Tab

[peteb]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404981452' post='2497438']
Isn't this really a matter of "horses for courses" ?

If you book [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Pino, Billy Sheehan or Jeff Beck, or any other leading bass player, you're booking them for what they will bring to the party and add to the music. This will also be true in a lot of band situations. So in this case no reading is required. I guess in this situation what gets to be the bass part will be what comes out of a jam session.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]If you're doing a theatre pit gig you will probably need to read. [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]TABs are all very well, but if a pianist is writing the score for a more serious piece of music and wants to write a bass part for you he will either have to learn the bass fretboard to write the TABS for you, or you will have to learn to read music.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Speaking for myself, I learned to read and play from a score because I was reading the TABs in books and thinking "this is playing by numbers", it wasn't doing anything to help me learn the notes on the FB. I'm not sure what it was doing to improve my knowledge. So learning to read has got me more into understanding the chords being used and the logic and patterns. But I guess that's not everyone's cup of tea.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The TAB can be useful as a recommendation to play the score on certain part of the neck to get better accessibility. But then I've also seen books where the TAB has you running all over the neck when I can see there's an easier way to play it.[/font][/color]
[/quote]
Excellent post

[ambient]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1404984083' post='2497490']
For a lot of the music that I play, and have played, TAB trumps score for things like drop tunings. For example, there are parts that sound MUCH better where the low C is played on a drop-C tune 4-string bass than a fretted C on a 5-string bass (for pedalled bass notes etc). This is easily shown on TAB but I haven't seen it done with music score.
[/quote]

I have seen 1 or 2 scores where it says drop C or whatever, I have a chart somewhere for 46 and 2 by Tool, which is drop D.

My problem with TAB is the lack or rather absence of rhythmic information, ok you play the note 3rd fret on the D string, but for how long, and how ?

Edited July 10, 2014 by ambient

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1404984582' post='2497499']
I have seen 1 or 2 scores where it says drop C or whatever, I have a chart somewhere for 46 and 2 by Tool, which is drop D.

My problem with TAB is the lack or rather absence of rhythmic information, ok you play the note 3rd fret on the D string, but for how long, and how ?
[/quote]

That's fair enough then, if it is captured on some score. I'd agree that reading TAB blind would make it difficult to reproduce a bass part accurately. So, a useful tool that shouldn't be relied on too much?

[Grangur]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1404984083' post='2497490']
For a lot of the music that I play, and have played, TAB trumps score for things like drop tunings. For example, there are parts that sound MUCH better where the low C is played on a drop-C tune 4-string bass than a fretted C on a 5-string bass (for pedalled bass notes etc). This is easily shown on TAB but I haven't seen it done with music score.
[/quote]
WOW! You have shattered my preconception that folk who play drop C and drop D were amazingly talented. I've been thinking "It's hard enough to remember and work with standard tuning, let alone to have to remember the fret layout in the other tunings as well."

Now I know, it's all just a case or remembering the TABs. After you've worked out and written the TAB sheet I guess, or do you get that from a TABs site?

[ambient]

There's a trombone player who's jazz band I play in occasionally. He studied at Birmingham conservatoire, and just took it for granted that I could sight-read when I started playing for him. He learned to read as he was learning to play as a small child.

He's only young, 23 or 24, but was shocked when I told him that most contemporary musicians couldn't sight-read, and plenty didn't actually know what note they were playing, never mind how it related to what they were playing over.

[Grangur]

Going off topic slightly; I was surprised when a guitarist guy who lodges with Mrs G & I was showing me once how he mostly plays in drop C, but for a lot of tracks he changes the tuning, so he can form a simple chord on the frets and strum and get the sound he wants. He's not got the faintest idea of what notes he's playing in ANY tuning whatsoever.

This then got me thinking about when, at a pro-gig, the guitarists (mainly) have a new guitar handed to them for each track. I guess this is because each track demands different tuning. So much for fans living under the illusion that [i]*insert name of well-know guitarist*[/i] is a brilliant musician. It's clearly mostly smoke and mirrors.

[Marvin]

I don't know why people get so up tight as to how people choose to 'read' music. The constant bemoaning and sneering is nothing short of snobbery and arrogance.

I've had the most fun in music I've had in ages over the last 18 months...in the main from dropping this nagging fear that I wasn't a good bass player because I can't read and I don't know x,y and z. Sometimes I'll play something and I've not the faintest idea why it works, but to be honest I really don't care.

I'm not going to bother learning to read for a few reasons. No one I'm in bands with reads. The music I play isn't written in standard notation and I don't want to do the gigs that would require me to do so.

LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE.

[gary mac]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1404992757' post='2497627']

This then got me thinking about when, at a pro-gig, the guitarists (mainly) have a new guitar handed to them for each track. I guess this is because each track demands different tuning. So much for fans living under the illusion that [i]*insert name of well-know guitarist*[/i] is a brilliant musician. It's clearly mostly smoke and mirrors.
[/quote]

Not necessarily Rich, I know a couple of guitarists, one in particular, who plays superbly well but hasn't a clue as to what key he is playing in, or even the name of the chord. But can work out a tune from just a quick listen.

[Grangur]

[quote name='gary mac' timestamp='1405579989' post='2503147']
Not necessarily Rich, I know a couple of guitarists, one in particular, who plays superbly well but hasn't a clue as to what key he is playing in, or even the name of the chord. But can work out a tune from just a quick listen.
[/quote]
Fair point. I didn't mean to tarnish them all with the same brush.
Joan Armatrading can't play guitar in a proper sense. I heard her say she's tried to do lessons, but whenever she does that she hears certain harmonics or scales and then noodles off into writing mode.

[gary mac]

Went to see her a few year back at the Cambridge Corn Exchange, a very enjoyable gig

[solo4652]

To answer the OP's question directly; "Yes - I think you're wrong." Again. I do get frustrated when people dismiss TABs as being too simplistic. TABs [i]can[/i] give information about note lengths and even muting, bends, pull-offs and volume changes. See the legends here: [url="http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/p/pink_floyd/money_ver2_btab.htm"]http://tabs.ultimate...y_ver2_btab.htm[/url] It's rare to find a TAB written using these legends, however.

I don't read dots. When learning a new song, I'll look up the TAB on a number of different websites to get me started. I'll probably end up with something cobbled together from different TABs amended with my own interpretation and playing technique preferences. If I can't find a TAB, I'll start with a chord chart, and a recording and write a TAB for myself.

From Bilbo's posts, it seems he works in orchestral pits and finds dots helpful for that. I play in a pub covers band and I use TABS, chord charts, my own notes and my ears. He has a system that works for him and I have a system that works for me. Maybe dots are better when there's a need to share and discuss music with people who play different instruments, and TABs work perfectly well if you don't need to do that.

Each to their own. Live and let live.

Steve

Edited for naff typing skills.

Edited July 17, 2014 by solo4652

[jakenewmanbass]

Tab can give a limited insight into what notes are used to make a piece of music work.
Notation allows you to read at first sitting and express in full whatever nuance was captured by the composer or player. A certain amount of interpretation is needed but it's basically all there (assuming the parts are good)
Nobody ever did a gig where the music was played first time through from TAB and if you consider that, for eg, a film score orchestra will play a score for recording at sight and get it in one, two or a few takes there is no room for error when the day costs 30 grand.
I can see that it's horses for courses if you aren't working at that level but my inclination would be to say, if you're not going to need to read to play then learn the parts by ear, because the aural tradition of learning is every bit as valid and musical as reading, reading is simply commercially more expedient. If you use TAB then in my estimation there is a risk of a half arsed mediocre result because you're only dealing with a small proportion of the info...
Reading and ear playing is vastly more comprehensive.

[KingBollock]

You can't use tab alone, you have to use your ear. The tab gives you a clue as to where to start, but you [i]have[/i] to use a musical ear to make it work. I believe that isn't such a bad thing when someone is first learning, having to listen properly to the part you are supposed to be playing. Using tab doesn't stop you from using your ears, it actually encourages it.

For someone that is in a rock band, who learns the tunes at home and then rehearses with the band to get them as the band wants them, there is nothing wrong with tab.

I have learned to read English because I will use it, there is plenty of stuff that interests me that I can read in English. I haven't learned Latin because it would be no real use to me, I don't need it and I get by without it. If I was to take up theology I might feel that I could use it and go to the bother of learning it.

It's like some people believe that their way of going about music, the way they learn, the way they play and what they do with it is the only way, and they can't understand that someone else might like to do it differently. Either that or some people enjoy lording it over the plebs that can't read score, just another way to make themselves feel superior when they really just come across as narrow minded snobs. Anyone remember the sososososososo guy...?

[jakenewmanbass]

If you're using TAB as a place to get you started then in my view you're making a really important disconnect with the nuance of the process of learning that makes the difference between an estimation and an in depth authentic representation of a line. (It's just my view btw, I have no interest in lording over anyone, you are allowed to disagree)
If it becomes your instinct to find and represent a sound by using your ears then a critical connection is made.
I frankly am not really concerned with how people learn, I am however interested in things being good... I'm very happy for people to please themselves in their method if they're having a good time then all power to them, but as a player, I can't really think of many of my colleagues who have got great at what they do by using TAB, and in the business there is a broad view that TAB really misses the point for taking an instrument seriously, I think that broad view has little to do with snobbery and everything to do with players (especially whilst teaching) encountering rampant mediocrity amongst TAB users.

Edited July 17, 2014 by jakenewmanbass

[Dad3353]

([i]Sigh[/i]...)

Some folks just don't get it, it would seem.

[jakenewmanbass]

So 25 years of professional playing and teaching doesn't allow me to have a view on the merits of methods of learning. All that experience can only muster a 'some folks just don't get it' rather than an acknowledgment that I have a view, it differs from yours and it is that TAB generally produces poor results.
As I was at pains to point out, I'm more than happy to live in a world where people satisfy themselves, especially with something as rewarding as music.
In my world each individual is entitled to pursue any route to their own happiness they decide upon so long as it doesn't hurt others, but at the same time I'm entitled to a view... now music is an arena in which judgement is important because excellence produces the most exquisite beauty imaginable, my particular corner of the music world is interested in that pursuit (it's my choice I'm allowed) If others are unable to create the capacity on a forum (god forbid I proffer a view on a forum) for a view that is not perfectly aligned with theirs to muster such a derisory response as to suggest I 'don't get' something that you do is in my view rather against the spirit of forum. I 'get' plenty and my view remains that TAB produces poor results. You can choose to have my view not affect you adversely by deciding that what works for you is fine, ironically I would agree with you to take that choice, but come on, a suggestion that my understanding of the topic is somehow sub that of my fellow forumites because I have a less than concurrent view....? I expect more of you Dad...

[ambient]

In my opinion, and that's all it is, I'm not in any way criticising anyone, by only relying on TAB, you're seriously running the risk of limiting what you can do further on in life.

What you do now, isn't necessarily what you're gonna be doing in 10 years time.

TAB is only any good for guitar or bass, hopeless for anything (as far as I know), that doesn't have frets.

What if you join a band that has brass, or string players ?

One of my tutors makes her living from composing and arranging string and brass parts. She's done work for Coldplay, Muse and loads of others. You can't get a string section in and give them a chord chart, or hum the parts to them.

Here's a chart for a piece I wrote for an exam recently. It's just page 2 of 16. I never met the girl who played oboe for me, I composed what I wanted her to play, and emailed the score to her, she recorded it and emailed the part back.

Everything had to be scored as you can see, so you could basically give it to someone else and they could record a copy of it with the minimum amount of hassle.

[attachment=166947:Screen Shot 2014-07-18 at 00.51.06.png]

Edited July 18, 2014 by ambient

[KingBollock]

Tab doesn't produce poor results. The aim of tab isn't to give a perfect representation of a piece of music. Just because you know some people that use tab that aren't the best at their instrument, doesn't make tab inherently bad. I could argue that it takes more skill to produce a piece of music from tab, because it requires that you use your ears and have a proper feel for the music, than to robotically reproduce something from exact instructions, but I wouldn't accuse all score readers of being guilty of that and wouldn't blame the use of score for it, either.

And I am perfectly capable of making beautiful music, it just probably wouldn't be your kind of music.

[jakenewmanbass]

It really does produce poor results, I know because I've looked.. I've taught literally hundreds of people over twenty five years up to degree standard, but apparently I'm denied access to that view by the views of others... but really you don't need to worry because in a free world you get to ignore my view, and I'm happy for you to do so.
The word here is defensive, my view is just a view, handbags can really be put away, I'm just an ordinary bloke with a view, I'm not god, you can ignore my view and carry on, if at any point in the future you're interested in my view I'll happily discuss many topics with you, I simply require to be given the freedom to hold a view.

[KingBollock]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1405642350' post='2504043']
It really does produce poor results, I know because I've looked.. I've taught literally hundreds of people over twenty five years up to degree standard, but apparently I'm denied access to that view by the views of others... but really you don't need to worry because in a free world you get to ignore my view, and I'm happy for you to do so.
The word here is defensive, my view is just a view, handbags can really be put away, I'm just an ordinary bloke with a view, I'm not god, you can ignore my view and carry on, if at any point in the future you're interested in my view I'll happily discuss many topics with you, I simply require to be given the freedom to hold a view.
[/quote]
But now we go around in circles because you expressed your view in an open forum and you have become defensive because others had the gall to express their view.

It looks like you went "Here's my view! Don't try to contradict it because I know I am right, I have had far more experience than you! So there!". Then, upon someone trying to explain why they hold the view that they do, you go "I don't care! I'm right, you're wrong! So shut up!".

When it comes to points of view and opinions, you should practise what you preach.

[jakenewmanbass]

It's inherent and explicit in all my posts that each person is entitled to their own view, that you choose to ignore that to take umbrage at my view is a matter for you.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1405641235' post='2504033']...I expect more of you Dad...[/quote]

I'm sorry you take things this way, I specifically didn't 'quote' you in my post as it's not aimed specifically at yourself. I respect your point of view, and firmly uphold your right to express that here; no qualms with that.
It still baffles me, however (not from your post alone, but equally others here...) why it has to be stated that there is only one 'true' path..? Your opinion on that is fine, but there are so many flagrant examples of folks, in and out of the music industry, that make fine music without having to necessarily read. I've never claimed that 'dots' are bad; quite the opposite. I'd not claim either that all 'dot' readers are 'good' musicians, amateur or 'pro'. You have extensive experience of teaching your method, which is fine (respect...), but others have equally good results using their methods. It's not a surprise that, from your point of view, you don't see these results, but they are there; for my part I've seen this many times.
All I would say further is that, once again, understanding music theory, including reading music scores, is a wonderful thing. There are other paths to creating and understanding music than those. This I do not hold as simply 'my opinion', but to be an established fact. There were fine musicians before 'dots'. Some cultures (indeed; many...) do not use anything but vocal transmission, with no physical medium at all, and this for centuries. Are these lesser musicians..? I say not. I am not attacking 'dots', nor music teaching based on these highly successful methods. I do, however, find the view that this is all somewhat reductionist; there is more 'out there' even than 'dots'.
Yes, of course your opinion is valid, and is fine to be expressed. So, then, is mine.
Apologies for having slighted you personally; that was not my intention.

[jakenewmanbass]

Apology gracefully accepted Dad and thanks, it's nice to have a reasoned response.
I am actually a fervent exponent of the aural tradition of learning, (I am an autodidact) reading came later for me with expedience at it's heart.
My feelings about how music is performed when it's truly known by the player is a well established standpoint, well known amongst my colleagues (I'm known for learning the music, playing without the dots)
The reason I'm inclined towards my view of tab is through teaching people that have dabbled and got a certain way into the learning journey but comparing that with the aural tradition and reading It's been my experience that there are some really fundamental elements missing when people use a method which only includes a minimum of information... I've always been left feeling that TAB offers shortcuts past important learning elements that leave the player with some holes that are essential to becoming a complete player (at this point it should be understood that I'm generally preparing students for a professional standard) so I'm very happy to see enthusiasts getting what they can from it, and I've intimated that in every post, but I feel it's only right that I get to offer my experiential observations, and I would hope that my track record would at least give some readers some pause for thought when deciding their learning methods.

edit: for the record, at no point have I suggested there is only one true path, I would only seek to discuss the merits and pitfalls of a particular method

Edited July 18, 2014 by jakenewmanbass

[Dad3353]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1405644032' post='2504051']Apology gracefully accepted Dad...[/quote]
Phew..! For a (too long...) moment there, I thought we were going to fall out..! More power to your elbow, squire, and congratulations on having a firm path to tread, whilst sharing your knowledge. The next cuppa is on me, next time you're passing through.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1405644740' post='2504052']
Phew..! For a (too long...) moment there, I thought we were going to fall out..! More power to your elbow, squire, and congratulations on having a firm path to tread, whilst sharing your knowledge. The next cuppa is on me, next time you're passing through.
[/quote]