Tab

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1405642913' post='2504044']
But now we go around in circles because you expressed your view in an open forum and you have become defensive[/quote]
I have no need to defend my view as I'm happy for others to differ (just the 4th time I've said that now)
[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1405642913' post='2504044']because others had the gall to express their view.[/quote]
I've invited the views of others to differ and be happy for that to be the case several times in my posts
[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1405642913' post='2504044']
It looks like you went "Here's my view! Don't try to contradict it because I know I am right, I have had far more experience than you! So there!". Then, upon someone trying to explain why they hold the view that they do, you go "I don't care! I'm right, you're wrong! So shut up!".
[/quote]
This is the hilarious bit, wtf does 'it looks like you went' mean? What I said is what I feel and I've offered my view and said that others may vary and I'm more than happy for that to be the case, I'm grown up enough to express my view and not feel injured when someone disagrees, in fact I love the diversity of humanity that is derived from that position, so do me a favour read the lines, not what you imagine is between the lines.
I have tried to present a balanced all encompassing outlook for learning here and dared to suggest that of the three methods on offer, my experience has shown TAB to be lacking, you can still disagree with that it's ok, but what's astonishing is that you make wild accusations about the way I present my views which is not backed up by what's down in black and white.
[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1405642913' post='2504044']
When it comes to points of view and opinions, you should practise what you preach.
[/quote]
I do, I really do!

Edited July 18, 2014 by jakenewmanbass

[solo4652]

@Ambient - post no 42.

Actually, there are TAB systems for lots of instruments that don't have frets. Here are 3 examples Recorder; [url="http://i40.tinypic.com/125nhid.jpg"]http://i40.tinypic.com/125nhid.jpg[/url] Harmonica: [url="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jEfnezCBEVM/TxYxwx_xaYI/AAAAAAAABXM/dj-0L5PhaWU/s1600/photo-794279.jpg"]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jEfnezCBEVM/TxYxwx_xaYI/AAAAAAAABXM/dj-0L5PhaWU/s1600/photo-794279.jpg[/url] Piano: [url="http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/I1jnWz3bSrI/maxresdefault.jpg"]http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/I1jnWz3bSrI/maxresdefault.jpg[/url]

It seems to me that such instrument-specific TAB systems can be useful to help somebody play that particular instrument. That's why I use bass TABs. Where they may be limited is when different instruments need to play together, and when players of those different instruments need some sort of common language to coordinate activities. Maybe that's when "dots" may have an advantage and maybe that's why Bilbo finds them useful in his orchestra pit, Ambient's tutor finds them useful for writing and composing for string and brass, and Ambient used them to send some music to an Oboist. All good stuff.

Since I don't do any of those things, I'm more than happy to use TABs for the instrument I play.

Horses for courses. Each to their own. Live and let live etc

Steve

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1405674391' post='2504164']
@Ambient - post no 42.

Actually, there are TAB systems for lots of instruments that don't have frets. Here are 3 examples Recorder; [url="http://i40.tinypic.com/125nhid.jpg"]http://i40.tinypic.com/125nhid.jpg[/url] Harmonica: [url="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jEfnezCBEVM/TxYxwx_xaYI/AAAAAAAABXM/dj-0L5PhaWU/s1600/photo-794279.jpg"]http://1.bp.blogspot...hoto-794279.jpg[/url] Piano: [url="http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/I1jnWz3bSrI/maxresdefault.jpg"]http://i1.ytimg.com/...xresdefault.jpg[/url]

It seems to me that such instrument-specific TAB systems can be useful to help somebody play that particular instrument. That's why I use bass TABs. Where they may be limited is when different instruments need to play together, and when players of those different instruments need some sort of common language to coordinate activities. Maybe that's when "dots" may have an advantage and maybe that's why Bilbo finds them useful in his orchestra pit, Ambient's tutor finds them useful for writing and composing for string and brass, and Ambient used them to send some music to an Oboist. All good stuff.

Since I don't do any of those things, I'm more than happy to use TABs for the instrument I play.

Horses for courses. Each to their own. Live and let live etc

Steve
[/quote]
This... another view, with merit.

[solo4652]

I'd like to respond to some of Jakenewmanbass' comments about TABS, since I find myself disagreeing with quite a lot of what he says. Apologies for the clumsy quoting - I can't seem to get the Quote system to work. Operator error on my behalf, most like.

"Tab can give a limited insight into what notes are used to make a piece of music work."

TABs have the facility to give a lot of instrument-specific information about note lengths, bends, hammer-ons, slides, volume changes etc. Please see my post number 36.

"Nobody ever did a gig where the music was played first time through from TAB and if you consider that, for eg, a film score orchestra will play a score for recording at sight and get it in one, two or a few takes there is no room for error when the day costs 30 grand."

Frequently, my covers band plays a song to a giggable standard after just 1 or 2 rehearsals. We all use instrument-specific TAB systems and our ears to learn our own parts beforehand. For me, that's when TABs are useful. Granted, it doesn't cost us 30 grand a day to hire our rehearsal rooms, but we don't want to spend money unnecessarily.

"I can see that it's horses for courses if you aren't working at that [orchestral] level but my inclination would be to say, if you're not going to need to read to play then learn the parts by ear..."

And then what? I have trouble remembering the bass parts for our 35-song songlist, so I use TABS to not only help me to learn a bass part, but also to remember it later.

"If you're using TAB as a place to get you started then in my view you're making a really important disconnect with the nuance of the process of learning that makes the difference between an estimation and an in depth authentic representation of a line"

I treat TABs as a start-point for what I eventually end up playing. I supplement these TABs with a lot of listening and re-TABing to end up with something that's good enough for the music I play and the settings where I play them. That process of finding TABs, listening hard to the music, agreeing/disagreeing with and amending the TABs means I make a strong connection with the music. Furthermore, I am not necessarily aiming for "an in-depth authentic representation of a line" when playing Say you love me at the Dog and Duck.

"If you use TAB then in my estimation there is a risk of a half arsed mediocre result because you're only dealing with a small proportion of the info..."

I would suggest that exactly the same argument could be put forward for dots as well.

Steve

Edited July 18, 2014 by solo4652

[jakenewmanbass]

I think the main thrust here Steve is that you're using both aural and tab, which if it works for you is fine.
My standpoint comes from having had many (mostly young) students over the years who achieved a level that does not befit the hours they've put in, had they used a more comprehensive method they'd have got further.
Judgement is important here, I'm talking about playing music for recordings and live performances that are of a fairly demanding standard, It's really hard to say that without sounding high minded, but it's where I'm at so I have no choice but to assess from within my own world, which will involve a concert, a theatre show, a session in a very expensive studio... I'm merely reporting that tab will not suffice for the depth of understanding and standard of performance that is required for that world. All I've asked for is some understanding that that viewpoint is given some credence. It works for you, that's fine. I'm just saying that it won't work as well as more comprehensive methods in more pressured arenas.

[jakenewmanbass]

I'm laughing to myself now because I'm sitting here practising sight reading as I have a theatre workshop for a west end production (all sight reading) and a production of little shop of horrors in the next couple of weeks, and I'm arguing the merits of my method here
It's just a view fellas....

[solo4652]

Help is at hand! Bass Tabs for Git it here: [url="http://www.bigbasstabs.com/misc_bass_tabs/git_it_from_little_shop_of_horrors.html"]http://www.bigbassta...of_horrors.html[/url] Might save you a bit of time. Don't take the TAB as gospel though - you'll have to listen to the song as well to enable you to play it to the standard required. Still, that will ensure you get pretty familiar with the song.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1405684711' post='2504318']
Help is at hand! Bass Tabs for Git it here: [url="http://www.bigbasstabs.com/misc_bass_tabs/git_it_from_little_shop_of_horrors.html"]http://www.bigbassta...of_horrors.html[/url] Might save you a bit of time. Don't take the TAB as gospel though - you'll have to listen to the song as well to enable you to play it to the standard required. Still, that will ensure you get pretty familiar with the song.


[/quote]
Which beautifully demonstrates how woefully inadequate tab is to be able to do what is required on a professional gig, I have the score and in no way is the tab as representative of what is needed. The other thing dots allow for is for me to be more than a mere imitator by copping exactly how the original is played, I can read and interpret the chart making it 'excellent' (tongue firmly in cheek there)
I completely get it that for certain arenas, tab works along with listening (as I said before which makes you require 2 disciplines) funny how despite pleading for a live and let live attitude you seem to decline to offer me the same freedom to feel the way I do about my choices.
I do take the humour but I'm sticking very firmly to the notion that if you want to cut it as a professional player then realise what is needed to reach that level. There may well be budding pro's reading these boards.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jakenewmanbass

[Dad3353]

There seems to be some mixing here of music theory (including harmony etc...) and reading from a score. One does not necessarily either preclude nor exclude the other. There are many that can read scores, but have no idea as to the harmonic interplay with the other instruments, or even the score on its own. Many church pianists can read the hymns, but could not play anything other than that which is written.
Similarly, having no reading skill at all (let alone sight-reading, which is quite another topic, really...) does not preclude a comprehensive ability to follow a chord chart, for instance, and do very well in creating bass lines. Jazz guitarists do this very well; there is a parallel debate in those quarters as to whether being able to read limits, in fact, one's creativity. I hasten to add that I do not adhere to this school of thought, but it is prevalent, and has its own reasoning and adepts.
The original topic was not about music theory, but simply tab as a medium. I would hold that 'dots', in themselves and in isolation give no more insight into the musical aspect of a composition than tab. More information, yes, but without musical theory to make sense of it, it's simply banging out the notes as they're written. The music is not in the dots.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Dad3353

[solo4652]

@ Jakenewmanbass

I am very surprised that you suggest I am denying you the freedom to feel how you do about your choices. I cannot find that in any of my posts. You and I have different views on the usefulness of TABS and I've enjoyed the debate. Nowhere have I accused you of narrowness of thinking or stubbornness, and I have certainly not asserted that you should keep your views to yourself.

"... if you want to cut it as a professional player then realise what is needed to reach that level. There may well be budding pro's reading these boards."

My view would be that was is required to play at a professional level, is to play at a professional level. As long as you produce the goods, does it really matter the process you use to do so? Live and let live, say I.

I think I'm done with this now.

Steve

Edited July 18, 2014 by solo4652

[ambient]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1405689106' post='2504366']
@ Jakenewmanbass

I am very surprised that you suggest I am denying you the freedom to feel how you do about your choices. I cannot find that in any of my posts. You and I have different views on the usefulness of TABS and I've enjoyed the debate. Nowhere have I accused you of narrowness of thinking or stubbornness, and I have certainly not asserted that you should keep your views to yourself.

"... if you want to cut it as a professional player then realise what is needed to reach that level. There may well be budding pro's reading these boards."

My view would be that was is required to play at a professional level, is to play at a professional level. As long as you produce the goods, does it really matter the process you use to do so?


Steve
[/quote]

You're extremely unlikely to arrive at a theatre, professional dep gig, or any other pro level job and be given (a) a piece of music written out in TAB, or ( be given the time to sit down with a recording of the music and the TAB to work out exactly how it goes.

TAB works for some people in some situations, but if you do aspire to be any sort of professional musician (not just a bassist), then you need to be able to read and write music.

Yes, i am aware that guys like Pino don't read music, but they're hired for what they can do, and they are definitely in a minority.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1405689106' post='2504366']
@ Jakenewmanbass

I am very surprised that you suggest I am denying you the freedom to feel how you do about your choices. I cannot find that in any of my posts. You and I have different views on the usefulness of TABS and I've enjoyed the debate. Nowhere have I accused you of narrowness of thinking or stubbornness, and I have certainly not asserted that you should keep your views to yourself.

"... if you want to cut it as a professional player then realise what is needed to reach that level. There may well be budding pro's reading these boards."

My view would be that was is required to play at a professional level, is to play at a professional level. As long as you produce the goods, does it really matter the process you use to do so? Live and let live, say I.

I think I'm done with this now.

Steve
[/quote]
ok point fairly made, maybe denial of freedom is a strong term, what I should say is that I felt that in the spirit of discussion that I would be explicit in understanding that in some circumstances tab will work for some, so I duly acknowledged that.
In return, I've had very little more than opposition and attempts at point scoring with no acknowledgement that I have a valid view (apart from Dad)
I'm not overly concerned with that because I'm secure in my position, however the hoops that one is forced to jump through to bring a point out without someone taking that as an attack on 'their way' stifles discussion and makes the conversation more akin to drowning in treacle than a lively ideas led debate. So I guess in the real world I'd just give up on conversations with those here (yourself included) who show a more narrow outlook, but in a forum I'll keep banging on as I said because I think it worthwhile to have all views represented for any potential readers who might be interested in balance.

Edited July 18, 2014 by jakenewmanbass

[Doddy]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1405689106' post='2504366']

My view would be that was is required to play at a professional level, is to play at a professional level. As long as you produce the goods, does it really matter the process you use to do so? Live and let live, say
[/quote]

It matters if you walk into a situation where you are expected to be able to read. There are many areas where it's expected that you will be able to read the music. You'll turn up and be given the music and it doesn't matter if you can play like Anthony Jackson-if you can't read the music you won't get rehired.

It's no secret that I don't like tab, but why in every discussion about this do the non readers always bring up the snobbery argument? I don't see any snobbery in people extolling the virtues of reading music over tabs.All I see is people stating the benefits. The way I look at it is that being able to read opens up a whole new world of music to play.Even if you never do a reading gig there are hundreds of books that you can study to help improve your playing and give you new ideas, which are not available to you if you can't read.
I understand the arguments about not needing to read because the rest of your band doesn't or because you don't get those kinds of gigs, but maybe the reason you don't get those kind of gigs is because you can't read therefore you don't get offered them. I've played in plenty of non reading bands too, but it didn't mean that it was not worth practicing.
I will say that I've worked with some great players who can't read and some bad players who can but, without a doubt, the best players I've worked with have all been able to read.
If you don't want to learn to read and want to use tab, that's fine...go ahead. However, I think that trying to argue with people like Jake that tab is as useful as notation is kind of a bad idea.

[solo4652]

Having put various points of view forward, and having enjoyed this debate and reading the opinions of others, I felt I had little more of value to contribute, so I was more than happy to move on.

However, I feel that I have been misrepresented by Jake's last post and I take exception to being called narrow minded on this topic. This, I feel, needs a response. I have carefully re-read all of my posts and I am genuinely amazed that what I have said has been interpreted as narrow mindedness. My post no 52, for example, seems to me to accept the pros and cons of dots and tabs.

@Doddy

You say it's no secret that you don't like tab, and in your sig you describe yourself as a "tablature disapproval specialist". Nowhere have I said that I don't like dots and I most certainly wouldn't describe myself as a "dots disapproval specialist". Good grief.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by; "...I think that trying to argue with people like Jake that tab is as useful as notation is kind of a bad idea."

I'm happy that I've had my say and contributed to this discussion. I don't feel I have much more I can add, so I don't intend to say much more. That said, I will, if I feel my opinions or views are being misinterpreted or misrepresented.

Steve

Edited July 18, 2014 by solo4652

[KingBollock]

My problem is being told that, when using tab to learn a piece of music, I cannot play that music to a competent or even excellent standard. That is factually wrong.

I understand the advantages of score over tab in certain circumstances and have no problem with that. But I personally have no desire to be in those circumstances, they aren't why I am into playing music.

I don't need score, and not being able to read it doesn't hold me back in my chosen area of music. But I am being told I am wrong.

[Doddy]

Steve
The whole 'Tablature Disapproval Specialist' thing is a long standing attempt at humour, because I've had many discussions on this subject. There's no sinister motives.

Earlier on you disagreed with a number of Jakes points and said how tab can display as much information as notation and how it can be used in a playing situation. That's fine, I've got no problem if you use tab with your band or not.However, if you were to play in the situations like Jake, or myself, does (which you might, I don't know), then the uses for tab pretty much become moot...there simply aren't any.
What my problem is, is that I don't know why guitar and bass gravitate towards tab, while pretty much any other learning musician will learn to read, even to a basic level.It's not actually that hard to learn the basics. To me, it just makes sense to learn the language both written and aural.
I just looked at that piano tab...that just made absolutely no sense to me and seemed to actually be over complicating things.

[Dad3353]

Sorry to labour the point, but I would respectfully refer all (yes, [i]all[/i]...) to the original post...

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/240653-tab/page__view__findpost__p__2496106"]Tab, Post #1...[/url]

[i]That [/i]is the context of this discussion as I read it, concerning the usefulness or otherwise to a complete, non-initiated beginner, not to a pro, nor budding pro, on any instrument. As a complete beginner, with no knowledge whatever of solfège, tab can be useful, as it is highly intuitive applied to the bass. It becomes of less use as on progresses, and is often abandoned in favour of 'dots' because of its limitations. Not all players profess nor aspire to those levels, and are happily served by tab for their whole playing career. To say that they should not retain this method, or, worse still, should never have embarked on this course, is, imho, arrogant. What serves well for one may not suit another. Once again, this 'one true path' becomes difficult to support. Those that use tab successfully are just as much musician as others, they've simply taken a different, less academic route. Why the 'bun-fight'..?

[jakenewmanbass]

I've taught people in universities,colleges, schools and privately for 25 years, of all of those students (and there are hundreds) the ones who've used tab have generally had serious holes in their understanding of the instrument, leading me to surmise that there's a problem with the system. I've tried to explain why I think that is the case but the response has been an indignant 'well that doesn't apply to me'
It's nice for those concerned that it doesn't apply to them but those thoughts don't change my experience.

[Doddy]

Let's look at it from an absolute beginner stage then.
Going from my experience on my very first lesson and the way I've since taught students,if you show them/get shown a few basic notes both on the stave and on the bass it becomes just as easy to understand as learning numbers.Even something as simple as learning open strings or the first couple of frets and where they sit on the stave gives a grounding where you begin to associate the notes with their position on the stave rather than just as fret numbers.

Why is it arrogant to suggest that people learn to read over using tab? There is often as much, maybe more,arrogance in the pro tab section-how many times over the years have you heard things like 'I don't need to read, because I have a great ear' or something similar? Like I said, there are some great players who don't read but I can honestly say that the best players I've ever played with,on any instrument, can.
What it ultimately comes down to is do what you want, I honestly don't care.However,I will always argue the case as to why it would be more beneficial to learn to read, if only to a basic level, rather than use tab.

[ambient]

See my post number 25 .

I seriously didn't realise you could play without learning to read music, I was expecting to be given music to read when I started playing with bands. It's only when I started playing with bands that I discovered that wasn't the case, and the best I could expect was to be told what chords to play over.

I was coming from being taught violin in school.

Learning to read and to know what the notes are on my bass seriously didn't hold up my progress.

[Dad3353]

I'll try shock treatment, then.

"There are none so deaf as those that won't hear."

The case of tuition with a teacher, at school or later, is fine, and I would expect, not only 'dot' reading, but also Music, as in harmony, chord substitution, rhthmic studies and more. That, for me, is fine. That is not the only way that folks learn their instrument. A pity it may be, and they are, indeed, missing out on a magnificent universe. It would be better for them if, before wanting to play along with a song, that they firstly study at least the rudiments of staves and scores. No need to go far, I agree. Well, the fact is is that many do not choose that route. For better or worse (depends where one wishes to get to...), tab serves them adequately. A qualified Music teacher using solely tab as a medium would not get many pupils through certificate exams. Not all learners have this as a goal, though. Why is this such a bad thing for the world..? It beats me, it really does.
I have in my fairly extensive collection of method books, one by Earl Gately (Mel Bay's Complete Jazz Bass Book...). There is no mention of tab in there; all is written, from the start, as dots, with an explanation on their meaning before playing the exercises. This does not prevent him from noting, on most of the exercises, the fingering (Ist position, 2nd position etc...) and in many cases the fret to use on any one string. This is tantamount to tab. It's a beginner's method. It's very good, I find. I have many others which also add these notions of fret/finger, so as to aid the student. Tab alone has its weaknesses. So has 'dots'. Why the problem with having different systems with differing degrees of completion and ease..?
I repeat: this does not imply that one can become a top orchestral dep using tab. It is not the work of the devil either, though.
I'm sure someone will shoot all this down, though. That's BC for you.

[jakenewmanbass]

back to square one... a difference of opinion is not shooting down, is it?
I think part of the problem here is the medium, if this were a face to face conversation our intentions would be more explicit, I mean no one any harm, I'm just expressing a view, but because it's in text things get lost.... bit like tab (I'm sorry, I just could not help myself)

[KingBollock]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1405715029' post='2504731']
back to square one... a difference of opinion is not shooting down, is it?
I think part of the problem here is the medium, if this were a face to face conversation our intentions would be more explicit, I mean no one any harm, I'm just expressing a view, but because it's in text things get lost.... bit like tab (I'm sorry, I just could not help myself)
[/quote]
As you alluded to earlier, I can only talk about me and my experience, but I am fairly sure I am not the only one with a similar position. The trouble with the way what you have said has come across is that it looks like you're telling people that, if they use tab and not score, then they can't be any good. And you may well be right in that I might not be any good for a band or orchestra that uses score, but we're talking about different worlds. I would be far more likely to be in a Death metal band than an orchestra, music which is often complex and might be difficult to pick out entirely by ear, and I can't count on finding score for it.

Whether it was intentional or not, you came across as arrogant, like you were saying that if you don't read score than you'll never be able to play in the musical arena that I do, and my arena is the only real one.

No one ever starts a thread slagging off score and/or it's users.

[jakenewmanbass]

What can I say to you King... it IS my experience (or has been) that players using tab are of an inferior standard, but it's just my experience so I take it as read that that does not include all tab users. I'm in the unusual position of having assessed many people's playing and I know a great player when I hear one. I just have not met many that have got great using tab, it's a mediocre system. (I have known plenty that started with tab and realised it's shortcomings when their study got serious)
By far the most effective means of learning music is a full and proper understanding of the instrument and the genre in which it's played. I generally find that the most highly idiomatically authentic players are those that have a deep aural understanding, those folk will either be readers or they won't but they are certainly good musicians.
From where I sit in the musical world I can see people of all abilities (way beyond my own btw) the readers will get the job done quickly (eg Marcus Miller is a great reader and knows why he needs to be) the ear players will likely do just as good a job just not quite so quickly. Now in my life so far the tab users I've encountered aren't even out of the blocks in that race, so I duly arrive at my conclusion, it says nothing about you or anyone else here, but what it does do is give me the right to say so, because it's my personal experience.

edit: never my intention to be arrogant but I should let you know that I'm really not offended by what people think of me.

So reading my own post back I can't for the life of me find why my own experience expressed in carefully considered level terms gives rise to such disquiet amongst the few people that have responded directly to me, I can only assume that they are not fully reading my words and just cherry picking the bits that give rise to their ire and flinging those bits back at me.... come on man read the whole sentiment.

Edited July 19, 2014 by jakenewmanbass

[Horizontalste]

I have to agree with Jake here to some extent. When I started playing I used tab exclusively and I feel it was detrimental to my progress. I knew nothing about the song in terms of chords and what key it was, I was just putting my fingers where the internet told me to.
I don't consider myself to be a musician I'm a bass player in a pub band and it was only when I decided to learn a bit of theory that the penny started to drop.
I still use tab if I need to but more often I will pick out the key, then determine what chords are used and come up with the line. I couldn't have done that before when I was reliant on tab. The new way is much more satisfying.
For what it's worth I can't sight read but kudos to those who can.


Edit# it really helps to know a bit if your going to take part in jams, just so when the guitarist shouts Bb to keep it going between songs you know what to play.
There's no tab for that!

Edited July 20, 2014 by Horizontalste