big difference to the sound, but i will now have to go back with open ears and see if it was more of a placebo effect

[stingrayPete1977]

As soon as you mix speaker types and sizes you can be hearing all sorts, the single larger speaker might be doing all the work and giving a great sound while the smaller one is quietly being ruined, adding an extra identical cab would probably give you a similar result to what you hear when adding the 15" possibly better. Also a crap 4x10 will always be crap where a top end 2x10 would handle the low B better for example.

[The Badderer]

this section i found interesting

[b] But I'm sure I've read that dispersion is critical?[/b]
[color=#333333][size=3]
And you'd be absolute correct! A single 10" does have better dispersion than a single 12" which has better dispersion than a single 15". But what about two 10"s or two 12"s? If you stack them in a vertical line then they maintain the dispersion advantage but place them side by side and they act like a ~21" or ~25" wide speaker which means the 15" outperforms them by a significant margin. So the ever popular 2x2 arrangement of a 4x10" means it has worse dispersion than a 21" woofer.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3]
It's due to this dispersion issue that midrange drivers and tweeters are smaller than woofers, and also because they don't need to move large quantities of air because they don't deal with lows then there is no benefit from making them big.[/size][/color]

[Old_Ben]

Best 5er I've tried was the Ibanez sr1205. Plays and sounds amazing. Just need the £££'s!

[razze06]

I've tried that ibanez in the shop, but couldn't afford the price tag. I've always loved the 4 string version, and that seemed like the low string was just an extension of the other, not a different beast.

I will go to the shop on saturday with an open mind

[BigRedX]

[quote name='The Badderer' timestamp='1405070966' post='2498482']
this section i found interesting

[b] But I'm sure I've read that dispersion is critical?[/b]

[color=#333333][size=3]And you'd be absolute correct! A single 10" does have better dispersion than a single 12" which has better dispersion than a single 15". But what about two 10"s or two 12"s? If you stack them in a vertical line then they maintain the dispersion advantage but place them side by side and they act like a ~21" or ~25" wide speaker which means the 15" outperforms them by a significant margin. So the ever popular 2x2 arrangement of a 4x10" means it has worse dispersion than a 21" woofer.[/size][/color]
[color=#333333][size=3]It's due to this dispersion issue that midrange drivers and tweeters are smaller than woofers, and also because they don't need to move large quantities of air because they don't deal with lows then there is no benefit from making them big.[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Mixing speaker sizes only works if you are actually running a crossover so that each speaker size is dealing with a specific set of frequencies.

Simply adding another cab with bigger speakers and running both cabs at full range is what causes problems.

[The Badderer]

I am learning many things

[razze06]

Update: I have returned the BB615, tried several other 5 strings, and realised once again that it's not for me. Some of the basses i tried sounded lovely, without the issue I was having with the Yamaha, but I realised that I don't really like the sound of those very low notes

Effectively, to be able to use a 5er I would have to re-train myself out of my current right hand technique, and re-learn it with one more string and narrower spacing. Perhaps I would have to change some of my gigging rig, as it may not be able to reproduce the low notes as well as it should. All this for a sound I don't really like hearing very much

So back to 4 strings.

(If I had to pick one in that price range, SUB musicman would be the one)

[JTUK]

Any decent cab will reproduce a low B, IMO... the problem is the sound of the B itself, not the low register.
Make sure the bass sounds balanced across the strings and there is where you need to put the most time and effort
in making sure the bass you use can do this.
Low B is critical... and you really really really don't want a fat undefined boom of a sound. This applies to the other strings as well, but
you simply will not get away with it with a low B... it will dominate and curse your sound and band.
I wouldn't use a single 12 or 210 at volume tho... but any 410 or 212 will be able to do it...IF you give it a chance with the bass.

[razze06]

Fair enough, I agree with you. I realize that I'm not that interested in the low B after all, so I'm not really prepared to go to the troubles of revising my gear and my technique on the off chance that I might use a low note in one of our covers...

[bassmayhem]

Since the low B has a frequency of 30.87 Hz and a wavelength of 11 meters (33.5 ft) an electric bass is nothing but a poor excuse to produce such low notes. What we hear is in fact mostly overtones. The shorter and fatter the string, the lesser overtones and a dull tonal quality appears. I'll be bold and state: B-strings require at least 35" scale to sound decent. The best sounding B-string I've ever heard is on my US Lakland. The tone of the E on the B string differs just slightly from the open E string.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='bassmayhem' timestamp='1407756330' post='2523578']
I'll be bold and state: B-strings require at least 35" scale to sound decent.
[/quote]

Not at all true IME. Good construction and the right choice of string to match the bass a far more critical than an extra inch of string length. Any luthier capable of making a good sounding 5-string with a 35" scale length will be able to make one just as good with a 34" scale. None of the 35" scale basses that I've owned have had a low B that could compete with my 34" Gus, Warwick or Sei basses.

[bassmayhem]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1407762213' post='2523672']
Not at all true IME. Good construction and the right choice of string to match the bass a far more critical than an extra inch of string length. Any luthier capable of making a good sounding 5-string with a 35" scale length will be able to make one just as good with a 34" scale. None of the 35" scale basses that I've owned have had a low B that could compete with my 34" Gus, Warwick or Sei basses.
[/quote]
That's the thing. Most bass players don't play luthier's basses, but factory basses. Still I believe your Gus, Warwick and Sei would have had even better B-strings with 35" scale. But that's me. These basses are not comparable with the ordinary Fender, Music Man or Ibanez kind of basses. All 34" scale five strings I've tried had anemic B-strings compared to my Lakland. I also have a Yamaha JP2 that is thunderous, but not close to the Lakie coming to clarity and definition. My 34" five string basses I had through the years were more of a bad excuse to put yet another string on. I'd love to see pic's of your Gus and Sei basses, BigRedX...

[BigRedX]

Based on my experience I'll have to disagree. The Gus and Sei basses may be expensive luthier-built instruments, but the Warwick is a MiK Pro Series and still easily out-performs any 35" scale bass that I've played. IME the biggest obstacle to getting a decent low B on a 34" bass is having a bolt-on neck. The only BO 5-string bass with a 34" scale I've played that has been any good is my Yamaha BJ5B which is essentially a limited edition (only 50 made) TRB II with an SBV shaped body and headstock so hardly a standard bass.

Gus basses are in [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/66328-bigredxs-weird-wonderful-basses"]this thread[/url] and the Sei can be seen [url=http://basschat.co.uk/topic/136517-fretless-porn/page__view__findpost__p__1235459]here[/url].

Edited August 11, 2014 by BigRedX

[Beer of the Bass]

I've recently built new neck for my 34" bolt-on five string. The new neck uses the same woods as the old neck, but has carbon-fibre rods under the fingerboard, a slightly deeper profile and a double-action truss rod. When setting up the bass I have the distinct impression that the new neck is a fair bit stiffer, as the truss rod requires relatively little tightening to bring the neck close to straight. While I haven't done a straight A/B of the two necks, it does seem that the B string has better sustain and is a little clearer sounding on the new neck. The clarity of the B string could still be improved further up the neck, but I'm going to try a tapered B to see whether that helps.
This makes me wonder whether neck stiffness is as important as anything else to a good sounding B-string.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Beer of the Bass

[JTUK]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1407762213' post='2523672']
Not at all true IME. Good construction and the right choice of string to match the bass a far more critical than an extra inch of string length. Any luthier capable of making a good sounding 5-string with a 35" scale length will be able to make one just as good with a 34" scale. None of the 35" scale basses that I've owned have had a low B that could compete with my 34" Gus, Warwick or Sei basses.
[/quote]

I'd agree. I'd even say that construction method is not critical..ie, Thru-neck over bolt-on, as both of my J5's sound
very good to my ears. Any luthier who makes Super jazz 5's ( and most have to contemplate that model ) will likely be bolt-on.. as in Celinder, Sei and Sadowsky.
However, contruction quality IS key, IMO.
I always say good luck finding a great 5st for under £1000 and there is a reason for this, IMO, and that is because
construction quality is more critical to get a great B string.

[stingrayPete1977]

I was a fairly vocal anti 5 string person when I joined this forum, once you get your head around a fiver I think it is really hard to want to go back, sure some folk say they played a 5 string for a few years as their main bass then went home but I feel deep down they probably were playing a 4 + 1 style of playing rather than across the board, often my thoughts there are compounded by the "and I never used the low notes much anyway" at the end of their post, If I had the option of a 4 string or a 5 but the open B-D# were unusuable I would still take the 5 now!

I have had the pleasure of many a bass of 4 and 5 string variety and I dont think any were beyond all hope for a life on stage, I have played 34 and 35 inch 5 strings and the outcomes have been varied IME, The so called daddy of the B string the Dingwalls have left me fairly cold tonally compared to some really nice Laklands that were just Skylines, I use an Ibanez of some sort at practice most tuesdays, wooden looking thing about £450 worth I think? It is a great bass that I could use for the rest of my playing days easily.

[bassmayhem]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1407765846' post='2523721']
Based on my experience I'll have to disagree. The Gus and Sei basses may be expensive luthier-built instruments, but the Warwick is a MiK Pro Series and still easily out-performs any 35" scale bass that I've played. IME the biggest obstacle to getting a decent low B on a 34" bass is having a bolt-on neck. The only BO 5-string bass with a 34" scale I've played that has been any good is my Yamaha BJ5B which is essentially a limited edition (only 50 made) TRB II with an SBV shaped body and headstock so hardly a standard bass.

Gus basses are in [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/66328-bigredxs-weird-wonderful-basses"]this thread[/url] and the Sei can be seen [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/136517-fretless-porn/page__view__findpost__p__1235459"]here[/url].
[/quote]
Really nice basses!!!

[tauzero]

[quote name='razze06' timestamp='1407755390' post='2523561']
Fair enough, I agree with you. I realize that I'm not that interested in the low B after all, so I'm not really prepared to go to the troubles of revising my gear and my technique on the off chance that I might use a low note in one of our covers...
[/quote]

I very rarely go below bottom E but I choose 5-string as it's not about the extra low notes, it's about being able to play more across than up and down, and having a bigger tonal selection.

[razze06]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1408091917' post='2526943']
I very rarely go below bottom E but I choose 5-string as it's not about the extra low notes, it's about being able to play more across than up and down, and having a bigger tonal selection.
[/quote]

Fair enough, these are all advantages of 5-stringers. I just realised I don't need them enough to relearn a lot of my technique so I can make use of them.

I have to say i'm quite lazy, so I'll wait until the lack of a 5th string begins to be a problem for my playing, instead of trying to pre-empt it

Edited August 15, 2014 by razze06

[chris_b]

I play across, up and down, high and low, anywhere that sounds good. I don't often play low C or B but when I do it's because it sounds right.

A guitarist I know wrote song in D. His bassist (4 strings) played it high and when I gig with him I play it low. Because it sounds so much better.

He now makes the other guy tune the E down to D.