Tab

[Bilbo]

In light of lobematt's discussions, I thought it was time we had a conversation about Tab, the practice of representing nots by indicating the fret that each note of a line is played upon in order to allow non-readers a 'short cut' to learning the parts without having to learn to read conventional notation.

To be blunt, that is the most dumbass piece of logic I have ever come across in my 33 years of playing. In order to work out something off a tab sheet, particularly something complicated that you may not be able to pick up by ear, you will need to spend at least as much time fart-arsing with it as you would learning it by ear off the recording.

If you can't read, learn parts using some sort of transcribing software that slows things down. If you can't 'hear' a part that way, you sure as hell won't be able to figure it out from a tab sheet. If you want to learn how to read something, learn to read the dots. I don't mean sight read fly sh*t on toilet paper, just learn enough to find the notes and translate them onto the neck in the same way you would a tab chart. Reading dots enough for practice and learning is not as demanding as reading dots on a gig but it is useful in communicating ideas.

Or am I wrong? Again.

[AntLockyer]

I have used tab recently to learn a song. I don't have a slowy downy thing so I looked at the tab and with the aid of the record learned to play it pretty quickly (well enough for my needs). Tab on its own is useless, a record on its own is hard, dots I am at Greensleeves level so far

[Dad3353]

One could just as easily recommend that a budding artist/painter squint carefully at the colour of the leaves in a tree to accurately paint a landscape, albeit slowly. 'Painting by numbers' is an alternative which gives a result in less time, more especially for those whose skills are not yet developed. No, it's not the most academically correct way, but it's very useful for many that are not necessarily so much concerned with the method, but rather the result. It can change over time; one may abandon the beginners tools as one progresses, much as one takes off the 'fairy' wheels once one knows how to cycle. Tablature is not deadly, nor even contagious. It's simply an alternative. Solfege is only tab which has evolved over time.
I'm not defending tab as a substitute for dots; merely saying that it has its uses. There is more (far more...) than tab, or even dots. Orchestral conductors have the whole lot under their noses, libretto included, for opera. Can many bassists read that..? Let's not be too snobbish about this; to each his own.
Just my tuppence-worth.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Dad3353

[Horizontalste]

I don't think tab is such a bad thing for beginners provided they know why they are playing the notes in relation to the song.
If they rely solely on tab I think they are doing themselves an injustice.
I play in a covers band so reading is not really important to me, I'm never going to be a professional musician. So long as I can keep figuring out what I need to know by ear & my (basic) knowledge of scales & keys then I'm happy.
There's lots of mileage gained from the major, minor & pentatonic.

[No lust in Jazz]

We're all different, it doesn't matter to me how somebody learns a song, for me its about how this person plays it.

I'm more intersted in why a player plays a note than much else, there again I like 'getting under the bonnet' of material, most of the TAB that I've seen has been inaccurate nonsense and for this reason I tend to steer clear of it - like the man above said each to his own.

[KingBollock]

Uncouth savage that I am, I am perfectly fine using tab along with my ears to learn songs, thankyouverymuch.

[Grangur]

I in my heart I agree with most of the above. Tha frustration I see though, is the injustice that when the music is performed on stage or in a video, the viewer won't generally know the difference between a musician and a tab reader.

This makes the situation different from the artist and the guy who paints by numbers.

Earlier today I was watching a video of a guy playing a great bass cover of a Yes track. He was playing a Ric and it was, to my ears, exactly like Chris Squire's playing. I couldn't help thinking though, "does this guy actually KNOW what he's doing or is it all reproduction of it parrot fashion? "Both are a akill, but as it is entered for a competition, I think the winner ahould be a musician, not an impersonator.

[Hobbayne]

I use tabs however, they are only useful if you are familar with the tune being played. 'Money' for example, a tab would be useless if you have never heard the song.

[KingBollock]

So someone that reads music, which gives instruction right down to the last detail, is a musician, but someone that reads tab, which requires listening to the music and working out how it works, isn't?

What about someone that uses tab to learn other peoples' music, but also writes their own music?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404833544' post='2496199']
I in my heart I agree with most of the above. Tha frustration I see though, is the injustice that when the music is performed on stage or in a video, the viewer won't generally know the difference between a musician and a tab reader.

This makes the situation different from the artist and the guy who paints by numbers.

Earlier today I was watching a video of a guy playing a great bass cover of a Yes track. He was playing a Ric and it was, to my ears, exactly like Chris Squire's playing. I couldn't help thinking though, "does this guy actually KNOW what he's doing or is it all reproduction of it parrot fashion? "Both are a akill, but as it is entered for a competition, I think the winner ahould be a musician, not an impersonator.
[/quote]

How many 'dots' readers are aware of the harmonic implications of what they're playing..? Dots and tab are identical, in that they're simply a visual transmission of the music. Dots are more powerful; they portray more information. Neither contain 'musicianship' inherently. There are many musicians that can read neither.

[quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1404833768' post='2496204']
I use tabs however, they are only useful if you are familar with the tune being played. 'Money' for example, a tab would be useless if you have never heard the song.
[/quote]

I would disagree that it's useless. Hearing the original helps greatly, but is not a requirement. Reading from dots is closer, but there is still room for improvement from listening, even then. Having all must surely be better than only having some..? Why the 'either/or'..? What's the beef..?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Dad3353

[Grangur]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1404834011' post='2496208']
So someone that reads music, which gives instruction right down to the last detail, is a musician, but someone that reads tab, which requires listening to the music and working out how it works, isn't?

What about someone that uses tab to learn other peoples' music, but also writes their own music?
[/quote]
Very fair point - my apologies for the clumsy use of pigeon holes.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1404834179' post='2496211']
How many 'dots' readers are aware of the harmonic implications of what they're playing..? Dots and tab are identical, in that they're simply a visual transmission of the music. Dots are more powerful; they portray more information. Neither contain 'musicianship' inherently. There are many musicians that can read neither...

[/quote]
Very good point. Mrs G plays piano. She only ever plays written music. She has no more idea of the theory behind what she plays than your average TAB reader. In some instances of its use a score is "Tabs for Snobs"; well written in that it gives timing info, but Mrs G is, in effect, a Tab reader.

[b]Edit[/b]: PS, I think I'm a snob

Edited July 8, 2014 by Grangur

[Bilbo]

My 'beef' is simply that the work involved in translating tab into music is as great as learning dots. So why bother with a shortcut that isn't? Tab is bass-centric and of no use outside of bass-palying. Dots can be passed to a pianist, trombone player, cellist etc etc and (nowadays, at the flick of a switch, transposed up and octave, into treble, alto and tenor clef for sax, trumpet, guitar etc etc. Tab is more like a jigsaw than painting by numbers. It only works if you have the lid

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1404834697' post='2496220']
My 'beef' is simply that the work involved in translating tab into music is as great as learning dots. So why bother with a shortcut that isn't? Tab is bass-centric and of no use outside of bass-palying. Dots can be passed to a pianist, trombone player, cellist etc etc and (nowadays, at the flick of a switch, transposed up and octave, into treble, alto and tenor clef for sax, trumpet, guitar etc etc. Tab is more like a jigsaw than painting by numbers. It only works if you have the lid
[/quote]

It's difficult countering this, as it makes me seem to be a Defender of the Tab, which I'm not. I would just respectfully refute some of this. Tab does not (in it's usual form...) tell us if a note is long or short. It only tells us to put a finger (any finger...) on the fret of a string. It's much easier for a complete idiot to do. If there is an accompanying stave, the timing can be learnt, but one has to have already learnt the signification of the dot's form (whole, half, quaver, breve... which language..?) plus the 'dotted' dots. Yes, it's easy enough once learnt, but it's not intuitive. Many learner pieces are whole notes; an easy piece can be picked up in seconds in tab. It helps if you've heard the piece, and most folks wanting to play a known song have, indeed, the lid as a reference. So it works.
If one has a reasonable enough motivation to leave these trainer wheels behind, all well and good; no problem with that. There are, however, many thousands of very competent bass players/musicians who do not feel the need for reading. Why is this a problem for anyone..? Tabs have there uses, dots have theirs. One is far, far easier for a beginner, despite its inherent limitations. So..? I still can't really see why the tools used successfully by so many folks is troubling for anyone else. Are they perfect..? No. Is there a better way..? Yes. Some take that path, some never do. Why is it a problem, rather than being merely an alternative way of transmitting music..? Maybe it's me being dense today; I'll not labour the point...

Forgot to add...

The software I use transposes, whether dots or tab; makes no difference. Working with a MIDI 'piano roll', I see the pitch and note length, and also velocities and such, without either. There are several other musical notation systems, often to give information which standard notation cannot (tone, timbre, beat and such; think synthesiser LFOs and the like...). I would repeat: standard notation is fine, but is not the only medium.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Dad3353

[KingBollock]

I can't read music. I did try some simple stuff when I took up the penny whistle but I could never get it to stick. I use tab sometimes to get me started and fill in blanks, mainly because I struggle to learn by ear alone.

The thing is with tab is that there is nothing to learn, it is just there and very obvious. It is like someone pointing at the fretboard telling you what notes to hit. I think it does require some musicality, though, because the music isn't in the information given, that part you have to work out for yourself.

But to be fair to something someone said earlier, I don't call myself a musician.

[Grangur]

Interesting point you raise there, KB.

I read scores. I try to avoid Tabs apart from using it a recommendation for where on the neck I would be best to find the notes for accessibility; although I often ignore it. Does that make me a musician?

In my estimation I'm not a musician anymore than an avid reader of books is an author.

[peteb]

This old chestnut again!

Why turn your nose up at tab? It can be a useful shortcut and has been around longer than notation (for medieval lutes, etc). The problem is with the quality of the transcribing, which applies just as much to notation (just ask any pit player)! Surely both have their strengths and weaknesses – I would imagine that ‘Eruption’ written out in notation would be pretty meaningless but a decent tab might just show you how to play it!

At times I feel that I would be a better all-round musician if I could read better. I am sure that I would have learnt properly if I lived in the States where there seem to be a greater variety of gigs around, or if I had a great yearning to play in a pit or had any interest in playing jazz gigs. However, in nearly 35 years of gigging and playing in bands I have never been in a musical situation where reading would have been an advantage! And this is despite the fact that many of the people I have played with are proficient readers…

[TKenrick]

I grew up playing exclusively from TAB and didn't really go anywhere near notation until I got to music college (let's call it a 'rude awakening'!). I found it amazingly difficult to start with but I stuck at it, and after a few months it started to make sense. I now can't go anywhere near TAB - I find it deeply confusing and it slows me down considerably.

My main objection to TAB is that it allows people to play without understanding what they're doing, particularly when it comes to fretboard knowledge. Although you can still play from notation without an understanding of the theoretical concepts used in the music, you HAVE to know what note you're playing and where it lies on your instrument.

Another problem is that TAB represents someone else's opinion of how something is played, whereas notation gives you the freedom to choose how to play a line depending on your personal preferences.

Then there's the lack of rhythmic information....


I find reading to be an immensely useful skill, not just for doing gigs (about 30% of the gigs that I do involve notation) but as a tool for accessing music quickly and as a means of communicating easily with other players.

[sybass6]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The problem with TAB is that there is no musical information or content contained in it. When you're learning your bass you need to associate your neck in pitches (notes) first, this is how we improve as musicians. Not by associating it with numbers. TAB does not allow us to do this. It stops us from learning music because TAB isn't music it's simply a numbers system developed for people who don't know how to read. In my opinion, and that's all this is, TAB will not help you develop as a bass player and certainly won't help you musically. If you want to learn a piece of music without reading the notation then use your ears. That's far more beneficial.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Our aim is to develop our bass playing and musicianship at the same time. Developing both aspects in tandem. Learn to read, improve your ear. Leave TAB alone. Some people on Facebook etc have put forward the argument saying "What about the Nashville Number System, that's numbers"......But the difference is that the Nashville system is used by studio musicians for ease of transposition and is fast to write down on sessions that have a fast turn over. You need to know music and your harmonised scale to use and read it. TAB you don't. You don't find it in any professional musical situation whatsoever.......Why does it exist then in music education?[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Sorry for rambling on.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Best regards.[/font][/color]

[peteb]

[quote name='sybass6' timestamp='1404943160' post='2497292']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The problem with TAB is that there is no musical information or content contained in it. When you're learning your bass you need to associate your neck in pitches (notes) first, this is how we improve as musicians. Not by associating it with numbers. TAB does not allow us to do this. It stops us from learning music because TAB isn't music it's simply a numbers system developed for people who don't know how to read. In my opinion, and that's all this is, TAB will not help you develop as a bass player and certainly won't help you musically. If you want to learn a piece of music without reading the notation then use your ears. That's far more beneficial.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Our aim is to develop our bass playing and musicianship at the same time. Developing both aspects in tandem. Learn to read, improve your ear. Leave TAB alone. Some people on Facebook etc have put forward the argument saying "What about the Nashville Number System, that's numbers"......But the difference is that the Nashville system is used by studio musicians for ease of transposition and is fast to write down on sessions that have a fast turn over. You need to know music and your harmonised scale to use and read it. TAB you don't. You don't find it in any professional musical situation whatsoever.......Why does it exist then in music education?[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Sorry for rambling on.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Best regards.[/font][/color]
[/quote]
As I mentioned above, my understanding is that tab actually predates standard notation.

A transcription simply shows you what notes to play, be it tab or notation. It has nothing to do with musicianship or learning music theory. My sister-in-law has been having piano lessons for 20 years and can sight read and play to an intermediate level. When she saw one of my bands she asked where we got the score for all the songs we played. When I chuckled and said that it didn’t work that way she was amazed, “how do you know what to play if you don’t have sheet music”?? She couldn’t work out a simple harmony part and I doubt that she would know what a mode is but she can sight read! Regardless of whether you prefer tab or notation, ear is obviously king and there is no substitute for having a working knowledge of music theory.

Notation has several advantages over tab in that it does provide more rhythmic information and is obviously prevalent in certain professional situations. When someone writes out a bass part it might be played on a bass guitar or it could be played on a synth or even a tuba! However, as far as I am concerned tab has its uses for demonstrating in simple terms how to play a piece of music on a stringed instrument.

A good friend of mine has learnt to read music, despite never needing to do so before in his (professional) music career. He has done this so that he can make a living giving bass lessons, teaching youngsters how to read music so that they can pass music exams. Many of these kids will go on to play in bands where they will never need to read music, unless they decide to start giving bass lessons…

[ambient]

I've just got back from a rehearsal with my function band in London. We rehearse at the guitarists home, he's got his garage converted into a studio.

I also recorded some bass for a couple of his songs. This took maybe 30 minutes, he'd composed the bass parts in logic, then just printed out the score for me to play.

Nice and simple, no faffing about having to work out what he'd played. I just played what was on the score, then made a couple of suggestions that I thought might be nice.

[peteb]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1404948641' post='2497322']
I've just got back from a rehearsal with my function band in London. We rehearse at the guitarists home, he's got his garage converted into a studio.

I also recorded some bass for a couple of his songs. This took maybe 30 minutes, he'd composed the bass parts in logic, then just printed out the score for me to play.

Nice and simple, no faffing about having to work out what he'd played. I just played what was on the score, then made a couple of suggestions that I thought might be nice.
[/quote]
That's great and the main reason for learning to read. If someone wants to work that way they are always likelyto give you a call rather than me. Of course the likes of Pino, Billy Sheehan and Jeff Beck seem to manage without reading but still...

However, in 35 years I have never once been in the position where someone has produced a score in that way. If I had of done a few times I might have learnt properly. I have to say that I have played with a few guys who have toured as part of backing bands for well known singers and they don't seem to have had scores presented to them either. That is not to say that it doesn't on some gigs!

Nether the less, it still doesn't mean that you should look down on tab as a way of showing people who don't read the dots how to play a particular piece of music!

[foal30]

Number of Musicians I have met who learnt to read music and wish they hadn't of bothered = 0

Number of Musicians I have met who can't read music and have no real functioning concept of Musical theory but wish they did = 8000

Edited July 10, 2014 by foal30

[Grangur]

Isn't this really a matter of "horses for courses" ?

If you book [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Pino, Billy Sheehan or Jeff Beck, or any other leading bass player, you're booking them for what they will bring to the party and add to the music. This will also be true in a lot of band situations. So in this case no reading is required. I guess in this situation what gets to be the bass part will be what comes out of a jam session.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If you're doing a theatre pit gig you will probably need to read. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]TABs are all very well, but if a pianist is writing the score for a more serious piece of music and wants to write a bass part for you he will either have to learn the bass fretboard to write the TABS for you, or you will have to learn to read music.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Speaking for myself, I learned to read and play from a score because I was reading the TABs in books and thinking "this is playing by numbers", it wasn't doing anything to help me learn the notes on the FB. I'm not sure what it was doing to improve my knowledge. So learning to read has got me more into understanding the chords being used and the logic and patterns. But I guess that's not everyone's cup of tea.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The TAB can be useful as a recommendation to play the score on certain part of the neck to get better accessibility. But then I've also seen books where the TAB has you running all over the neck when I can see there's an easier way to play it.[/font][/color]

[Adrenochrome]

For a lot of the music that I play, and have played, TAB trumps score for things like drop tunings. For example, there are parts that sound MUCH better where the low C is played on a drop-C tune 4-string bass than a fretted C on a 5-string bass (for pedalled bass notes etc). This is easily shown on TAB but I haven't seen it done with music score.

[ambient]

It's funny, it's maybe because I taught myself at the start, and didn't really know that you could play [b][i]without[/i][/b] being about to read and know the fretboard notes, that the first thing I did was to learn the fretboard notes, and where they were on the stave.

I just assumed that when I started playing in a band, I'd be given music to play.

I did come from having learned violin at school.

Edited July 10, 2014 by ambient